Myrland could be a nice place,

Callenmore

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Feb 7, 2023
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but it isn't because, as in real life, there aren't police (guards) everywhere. Notice how the trade brokers and crafting stations have guards - were these locations Not posted with protection, there would be hardly any trade at all, and Myrland would be entirely a 'Mad Max' scenario, not just the wilds.
I find it bitterly shameful that it takes a game like this to illustrate the horrible nature of Humankind - a Machiavellian realization, if you will - to prove that "we can't have nice things". And why not? - because some little shit will find it find it enjoyable to destroy or grief, rather than work towards building and creating. And when I say "little shits", I mean nearly half of the population, in my experience, of Mortal Online 2.
Yes, Nave, like Earth, requires invincible guards (police/military) to keep decency and flourishment to health and trade. What fitting art-imitating-life this game is. And, in my limited knowledge of gamers, developers, etc., I see that the answer to many of their own economic flourishments aka player retention and attrition is to, in fact, add More guards, else the PvPers would simply grief everyone away until the game was barren, desolate, and shut down ~ and this is in a game advertised as full loot!

Myrland could be a nice place with unprecedented social interactions in between towns, healthy trade, and friendly, bustling villages - I just finished reading of the adventures of a beer brewer, some Bartfast fellow ~ that's incredible and immersive, truly; in my opinion, an epic of what this game has to offer. We all know the graphics are unreal, the servers holding nearly 2,000, and the game map extensive.

Unfortunately, as in nearly every other online game I've witnessed my son play (and he's played them all it seems), I see the stark contrast of toxic behavior against the stream of respect manifest itself more and more. There simply are little to no ramifications to shitty behavior (banning I have seen across the spectrum, akin to jailtime in rea life). In fact, it's not just games - it's all of online interaction, and, again, it's due to there not being enough "guards".

Humans have incredible minds - they create life-like fantasy simulations of the most amazing kind, technology allowing us to interact from one side of the planet to another - and y'all use it to trash talk and button smash like little sweats and kill, destroy, and cause others to rage quit because that's the type of behavior that's been done to you yourself; an endless cycle of toxic regurgitation given an environment to thrive because it's not illegal to be a jerk, or because it's somehow imprinted within us that it's a dog-eat-dog world.
The redeeming factor for Myrland, is that there Are some out there that honor the ideals of respect and growth. Perhaps in a world where 'the guards' aren't everywhere, its inhabitants could unite under the banner of these ideals and prove Machiavelli wrong, that it is not fear that must command Man, but love - though this is unlikely given the nature of real life/real life player's avatar being an extension of themselves.

Yes, Myrland could be a Haven, and, perhaps interestingly, could actually set a precedent on how to live for the rest of the real world, if lines were drawn and Guilds fought to protect the essence of decency, as opposed to territory or castles. In this case, the territory would be goodness itself, and fighting would not be relegated to mere decapitation, but also, and more preferably, through teaching other gamers how to actually enjoy a game by focusing on encouragement and positives.

The Gods only know just how amazing a place Myrland could really be..
 

Rhodri_Taliesin

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May 29, 2020
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Wandering the road
Mom said it's my turn to post about the human condition exemplified in Mortal Online ( and MO2).

Welcome to why people hated red guilds, random player killers, and naked griefer thieves in the first game. Good thing I dodged it this time.
 

Melhisedek

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Dec 3, 2021
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Tindrem
but it isn't because, as in real life, there aren't police (guards) everywhere. Notice how the trade brokers and crafting stations have guards - were these locations Not posted with protection, there would be hardly any trade at all, and Myrland would be entirely a 'Mad Max' scenario, not just the wilds.
I find it bitterly shameful that it takes a game like this to illustrate the horrible nature of Humankind - a Machiavellian realization, if you will - to prove that "we can't have nice things". And why not? - because some little shit will find it find it enjoyable to destroy or grief, rather than work towards building and creating. And when I say "little shits", I mean nearly half of the population, in my experience, of Mortal Online 2.
Yes, Nave, like Earth, requires invincible guards (police/military) to keep decency and flourishment to health and trade. What fitting art-imitating-life this game is. And, in my limited knowledge of gamers, developers, etc., I see that the answer to many of their own economic flourishments aka player retention and attrition is to, in fact, add More guards, else the PvPers would simply grief everyone away until the game was barren, desolate, and shut down ~ and this is in a game advertised as full loot!

