Mounted

[a.out]

MC will be implemented hopefully...

Spoiler

NEVER!

Have a nice day!

IMHO this depends on how good they can be countered. Having to hit a mount 5 billion times and a forever broken spear stance doesn't help. They also changed the way horses behaved some time ago from somewhat having their own head to 100% obedient automatons. If horses were irritated/panicking when hit this obviously can be real fun ! Imagine losing control over your horse running randomly into the Jungle.

 

[ThaBadMan]

I thought that was what Bull Horses were for-- the obese, and the Thursar?

True. Slow, strong and durable. Like they where pre breeding.

 

[Rulant]

Fixing spear stance is another good way of helping the balance and adds other ways of gameplay I totally agree with that and the spear stance should do massive damage to horses if not outright kill a full galloping horse and if it hits player it should hit hard calculating the speed and weapon and weapon skill into it. but I think you were joking about your first sentence about 50kg plus mounteds but keep in mind the cavalry units were heavily armored and their horses were also armored to charge with weight. So I think if they add spear stance and more arrow dmg to horses and couple that with other damage types that can also dismount if hit hard enough I think they should also add more knockdown damage calculating the character+horse weight and speed in impact and that would also be a good change imo but it needs to be done as a total not just one part.

Weaker breeds of horses should have a harder time wearing heavy barding and slow down if wearing anything to heavy whereas bulls and probably jungles, since they're probably jacked from walking all over the hills and rough terrain, to not have speed penalty with heavier barding. Read my above posts for my thoughts on the barding itself. Any piercing damage should do more to horses so if you don't at least have a guy with a long and pointed sword it's gonna be harder to deal with than if you have an axe. But all other weapons should still do a decent amount of damage to where you can fight them just piercing gets higher dmg, except bows that aren't longbows or xbows if they add them.

 

[Valoran]

There's no way I can be bothered reading all of this thread from scratch, so i'll simply say that I put forward the Health, Speed and Strength triangle mentality, that horses should never possess all three points of the triangle.

If a horse is very fast, it should not also have very high health and high strength/carry weight.
If a horse has very high strength, it should not also have very high speed.


Observing real horses reveals quite quickly that they take on different forms when bred for specific purposes, such as racing or pulling carts on a farm.

Regardless of the realism aspect however, it just makes more sense to be balanced properly from a gameplay perspective.


At the same time, the most "recent" patch to mounteds in MO1 that limited the ability to use heavy weapons while mounted was also very good, as it made no logical sense whatsoever to be wielding a sledgehammer in one hand while on horseback.

 

[Rhias]

At the same time, the most "recent" patch to mounteds in MO1 that limited the ability to use heavy weapons while mounted was also very good, as it made no logical sense whatsoever to be wielding a sledgehammer in one hand while on horseback.

In my opinion the issue was not that they could use heavy weapons, but that they could spam it.
If you could use a weapon on foot while staying still and loosing no stamina, you were also able to use it on mounted loosing no stamina.
In my opinion charging a weapon while riding a horse should drain as much stamina as it would drain when you are charging and running with it on foot.
That way there would be a balance of heavy vs light weapon without banning any weapon.
Light weapons on MC could be spammed, but do only low damage per hit, or heavy weapons could only be used once, hitting hard, and then require a break to regenerate stamina or switching to a lighter weapon.

 

[Rhodri_Taliesin]

If horses were irritated/panicking when hit this obviously can be real fun ! Imagine losing control over your horse running randomly into the Jungle.

I can imagine it, everyone hated it. Horse brain was trash, always was trash, and always will be trash. That's why SV removed it.

I'm guessing you're newer and weren't around for that time it did exist. Long story short, everyone hated it.

 

[Eldrath]

I can imagine it, everyone hated it. Horse brain was trash, always was trash, and always will be trash. That's why SV removed it.

I'm guessing you're newer and weren't around for that time it did exist. Long story short, everyone hated it.

Not everyone. There were a few valiant mounted player who actually liked a system that does not equate a horse with a go-cart in space. But since kids were crying about how it was too hard instead of fixing it SV implemented something a toddler could use.

 

[Rhodri_Taliesin]

Not everyone. There were a few valiant mounted player who actually liked a system that does not equate a horse with a go-cart in space. But since kids were crying about how it was too hard instead of fixing it SV implemented something a toddler could use.

You have WAAAAAAY too much faith in SV's capability of coding and "fixing" an AI. Also I like how you prefaced your statement with "a few valiant mounted players who agreed with me" as if it's something noble or moral to enjoy a broken system.

The concept could make sense in theory but where the metal and the meat converge is where things get screwy, and one thing I think a lot of us in general can agree on is that RNG is mostly bad. Consistency in a game like this is important.

Selective realism. "cavalary were stronger irl". They also didn't accelerate as if they were attached to rocket engines.

Selective exaggeration. Cavalry never accelerated as if they were attached to rocket engines; however I'd like to point out that I'm skeptical of your actual exposure to real horses or how fast they can move from a neutral pace.

 

[a.out]

I can imagine it, everyone hated it. Horse brain was trash, always was trash, and always will be trash. That's why SV removed it.

