OCE/SEA players are at a major disadvantage

[Eldrath]

Right apart from the analysis of emotions in MO1 I can agree with you.

A high and unstable ping could be an advantage since you were hard to track. It still is. Aussies teleport left right and behind you.
It is NOT better than having a low ping, but it is it´s own advantage. More so in group fights than duels.

I have not heard Henrik say that high ping gives an advantage. I believe he was talking about lag switching.

So how are you going to test how lag switching will affect combat? Cause that was definetely happening in MO1.
How will you determine if someone is intentionally doing it or has a bad connection?

If someone can answer those questions I´m obviously fine with testing turning it off.
But yeah, I´d rather have a part of the pop at a disadvantage than rapant and uncontrolable cheating. Shoot me.

 

[Rhias]

Well fortunately from our discussion about turn caps we know sv can just change it later if it’s bad. Remove the lag delay see how it plays out. You can’t just kick aussies from mo especially off of incomplete information. If we’re going to test turn caps and not this I’d have a much harder time believing in the impartiality of the devs.

the risk is too huge not to at least try it out. At this point no one outside of eu is enjoying the game and even eus are upset because they’re getting hit occasionally.

worse it’s even based off of a couple assertions from Henrik.
A) that high ping had the advantage in mo 1. This is blatantly untrue, it was the JPKS, the whills, the carnivorous', hornyfurry that were feared. No one gave a crap about doofer (I'm not saying he was a bad player). Comes of a bit of a surprise to me that Perro was a high latency player but thats about it. Literally 0 examples of high ping gods. Clearly these euro players were not struggling so where does this nonsense even come from?

b) that everyone hated it in mo. Which is also fairly untrue relatively speaking since everyone actually hates this ping delay but never uttered a word about aussies outside of the occasional carnage meme.

It need to be toned down by at least an order of magnitude, 10x. Maybe it will feel impossible to parry and I won't like it, but we won't know until we try right?

Those people you listed were good, or probably even gods. But that's not what I feared. I feared CCGuardian with his fist weapon 2 shotting me from miles away.

 

[Teknique]

Right apart from the analysis of emotions in MO1 I can agree with you.

A high and unstable ping could be an advantage since you were hard to track. It still is. Aussies teleport left right and behind you.
It is NOT better than having a low ping, but it is it´s own advantage. More so in group fights than duels.

I have not heard Henrik say that high ping gives an advantage. I believe he was talking about lag switching.

So how are you going to test how lag switching will affect combat? Cause that was definetely happening in MO1.
How will you determine if someone is intentionally doing it or has a bad connection?

If someone can answer those questions I´m obviously fine with testing turning it off.
But yeah, I´d rather have a part of the pop at a disadvantage than rapant and uncontrolable cheating. Shoot me.

My memory suggests that was nearly a direct quote. Alas failed I have. I think server checks are a good idea to prevent cheating, but they need the server to wait before sending responses back to players with very low ping. At least that way I can stop feigning sympathy for these aussies.

calling everyone outside of EU a part is a bit misleading. How about a vast majority?

Those people you listed were good, or probably even gods. But that's not what I feared. I feared CCGuardian with his fist weapon 2 shotting me from miles away.

to repeat what I just said due to the late reply on my part. They need the server to wait at least 100ms before responding if its completing its entire cycle in less than 20ms due to someone having 10 ping. It really doesn't make sense to have one player completing the server check in 20 ms overall and another in 300-600 ms. That range is too extreme.

 

[Eldrath]

My memory suggests that was nearly a direct quote. Alas failed I have. I think server checks are a good idea to prevent cheating, but they need the server to wait before sending responses back to players with very low ping. At least that way I can stop feigning sympathy for these aussies.

calling everyone outside of EU a part is a bit misleading. How about a vast majority?

to repeat what I just said due to the late reply on my part. They need the server to wait at least 100ms before responding if its completing its entire cycle in less than 20ms due to someone having 10 ping. It really doesn't make sense to have one player completing the server check in 20 ms overall and another in 300-600 ms. That range is too extreme.

Ah interesting. Not sure I´ve seen that quote. So I guess Henrik does not know what he was talking about? Or do you think he and his team will risk their game so he can say "boom" when he smacks you personally?