Myrland could be a nice place with unprecedented social interactions in between towns, healthy trade, and friendly, bustling villages - I just finished reading of the adventures of a beer brewer, some Bartfast fellow ~ that's incredible and immersive, truly; in my opinion, an epic of what this game has to offer. We all know the graphics are unreal, the servers holding nearly 2,000, and the game map extensive.

Unfortunately, as in nearly every other online game I've witnessed my son play (and he's played them all it seems), I see the stark contrast of toxic behavior against the stream of respect manifest itself more and more. There simply are little to no ramifications to shitty behavior (banning I have seen across the spectrum, akin to jailtime in rea life). In fact, it's not just games - it's all of online interaction, and, again, it's due to there not being enough "guards".

Humans have incredible minds - they create life-like fantasy simulations of the most amazing kind, technology allowing us to interact from one side of the planet to another - and y'all use it to trash talk and button smash like little sweats and kill, destroy, and cause others to rage quit because that's the type of behavior that's been done to you yourself; an endless cycle of toxic regurgitation given an environment to thrive because it's not illegal to be a jerk, or because it's somehow imprinted within us that it's a dog-eat-dog world.
The redeeming factor for Myrland, is that there Are some out there that honor the ideals of respect and growth. Perhaps in a world where 'the guards' aren't everywhere, its inhabitants could unite under the banner of these ideals and prove Machiavelli wrong, that it is not fear that must command Man, but love - though this is unlikely given the nature of real life/real life player's avatar being an extension of themselves.

Yes, Myrland could be a Haven, and, perhaps interestingly, could actually set a precedent on how to live for the rest of the real world, if lines were drawn and Guilds fought to protect the essence of decency, as opposed to territory or castles. In this case, the territory would be goodness itself, and fighting would not be relegated to mere decapitation, but also, and more preferably, through teaching other gamers how to actually enjoy a game by focusing on encouragement and positives.

The Gods only know just how amazing a place Myrland could really be..
if there were no evil and destruction in the world, then no one would appreciate good and creation, there should be a counterbalance in everything
 
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Callenmore

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As a Libra, I can certainly appreciate your response Melhisedek. I agree that were there to be no evil and only good, then there would be an imbalance resulting in boredom, perhaps - not a good thing. However, concerning this game, and moreso, in real life, is that the scales are disproportioned with too much chaos/evil weighing the more.
Unequivocally, too much is a bad thing I agree - but here in Nave, evil exists more than good does.
 
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Callenmore

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Thank you Rhodri. For my part, I think the ability to murder or cause another harm in the game Is a good thing - choice is always a good thing - I just, wonder what the world would be like (Nave as well as Earth) if we all chose Good more often than Evil.
 
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Jackdstripper

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The nature of a pvp game is to promote strife between players. That is why the game is created. That is what pvp players seek out and play. For those looking for that experience, this is a “very nice” place.

You arent looking for a pvp game. You are looking for a peaceful pve world where everyone is made to get along. This is not the droid you are looking for.


Aside from that, it is a well know fact that without enforceable rule of law human nature devolves into exploitation of the week by the strong. Violence becomes the law. This is the reason why civilized nations can only function where there is strong and just enforcement of the law. Otherwise its constant violence and chaos with endless killing and exploitation. People don’t just police themselves. They never have and never will. People kill each other until the strong ones make everyone else follow their rules. Thats how lawlessness works.

Violence and chaos is what pvp players revel in. Its what MO is made to provide.
 
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Callenmore

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Thank you Jack for your feedback.
You're wrong in presuming what I'm looking for though; what I seek is realism, and MO2 brings that. Were I to play a PVE only game, there would be no realism, everyone being forced to play one way.
I think a certain way: I see Nave as not as nice as it could be given the potential for teamwork, building, and order, with the realism of 'brute orc-like' chaotic murder an exciting edge, but not ruling most of the world; the scales are tipped too far into chaos.