I'm guessing you're newer and weren't around for that time it did exist. Long story short, everyone hated it.

Well I know people hated it. I hated that people hated it. It was a much needed drawback. It obviously needed tweaks, but getting rid of it completely was the wrong decision, IMHO.

 

[Eldrath]

You have WAAAAAAY too much faith in SV's capability of coding and "fixing" an AI. Also I like how you prefaced your statement with "a few valiant mounted players who agreed with me" as if it's something noble or moral to enjoy a broken system.

The concept could make sense in theory but where the metal and the meat converge is where things get screwy, and one thing I think a lot of us in general can agree on is that RNG is mostly bad. Consistency in a game like this is important.



Selective exaggeration. Cavalry never accelerated as if they were attached to rocket engines; however I'd like to point out that I'm skeptical of your actual exposure to real horses or how fast they can move from a neutral pace.

Well, I just wanted to point out that the system actually did have a steeper learning curve. If I didn´t have faith in SV ability to make a better system in MO2 I wouldn´t be here.

They are building it from scratch, so they could implement a system with:
1. limits to controls, no a steering wheel horse
2. momentum, no stoping and turning on a dime
3. input lag to simulate the horse thinking about your input (note it should do what you tell it too, just with a little latency)

RNG by itself is not bad, it depends on implementation. It´s certainly better than threshold systems where you have to have certain skills and materials to compete. That´s just shit game design for a sandbox. Dismounting f.e. should be skillbased rather than wealth based.

Anyway, the harder you make it to land a hit with a horse, the higher that damage could be. Different horse types could handle differently. It gives a lot of variety compared to the most recent system.

 

[Rhodri_Taliesin]

Well I know people hated it. I hated that people hated it. It was a much needed drawback. It obviously needed tweaks, but getting rid of it completely was the wrong decision, IMHO.

People hated it because it was essentially RNG enabled crowd control; The same hate applied to dice rolls out of the saddle via bow attacks because once upon a time everyone carried a bow when they knew 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 shots, even at the lowest damage value, would throw a rider from their saddle.

You're recollecting a shitty game concept with rose tinted glasses at best, or at worst being intentionally and maliciously disingenuous to try and sway readers into a blanket nerf on mounts.

The reality is that anything at any time (even crossing a node line) could and would cause your horse to lose control and run you into a river or lake to drown you, or over a cliff to die from fall damage, or into a crowd of your enemies which would kill you.

You know why I hated it? I lived it, and I remember clearly because at that point in the game's life cycle, I was one of a handful of mounted players who played in spite of horse brain, because almost universally it was agreed that mounted was broken/useless because of the same horse brain. I remember the day they removed it and reworked the attack animations to be more adaptive to camera angle rather than fixed which made it so much better.


"It obviously needed tweaks" yeah, everything does, and the problem that always occurred was SV, who was incapable of fixing it, hence why it was scrapped permanently.

 

[Rhodri_Taliesin]

Well, I just wanted to point out that the system actually did have a steeper learning curve. If I didn´t have faith in SV ability to make a better system in MO2 I wouldn´t be here.

They are building it from scratch, so they could implement a system with:
1. limits to controls, no a steering wheel horse
2. momentum, no stoping and turning on a dime
3. input lag to simulate the horse thinking about your input (note it should do what you tell it too, just with a little latency)

RNG by itself is not bad, it depends on implementation. It´s certainly better than threshold systems where you have to have certain skills and materials to compete. That´s just shit game design for a sandbox. Dismounting f.e. should be skillbased rather than wealth based.

1: Control schemes are limited by hardware.
2: Momentum already existed, with the exception of hitting the R (to dismount) key causing the mount to stop on a dime. That was busted and should have been fixed ages ago with the R key being disabled if one was not stationary or moving slowly.
3: No, input lag was a cancer. You're just asking for a backdoor horse brain again. Nothing else in this game has an input lag, nothing.

Forcing a dismount was never wealth based, any idiot could get copper or brass or bronze blunt damage weapons and land a body shot on the rider to force a dismount. That's how it worked.

The idea that you needed Tindremic Messing minimum is a false idea based on the fact that TM had one of the highest blunt/slash/pierce ratios in the game, but that didn't mean it was required as a minimum spec as Copper, Brass, and Bronze were more than adequate when constructed into the correct weapon heads/designs.

 

[Teknique]

You have WAAAAAAY too much faith in SV's capability of coding and "fixing" an AI. Also I like how you prefaced your statement with "a few valiant mounted players who agreed with me" as if it's something noble or moral to enjoy a broken system.

The concept could make sense in theory but where the metal and the meat converge is where things get screwy, and one thing I think a lot of us in general can agree on is that RNG is mostly bad. Consistency in a game like this is important.



Selective exaggeration. Cavalry never accelerated as if they were attached to rocket engines; however I'd like to point out that I'm skeptical of your actual exposure to real horses or how fast they can move from a neutral pace.

True my equine taming irl is a bit lacking but i'm sure i'd pick it up in an hour or two. Arguing with you based on realism is sadly what I had to resort to when you completely ignored my argument earlier in this thread about mounted having nearly every advantage in the game both pve and pvp wise.