I think east NA can probably play the game just fine, same as west EU could play it just fine on a server in NA east. Take Europe and NA east and you got a good junk of the gaming market. Unless they are interested in going for China I don´t think Aussies will get a rose in this round. They will have to mage and teleport. It´s fitting really.

So pop wise I think London is a good location. Politically I´m surprised since brexit could fuck with it, but hey - not my company. Since it´s paying their salaries I´m fairly certain SV has put some thought into the location. Especially since they moved it from france.


You didn´t address my main point, which is that this system prevents lag switching and frees up GMs from having to watch a chunk of the population constantly to detect cheaters. How to you propose to solve this? And why do you think SV has not done this?

 

[Teknique]

Ah interesting. Not sure I´ve seen that quote. So I guess Henrik does not know what he was talking about? Or do you think he and his team will risk their game so he can say "boom" when he smacks you personally?

I think east NA can probably play the game just fine, same as west EU could play it just fine on a server in NA east. Take Europe and NA east and you got a good junk of the gaming market. Unless they are interested in going for China I don´t think Aussies will get a rose in this round. They will have to mage and teleport. It´s fitting really.

So pop wise I think London is a good location. Politically I´m surprised since brexit could fuck with it, but hey - not my company. Since it´s paying their salaries I´m fairly certain SV has put some thought into the location. Especially since they moved it from france.


You didn´t address my main point, which is that this system prevents lag switching and frees up GMs from having to watch a chunk of the population constantly to detect cheaters. How to you propose to solve this? And why do you think SV has not done this?

I think henrik took feedback I had mentioned a long time ago to server check hits, since client side is easy to hack. What he has failed to do and also came to a surprise to me as well is acknowledge the massive advantage it’s giving to low ping players. I don’t know or care what anyone’s motivation for challenging teknique is, I only know the pain that occurs for all parties as a result.
if you reference my post at the start of this thread I referred to NA as unenjoyable soon to become unplayable. When the masterbation aka feedback that players like yourself are providing finally climaxes into the sticky mess of a game that we have. If henrik was aiming for chunks he wouldn’t go for a one world solution so that part is just silly.

your main point I addressed by not contesting it. I think the server check serves a useful function. Alas you’re going the route that led to the doom of many a mo 1 player. Disagree with teknique at all costs. Really what I’m suggesting is not radical have the server respond based on a more average ping not 20-600. The only way you could disagree is if you’re a political hack.

 

[barcode]

this system prevents lag switching and frees up GMs from having to watch a chunk of the population constantly to detect cheaters. How to you propose to solve this? And why do you think SV has not done this?

what all does lagswitching cause? i dont know that i know all of the effects but i'll list what i think below

1. jerky movement - i think tho if you dont provide input for a short time your character will just sit there doing nothing for a time until you start sending packets again. possible it coudl be used to escape if you have a bit of hp to soak a few hits. i.e. lagswitch and run away, people attack your 'ghost' and when you come back you're too far away for them to hit. something like this (if it can be detectable? not really sure it can be) could be mititgated by the server resetting the position on the lagswitcher.

2. undefendable attacks - this i think is the big one, back in mo people would lag out then hit you a bunch of times as you stand still on their screen. when they came back there would be a bunch of hits against you. sv's "solution" is to add a delay on the swing release that must hit the server and back before you can swing (tho i guess they added a limit to this in the latest patch but i dont have a poor enough connection to really see this).

My big problem with this is the added swing delay punishes *everyone* with a non-zero ping. the higher your ping, the worse it gets (up to a limit they put in the latest patch). this delay could be removed from the release and put on the charge instead. when you start charging an attack have the server send a code to the client, when you release and hit someone, you send the HIT response along with the code so the server allowing this to count, then that code is invalidated after so you cant queue up a bunch of hits or something.

the server *must* receieve your charge request so everyone else can see you charging at the minimum. you can only release once so you cant queue up a bunch of attacks while lagged out. I think this a far superior way to combat the lagswitch attacks than punishing everyone which is what they opted with

-barcode

 

[Kobalt]

If SV doesn't re-evaluate their one server policy (or position the server in a location that is at least favorable to almost everyone) the game will be DOA. I don't see how anyone would pay a subscription fee for substandard performance when it comes to ping. Like wise, if the combat comes down to having to result to gimmicks in order to be competitive, that too will unfortunately kill the game,

 

[Eldrath]

what all does lagswitching cause? i dont know that i know all of the effects but i'll list what i think below

1. jerky movement - i think tho if you dont provide input for a short time your character will just sit there doing nothing for a time until you start sending packets again. possible it coudl be used to escape if you have a bit of hp to soak a few hits. i.e. lagswitch and run away, people attack your 'ghost' and when you come back you're too far away for them to hit. something like this (if it can be detectable? not really sure it can be) could be mititgated by the server resetting the position on the lagswitcher.