I also don't believe that all Humankind must have obedience to hierarchy in order to live. It's a curiosity that I'm imagining Nave to lead in that potential proof.
 
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Gnidex

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Feb 2, 2022
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Were I to describe the inhabitants of Myrland, I would say they're under a dark spell, making them more prone to violent behavior.
If you look at the situation closer you'll find people are more opportunistic than evil or aggressive. If you meet a solo dude in the world chances are you'll have a friendly interaction. If you meet two or more while being solo the chances of the encounter being friendly are way smaller since they know they can basically take you down.
 
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Jackdstripper

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Thank you Jack for your feedback.
You're wrong in presuming what I'm looking for though; what I seek is realism, and MO2 brings that. Were I to play a PVE only game, there would be no realism, everyone being forced to play one way.
I think a certain way: I see Nave as not as nice as it could be given the potential for teamwork, building, and order, with the realism of 'brute orc-like' chaotic murder an exciting edge, but not ruling most of the world; the scales are tipped too far into chaos.

I also don't believe that all Humankind must have obedience to hierarchy in order to live. It's a curiosity that I'm imagining Nave to lead in that potential proof.
I respect your view of this game, but it is not accurate. There is not much realism. Magic is not realism. Healing is not realism. Minotaurs, sators and half the creatures of MO are not realism. Reviving is not realism. Necromancy is not realism. How can you use the word realism? This is a fantasy game with somewhat realistic melee combat. Nothing more.


Also, please show me a real life example of any group of humans that doesnt follow some sort of rules enforced by some type of hierarchy. And im not talking about a bunch of hippies gathering for a month in the woods to party. An actual living, breathing and functioning community that has no rules and no one in charge.
 

Callenmore

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Well Jack, off the top of my head, I recall the island that Pythagoras was on and lived with was a place of logic and decency. I know of the present day Amish who have settlements based on common hard work that don't require government ~ but honestly, we could talk for hours on such fascinating subjects (of which I'm never opposed), so I'll leave these two examples you requested to address your view that my view of realism is not accurate.
How can I use the word realism in relationship with high fantasy? Well, that's, as I see it, because in whichever world one exists, there is the commonality of life and death and the struggle of surviving in it. To me, Nave is as realistic as any game I've played - immersion being another synonym for realism; it isn't perfect, but it's not bad. To be able to see Life and Death from the eyes of a Navian, as we are from the 1st person perspective, is at least a step in the realism.
 
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Jackdstripper

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Well Jack, off the top of my head, I recall the island that Pythagoras was on and lived with was a place of logic and decency. I know of the present day Amish who have settlements based on common hard work that don't require government ~ but honestly, we could talk for hours on such fascinating subjects (of which I'm never opposed), so I'll leave these two examples you requested to address your view that my view of realism is not accurate.
How can I use the word realism in relationship with high fantasy? Well, that's, as I see it, because in whichever world one exists, there is the commonality of life and death and the struggle of surviving in it. To me, Nave is as realistic as any game I've played - immersion being another synonym for realism; it isn't perfect, but it's not bad. To be able to see Life and Death from the eyes of a Navian, as we are from the 1st person perspective, is at least a step in the realism.
The Amish have plenty of laws, and their elders are very much in charge. In fact they have so many rules they even tell you what you can and cannot wear. You just have never googled Amish laws and punishments. Being Amish is nothing like you imagine.

Pytagoras lived in ancient Greece and there were plenty of laws back then. Plenty of kings with plenty of hierarchy.

What you fantasize about doesn’t exist. People don't just magically get along. Wherever people congregate laws and rules have to be made, and somebody has to enforce them.

Immersion is not a synonym for realism. I can be fully immersed in something completely unrealistic. Its 2 completely different things. You just making stuff up now.

I hate to break it to you but you live in a fantasy world and are here trying to tell me that my fantasy game is realism 😉.
 