I've played mounted classes extensively, in fact to me the game was only playable mounted.

 

[Rhodri_Taliesin]

True my equine taming irl is a bit lacking but i'm sure i'd pick it up in an hour or two. Arguing with you based on realism is sadly what I had to resort to when you completely ignored my argument earlier in this thread about mounted having nearly every advantage in the game both pve and pvp wise.

I didn't ignore your argument, I outright refuted it.

Your argument is based on comparing cavalry and footies in a vacuum and it's frankly annoying to me that you keep ignoring the various points I've made about countering cavalry properly.

Shoot, I'm trying to find the video of the Myrland Summer Derby showing an attempt I made at fending off multiple mounted players while on foot.

 

[Teknique]

I didn't ignore your argument, I outright refuted it.

Your argument is based on comparing cavalry and footies in a vacuum and it's frankly annoying to me that you keep ignoring the various points I've made about countering cavalry properly.

Shoot, I'm trying to find the video of the Myrland Summer Derby showing an attempt I made at fending off multiple mounted players while on foot.

vacuum is just a word. Hardly an argument at all.

What vacuum did I compare it to? The vacuum of every system in the game? Whether its to transporting, ease of killing mobs, survivability, cheapest cost to maintain (2g for horse + 3 pieces of armor), raw dps . Even if you were really bad at reducing the cost of your mounted and you actually spent 1-3k on it. That is still a cheap cost to actually be able to engage with the world properly. Invest that on your foot fighter and I promise you, you won't be going to farm kurnas with that set.

Also I encourage you to show me whatever videos you like but its likely irrelevant as my argument isn't that you can't make plays on foot. Having AN option isn't the same as having THE option. False equivalence.

 

[Zbuciorn]

We are going to have much bigger world in MO2 and using mounts will probably be some sort of necessity.Making cavalry too easy may impact infantry playstyle more than in MO1 if they became unpractical we may not see any foot roams

 

[barcode]

the summary may be exaggerated but the point is still there, you want it both ways. reality when it suits you and other game mechanics when it doesnt.

i dont think anyone is suggesting that being mounted shouldnt have an advantage. there needs to be balance, however, and you just stick your head in the sand and claim max speed, max hp mounts should exist in MO with no downsides.

the game being a sandbox, i dont have any problem with mountbrains and some mounts being stubborn and requiring more direction to go where you want them to (as a stubborn donkey or mule may be), but instead of having some way of adjusting that thru attributes in game (int or psy on the horse maybe?) you just throw it out outright and exclaim 'good riddance'. maybe instead of the ubermounts you want with no downsides, maybe you could take the humble path and can claim this as a downside if you want to have said max speed max hp mount. I personally dont think thats enough of a downside but at least make some attempt to achieve balance.

-barcode

 

[Eldrath]

1: Control schemes are limited by hardware.
2: Momentum already existed, with the exception of hitting the R (to dismount) key causing the mount to stop on a dime. That was busted and should have been fixed ages ago with the R key being disabled if one was not stationary or moving slowly.
3: No, input lag was a cancer. You're just asking for a backdoor horse brain again. Nothing else in this game has an input lag, nothing.

Forcing a dismount was never wealth based, any idiot could get copper or brass or bronze blunt damage weapons and land a body shot on the rider to force a dismount. That's how it worked.

The idea that you needed Tindremic Messing minimum is a false idea based on the fact that TM had one of the highest blunt/slash/pierce ratios in the game, but that didn't mean it was required as a minimum spec as Copper, Brass, and Bronze were more than adequate when constructed into the correct weapon heads/designs.

For safe dismount, for a long time I was playing you needed tindremic messing. If you fought people with maxed balance.

Yes, I am asking for a horse brain. Play Bannerlord, play KcD. They all have it and people love it. The way horses behaved in MO after the breeding patch was garbage. SV has recognized that.

It´s not even about balance, it´s about riding a mount not feeling silly.

As for balance, I´ll repeat something I said in the MO1 forums a lot: People were using horses all the way through the horse brain. They were using them when they could be killed with 5 arrows. There is almost no way to make horses so shit, that people won´t use them.

 

[Rankor]

With the new map landscape, both size and topography, mounted combat (and mounts in general) will be completely differnent this go around. There's a reason there are roads crisscrossing the map everywhere. A lot of the forests and mountains will make mounted combat nearly impossible, by design if I had to guess.

 

[Rhias]

For safe dismount, for a long time I was playing you needed tindremic messing. If you fought people with maxed balance.

Yes, I am asking for a horse brain. Play Bannerlord, play KcD. They all have it and people love it. The way horses behaved in MO after the breeding patch was garbage. SV has recognized that.

It´s not even about balance, it´s about riding a mount not feeling silly.

As for balance, I´ll repeat something I said in the MO1 forums a lot: People were using horses all the way through the horse brain. They were using them when they could be killed with 5 arrows. There is almost no way to make horses so shit, that people won´t use them.

I'm dismounting with a steel halberd since years. Just saying... Frequently the Material is not the issue, but the lack of proper recipes.