2. undefendable attacks - this i think is the big one, back in mo people would lag out then hit you a bunch of times as you stand still on their screen. when they came back there would be a bunch of hits against you. sv's "solution" is to add a delay on the swing release that must hit the server and back before you can swing (tho i guess they added a limit to this in the latest patch but i dont have a poor enough connection to really see this).

My big problem with this is the added swing delay punishes *everyone* with a non-zero ping. the higher your ping, the worse it gets (up to a limit they put in the latest patch). this delay could be removed from the release and put on the charge instead. when you start charging an attack have the server send a code to the client, when you release and hit someone, you send the HIT response along with the code so the server allowing this to count, then that code is invalidated after so you cant queue up a bunch of hits or something.

the server *must* receieve your charge request so everyone else can see you charging at the minimum. you can only release once so you cant queue up a bunch of attacks while lagged out. I think this a far superior way to combat the lagswitch attacks than punishing everyone which is what they opted with

-barcode

Yes, that seems reasonable. I don´t know why SV went this way instead of going with the charge. Maybe it has something to do with dynamic charge timers? If possible this could be tested as well. I don´t think it will happen though since they seem happy with their result and tweaking it.

Personally I think it´s not that terrible. My internet goes to 120-200 ping whenever Netflix starts up and I get that swing delay. It´s annoying when it happens in the middle of the fight but you can adjust to it.

If SV doesn't re-evaluate their one server policy (or position the server in a location that is at least favorable to almost everyone) the game will be DOA. I don't see how anyone would pay a subscription fee for substandard performance when it comes to ping. Like wise, if the combat comes down to having to result to gimmicks in order to be competitive, that too will unfortunately kill the game,

Position seems fine to me. By everyone you mean americans?

 

[Rhias]

Yes, that seems reasonable. I don´t know why SV went this way instead of going with the charge.

The positioning is importent when realasing the swing, not when charging it.

Lag switching would still work when adding it to the charge, expect that you can't "stack" the attacks.:
charge, "Timespot", clean hit, charge, "Timestop", clean hit

 

[barcode]

Lag switching would still work when adding it to the charge, expect that you can't "stack" the attacks.:
charge, "Timespot", clean hit, charge, "Timestop", clean hit

at the minimum others would see your charge direction and be able to block. blocks are calculated server side so even tho they 'clean hit' as you say, the server will tell them that no, they were blocked instead. meanwhile they're sitting ducks as their character stands still while lagged out. at *best* its a crapshoot for the lagswitcher

-barcode

 

[Rhias]

at the minimum others would see your charge direction and be able to block. blocks are calculated server side so even tho they 'clean hit' as you say, the server will tell them that no, they were blocked instead. meanwhile they're sitting ducks as their character stands still while lagged out. at *best* its a crapshoot for the lagswitcher

-barcode

Unless they are far away from you and you don't trigger blocking.
Whatsoever, the casual players should not be punished for the abuse of few.

 

[barcode]

Unless they are far away from you and you don't trigger blocking.
Whatsoever, the casual players should not be punished for the abuse of few.

how far away? if they lagout too long, hopefully the server will simply disconnect them leaving their toon vulnerable in game.

i dont know percentages for network reliability so cant say how long someone would need to lagout for the system to reliably consider them as disconnected rather than just a network hiccup, but i'd hope anything more than a couple seconds would be have a low rate of false positives. Maybe i'm being too optimistic here but i'd think most people who can afford hardware to play the game can also afford to have a non-godawful network connection

-barcode

 

[Eldrath]

how far away? if they lagout too long, hopefully the server will simply disconnect them leaving their toon vulnerable in game.

i dont know percentages for network reliability so cant say how long someone would need to lagout for the system to reliably consider them as disconnected rather than just a network hiccup, but i'd hope anything more than a couple seconds would be have a low rate of false positives. Maybe i'm being too optimistic here but i'd think most people who can afford hardware to play the game can also afford to have a non-godawful network connection

-barcode

Well, some people like me actually get lag spikes because the connection is godawful even though I´m living in europe. Any kind of autokick will punish someone who happens to live in an area with shitty logistics. But hey, at least we will save on american tears (maybe).