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Jybwee

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I've ALWAYS LOVED dissecting MO interaction (macro/micro) with relation to real world social interaction.
But the core is the unbridled freedom of the player, imo. MO1 much more so, and (of course) much more so than RL. How one proceeds with that freedom. Bringing with them all the personal real world baggage/experience...adding on an extra layer of anonymity, but also some confining borders of the game.
With all the (peaceful utopian) possibilities you mentioned.
I was watching this vid yesterday about some Nietzsche ideas
Really interesting in relation to the game. The warrior type of psyche (beyond good and evil) just playing a PvP game that's completely fantasy and destroying anything weaker than them. The priestly moral type. The noble or plebian. The religious type that honors pity. The origin or depth of a conciseness or empathy, morals.
Anyway, just a random vid i watched yesterday.. but just fun to reflect on what you experience in MO.

MO is no where near a perfect petri dish for observing some radical philosophy ideas.. .but it's sure fun, :)
 
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finegamingconnoisseur

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but it isn't because, as in real life, there aren't police (guards) everywhere. Notice how the trade brokers and crafting stations have guards - were these locations Not posted with protection, there would be hardly any trade at all, and Myrland would be entirely a 'Mad Max' scenario, not just the wilds.
I find it bitterly shameful that it takes a game like this to illustrate the horrible nature of Humankind - a Machiavellian realization, if you will - to prove that "we can't have nice things". And why not? - because some little shit will find it find it enjoyable to destroy or grief, rather than work towards building and creating. And when I say "little shits", I mean nearly half of the population, in my experience, of Mortal Online 2.
Yes, Nave, like Earth, requires invincible guards (police/military) to keep decency and flourishment to health and trade. What fitting art-imitating-life this game is. And, in my limited knowledge of gamers, developers, etc., I see that the answer to many of their own economic flourishments aka player retention and attrition is to, in fact, add More guards, else the PvPers would simply grief everyone away until the game was barren, desolate, and shut down ~ and this is in a game advertised as full loot!

Myrland could be a nice place with unprecedented social interactions in between towns, healthy trade, and friendly, bustling villages - I just finished reading of the adventures of a beer brewer, some Bartfast fellow ~ that's incredible and immersive, truly; in my opinion, an epic of what this game has to offer. We all know the graphics are unreal, the servers holding nearly 2,000, and the game map extensive.

Unfortunately, as in nearly every other online game I've witnessed my son play (and he's played them all it seems), I see the stark contrast of toxic behavior against the stream of respect manifest itself more and more. There simply are little to no ramifications to shitty behavior (banning I have seen across the spectrum, akin to jailtime in rea life). In fact, it's not just games - it's all of online interaction, and, again, it's due to there not being enough "guards".

Humans have incredible minds - they create life-like fantasy simulations of the most amazing kind, technology allowing us to interact from one side of the planet to another - and y'all use it to trash talk and button smash like little sweats and kill, destroy, and cause others to rage quit because that's the type of behavior that's been done to you yourself; an endless cycle of toxic regurgitation given an environment to thrive because it's not illegal to be a jerk, or because it's somehow imprinted within us that it's a dog-eat-dog world.
The redeeming factor for Myrland, is that there Are some out there that honor the ideals of respect and growth. Perhaps in a world where 'the guards' aren't everywhere, its inhabitants could unite under the banner of these ideals and prove Machiavelli wrong, that it is not fear that must command Man, but love - though this is unlikely given the nature of real life/real life player's avatar being an extension of themselves.

Yes, Myrland could be a Haven, and, perhaps interestingly, could actually set a precedent on how to live for the rest of the real world, if lines were drawn and Guilds fought to protect the essence of decency, as opposed to territory or castles. In this case, the territory would be goodness itself, and fighting would not be relegated to mere decapitation, but also, and more preferably, through teaching other gamers how to actually enjoy a game by focusing on encouragement and positives.

The Gods only know just how amazing a place Myrland could really be..
I remember reading in history class back in high school a commentator said that war brings out the best and worst of humanity. We then read about the unspeakable atrocities committed by various empires, nations, tribes and individuals from different parts of the world from every culture. As well as the selfless sacrifice and altruism of the same shown to complete strangers, fellow soldiers, enemy combatants and of course to one's own kin and friends.

What I've learned from those history lessons, our modern history and playing games like MO1, MO2 and EVE Online is that we as a species have not changed very much over the course of millennia. There are still those who seek to destroy and profit from the loss of others for different reasons, these we are all quite familiar with by now due to their detrimental impact.