The fact is that every solution that is not regional servers will fuck over someone.

 

[Kobalt]

Yes, that seems reasonable. I don´t know why SV went this way instead of going with the charge. Maybe it has something to do with dynamic charge timers? If possible this could be tested as well. I don´t think it will happen though since they seem happy with their result and tweaking it.

Personally I think it´s not that terrible. My internet goes to 120-200 ping whenever Netflix starts up and I get that swing delay. It´s annoying when it happens in the middle of the fight but you can adjust to it.



Position seems fine to me. By everyone you mean americans?

North Americans, South Americans, Oceanic.... you know, the rest of the world. Even Mortal Royale had a NA server lol. If they intent is only to have one server located in europe, they might as well have a disclaimer up saying so. No one that I know what's to play a full loot directional combat pvp game with ~200 ping on a european server.

 

[Eldrath]

North Americans, South Americans, Oceanic.... you know, the rest of the world. Even Mortal Royale had a NA server lol. If they intent is only to have one server located in europe, they might as well have a disclaimer up saying so. No one that I know what's to play a full loot directional combat pvp game with ~200 ping on a european server.

Right, and NA east server is gonna make australiens somehow competetive? That´s a joke. If you move it to LA or Texas eastern Europeans are gonna be in the same position as australiens are in now. "the rest of the world" is only really interesting as far as gaming markets go and with either west europe or NA east you get a good chunk of that. SV went for europe, which is understandable since they are a european company.

They do have that disclaimer in the FAQ, saying it´s a one-server model. Maybe it should say where it´s located.

I´m sure SV, the community and me personally will be heartbroken if you and your friend don´t play. You can play all the other full loot pvp MMO RPG first person games.

 

[Pierre]

how far away? if they lagout too long, hopefully the server will simply disconnect them leaving their toon vulnerable in game.

i dont know percentages for network reliability so cant say how long someone would need to lagout for the system to reliably consider them as disconnected rather than just a network hiccup, but i'd hope anything more than a couple seconds would be have a low rate of false positives. Maybe i'm being too optimistic here but i'd think most people who can afford hardware to play the game can also afford to have a non-godawful network connection

-barcode

Well, some people like me actually get lag spikes because the connection is godawful even though I´m living in europe. Any kind of autokick will punish someone who happens to live in an area with shitty logistics. But hey, at least we will save on american tears (maybe).

The fact is that every solution that is not regional servers will fuck over someone.

Perhaps they could disconnect players if their ping remains high for 2 minutes? This is reasonable enough to accommodate those with lagspikes yet boot those with consistently high pings.

 

[Kobalt]

Right, and NA east server is gonna make australiens somehow competetive? That´s a joke. If you move it to LA or Texas eastern Europeans are gonna be in the same position as australiens are in now. "the rest of the world" is only really interesting as far as gaming markets go and with either west europe or NA east you get a good chunk of that. SV went for europe, which is understandable since they are a european company.

They do have that disclaimer in the FAQ, saying it´s a one-server model. Maybe it should say where it´s located.

I´m sure SV, the community and me personally will be heartbroken if you and your friend don´t play. You can play all the other full loot pvp MMO RPG first person games.

Are you going to be equally heartbroken when MO2 sinks like MO1 population wise because of latency performance among other things? Australians get better ping to contintental US than they do where ever the server is positioned. MO2 has an uphill mountain to climb. First it's got all the baggage and bad publicity of MO1 to work past, second it's combat is a jank fest, and third the server is located in europe. On top of that the developers are tacking on a monthly fee in a climate of games where monthly fees are usually a no go.

MO2 is already going to be a niche game, but you put all those barriers in front of it and who the hell is exactly going to play this game? Are they a european company making a game primarily for europeans, or a european company making a game for the "masses" like henrik has said in the past.

The 20 - 30 so on people who are casually play MO1 would disagree with you.

 

[Eldrath]

Are you going to be equally heartbroken when MO2 sinks like MO1 population wise because of latency performance among other things? Australians get better ping to contintental US than they do where ever the server is positioned. MO2 has an uphill mountain to climb. First it's got all the baggage and bad publicity of MO1 to work past, second it's combat is a jank fest, and third the server is located in europe. On top of that the developers are tacking on a monthly fee in a climate of games where monthly fees are usually a no go.

MO2 is already going to be a niche game, but you put all those barriers in front of it and who the hell is exactly going to play this game? Are they a european company making a game primarily for europeans, or a european company making a game for the "masses" like henrik has said in the past.

The 20 - 30 so on people who are casually play MO1 would disagree with you.

"amongst other things" is a weird statement. I believe over half the people I played with were from the US and none of them complained about latency other than lag switching and the like. If you get into the game having bad latency usually won´t cause anyone to quit. There were problems far greater with MO1 than latency.

Australia has what, 3 billion yearly in terms of game sales? That´s half of what germany alone makes. It´s not a big market. So not really worth considering in terms of location of the server. The money is in the EU and US. Those are the "masses". London serves just as well as US east.

Again, if the server is moved the problem is only put on other players. It´s fair enough if you want to have an advantage in the game rather than dirty europeans. Just say so and stop pretending you do it "for the good of the game".

What you are proposing is not going to save MO2 from being niche. Any gank fest that exists is niche, even DayZ, Ark and the like. Being niche does not automatically mean it´s gonna tank. SV is running a lean team otherwise they would have gone under long ago.

Lastly I like to point out that this discussion is pointless. There are a few set parameters to this, and the server location is one of them. So personally I´ve choosen to make suggestions that makes combat as best as possible with those in mind. Wishing to change those (one world, one server, location) will not help improving on the game. It´s just bitching and moaning.

Who are you in-game btw?

 

[Teknique]

"amongst other things" is a weird statement. I believe over half the people I played with were from the US and none of them complained about latency other than lag switching and the like. If you get into the game having bad latency usually won´t cause anyone to quit. There were problems far greater with MO1 than latency.

Australia has what, 3 billion yearly in terms of game sales? That´s half of what germany alone makes. It´s not a big market. So not really worth considering in terms of location of the server. The money is in the EU and US. Those are the "masses". London serves just as well as US east.

Again, if the server is moved the problem is only put on other players. It´s fair enough if you want to have an advantage in the game rather than dirty europeans. Just say so and stop pretending you do it "for the good of the game".

What you are proposing is not going to save MO2 from being niche. Any gank fest that exists is niche, even DayZ, Ark and the like. Being niche does not automatically mean it´s gonna tank. SV is running a lean team otherwise they would have gone under long ago.

Lastly I like to point out that this discussion is pointless. There are a few set parameters to this, and the server location is one of them. So personally I´ve choosen to make suggestions that makes combat as best as possible with those in mind. Wishing to change those (one world, one server, location) will not help improving on the game. It´s just bitching and moaning.

Who are you in-game btw?

by your logic it would be more rational to have the server in US east, to capture US west, us east and western Europe. Since eastern europe market doesn't matter.

I actually don't care to have an advantage, I just don't want to have a disadvantage.

I agree with you on the last point, but from my point of view you only want to cement the EU advantage, destroy group combat and all other systems of MO, not make anything better. Again we'll have to wait to see what this magic mechanic that supposed to make everything ok will be.

 

[Eldrath]

by your logic it would be more rational to have the server in US east, to capture US west, us east and western Europe. Since eastern europe market doesn't matter.

I actually don't care to have an advantage, I just don't want to have a disadvantage.

I agree with you on the last point, but from my point of view you only want to cement the EU advantage, destroy group combat and all other systems of MO, not make anything better. Again we'll have to wait to see what this magic mechanic that supposed to make everything ok will be.

Eastern european market is bigger than you think I believe. Also countries like russia and turkey are EU adjacent. But it´s neither here nor there in the end since we are not the ones earning our living on the success of MO2.

As I explained above, someone has to have the disadvantage in a one server game. Deal with it.

I don´t really know why I would want that since I´ll probably play with a bunch of US players. And I main mage. So ... No? Any suggestion I made has had this in mind. I mean your hole stik is based on me supporting animation limitation to prevent shitty looking animation abuse. Which you argue is a valid "system". You literally argue that abusing the games graphics to the point where they break is a valid way of designing a competetive game. I mean ... uff