What I find is truly inspirational, and I guess this is more to your point in the final paragraph of your original post, is just how better the world is at times. I've literally had random players show up out of nowhere after I died due to pkers (criminal players) ganking me or me making a mistake like accidentally hitting a npc in town. They pick up my belongings and return it to me or stand guard over my loot bag until I return to pick it up.

Then there was that time not too long ago when two guilds that didn't like each other even went as far as to put aside their differences just to help a lone underdog when two pkers decided to gang up on me:

 
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Callenmore

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Feb 7, 2023
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These are great insights to read, thank you everyone. I enjoy getting your thoughts on the matter. This is, clearly, a potentially complex subject matter, injecting philosophy into game material, and I find it tremendously fascinating to read and discuss. Your mention Jybwee, of Nietzche, reminds me of Might Is Right by pseudonym writer Ragnar Redbeard - a fierce and dominating will mindset that, indeed, has it's logical points; no doubt intriguing to discuss long term at the least.
And thank you Finegamingconnoisseur, I find the analysis of the evolution of Human nature to hold a core truth from the writings of Jean Jacques Rousseau's Discourse on the Origin of Inequality to sum it up nicely.

Concerning Myrland, and "utopia", I whole heartedly grant that subjectivity is reality ~ the "utopia" of a blood thirsty 'Ragnarian' Risar or Thursar being *completely* contrasted to my own character's Callenmore's (a protector and builder)... I suppose this is the so called "eternal war".
 

Callenmore

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Feb 7, 2023
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I'm sure if he were alive today, he'd definitely roll an Oghmir and build a little house just north of Tindrem. He'd love this game.
 

Rhodri_Taliesin

Active member
May 29, 2020
124
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Wandering the road
The nature of a pvp game is to promote strife between players. That is why the game is created. That is what pvp players seek out and play. For those looking for that experience, this is a “very nice” place.

You arent looking for a pvp game. You are looking for a peaceful pve world where everyone is made to get along. This is not the droid you are looking for.


Aside from that, it is a well know fact that without enforceable rule of law human nature devolves into exploitation of the week by the strong. Violence becomes the law. This is the reason why civilized nations can only function where there is strong and just enforcement of the law. Otherwise its constant violence and chaos with endless killing and exploitation. People don’t just police themselves. They never have and never will. People kill each other until the strong ones make everyone else follow their rules. Thats how lawlessness works.

Violence and chaos is what pvp players revel in. Its what MO is made to provide.
More on this note Jack, I think there is something to be said for the fact that the game mechanics just don't support trying to be a law-bringer in this world. In the real world you have prisons, and permadeath. In MO1 you had "stat loss" that capped out at 15% which isn't much of a deterrent, and I guess banishment from towns where guards were at play, however that latter point wasn't as much of an issue with player built storage sheds/banks and red towns/camps to store things at.
It's why even if the "good guys" won the day on the battlefield in MO1, it wasn't a lasting victory, and more often than not was simply pyrrhic as the "red guilds" got what they wanted out of a fight and the "blue guilds" overcame those odds at great cost and then got saddled with the additional costs of rebuilding from the destruction.

Furthermore and on a personal note, I think I always just resented these red-tagged players presenting themselves as "1337 PeeVeePee'ers" when the reality is that they just ganked and gangbanged without any thought to actual competition. They didn't want a fight, they wanted someone to bully.
At least in the days of old AQ, and while not always true, there were times where if they had you alone or greatly outnumbered, they could offer you the chance to fight for life and gear 1 to 1 against one of their own.
I've gone toe to toe with Warmonger and Cyde, and after beating the former- Eladriel tried to attack me in the back, only to lose to me as well. The rest of them allowed me to go my own way after honorably fighting one and beating the dishonorable attack of another.
To me, that was what an honest PvPer was about, they wanted a challenge- not just pure 1v1's but in the sense that there's no honor or challenge killing two or three players with a 15+ group. There's no challenge or competition in killing a solo player with a squad of guys. That's not PvP, that's just bullying.
 
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