MO2 flagging and rep system take the fun out of MO

[Jatix]

I was thinking about why I have no fun in MO2. This isnt a salt thread, I'm just hoping that if only people feel similarly SV may change some things. Theres been some core changes that completely removed some ways of playing the game. And pretty much all the way's I played are lumped into this category.

Story time. When I started MO1, I played for years just living in Tindrem. Tindrem online was virtually its own game. There was always tons of stuff going on, and tons of different things to do. Fight criminals in the GY/Sewers/Bandits/Garden. Be the criminal. Tindrem was the ultimate slum, but thats what made it fun. You always had to watch you back because there was conflict around every corner. And in that you made friends and enemies. Theres other things you can do, liek craft, and duel. And MO2 hasnt really killed those yet. But without the soul of tindrem, it being a massive slum, theres no fun in living there anyway.

MO2 has killed the whole dynamic of town life. MO1's flagging and criminal system had a lot of issues, but this created the room for all the town conflict that made town life fun. MO1 the murdercount system ticked down on its own so if you needed to kill a griefer or someone, you didnt get a harsh penalty. Greys could grey because you dont lose standing for defending yourself. Which created lots of conflict. Someone could hit a grey and die, and then be salty. Salt creates more future conflict. Repeat. And you have MO1 tindrem.

MO2 none of this works. If you grey and aggro guards you just lose standing. If you attack someone and aggro guards and dont even kill them, rip standing. Killing the guy who killed your horse the day before, rip standing. None of this comes back on its own. So you have to waste your time to get standing back, just so you can have any action. And thats not worth anyones time. so there just wont be any. I for sure wont be playing that way.

The game is a massive timesink. Thats the entire game loop. One of the only ways to play casually and get action, was living in tindrem. Because you could log in and go look for action in a reasonable amount of time. But theres no reason for anyone to do criminal activity anymore, because you will just lose standing. that you have to waste your time getting back. Which means theres no criminals for other people to fight. So theres no reason for them to log in to check.

The only way MO2 wants you to get action is by logging in and roaming across the world for several hours. Which completely kills the game for anyone even remotely casual, who otherwise can deal with losing stuff on death and getting zerged. And with MO2's extra big world, this just wastes even more time than it did in MO1. Which was the reason I lived in Tind so much in MO1. Roaming takes too much time, just so you can get zerged by mounted. Living in the Tindrem hood was the way to have fun. This wont be viable in MO2.

So in MO2's current state, the game just doesnt offer any of why I played MO for 10 years. And many other people I've seen over the years who lived in tind played the same game as me. And I dont expect any of them to enjoy MO2 either.

MO2 says its a hardcore game. But its not hardcore, MO1 was.

 

[Teknique]

The game you played, gone it is.

Join me, only I have the power to zerg the ones who did this to you.

 

[Tzone]

I dont think they want PvP. At first I thought it was a Hardcore PvP MMO with PvE and other stuff like RP.

But now I think its just a RP game with PvP thrown into it. Its like they dont even want PvP anymore. First it was towns being safe not its like the area around towns need to also be "safe". Not being much for the PvP side of the game, mounted still busted and ruining the PvP scene with the low risk gameplay they have. Just seems like PvP the main part of the game and driving force for people to play is on the back burner.

Most anti grief mechanics didnt do anything besides the earthquake reg cost change. Guards affect PvP more then they ever did to damper greifing. Each time they add a new system and it doesn work while harming other game content they leave it in place and add another system they doesnt work but still hurts gameplay.

Criminal content was huge content for this game. Really cutting out massive parts of the game.
They should have focused on making only parts of the town safe and the rest more dangerous and with less guards. Make Lictors not teleport to outside of towns or outside the "safe area".

Most of the griefer guilds already stayed blue and farmed so rep loss on aggro didnt change the game for them, just for PvPers trying to get fights going. People lose rep at times they thought they were very far away from guards. Risar have like only 10 to lose. Noobs with 5 rep will be tricked into going grey and lose rep. Many times during stress test would noobs go grey and return to guard zone despite people in voip and chat telling not to.

 

[Kokolo]

As much as I enjoy the safety of towns and crafting within them I do have to agree. I'd like to have spots within cities that are more unsafe and where the dodgy hoodlums can choose to live. This would also incetivise guilds that claim the city to have their own patrols around town as well. Maybe make extracting safe and crafting locations less safe in one city and the reverse in another for example. Lictors are too much in general in my opinion. Teleporting guards just don't make sense. I hope they get removed when the criminal system gets some more love.

I mean, if someone kills me or steals from me and manges to fight off or evade 10 guards to get away then hell man they deserve the loot. That's impressive. I'd like for people to be able to become the known criminal in the city. It's the spice this game advertises itself with.

 

[ArcaneConsular]

I mean you can always find fights outside of towns. Killing noobs in the library might be fun for some, but it just harms the game. You talk about being a hardcore pvp player but all you want to do is kill unprepared players in towns. Why not go to bandit camps or risars to kill players. Sure there will be plenty of people there on launch all the time

 

[Farligbonde]

Yeah but these were necessary changes to actually grow the population of the game so other people than the original 100 people from mo1 would play the game.

 

[Lord Hair Remover]

Yeah but these were necessary changes to actually grow the population of the game so other people than the original 100 people from mo1 would play the game.

You seem so certain with this even though you don't really know if it's had a positive or negative effect.

Also I don't understand, gimping the combat will grow the population?

 

[Speznat]

MO1 Tindrem Slum live was awesome, I eman that was the reason Why i palyed there for like 6 years. good profit for me as crafter and trader, many people = more opporunities for trades and stuff.

I hated the people that were killing my pets all the time or me in town or the thieves all the time. But I must admit that made it fun. I guess all the people that styed in tindrem are hardenend against losses and salt and stuff. but I think many people quit there or instead lived in another town.

I mean, a normal player with a normal mindset for these players the tindrem slums are a horrbile place. for everyone else it was fun and perfect I mean every fucked up person played there years while going slowly insane. I love it.

but with the tindrme arena system that will come and many other mechanics and stuff tindrme will offer in MO2. it can still be a slum again. I mean many districts are missing and stuff. so the potential is there. And i mean low standing is no problem if you have spiritist for exmaple inside the graveyard with euip and reviving the outlaws and you have basicly the old tindrem back.

As if an real red outlaw player would give a fuck about the standing system anyway to be honest.

Every year long tindrem pvp fighter i met are mental insane. they would give a fuck about anything and just continue. xD

 

[Jatix]

Yeah but these were necessary changes to actually grow the population of the game so other people than the original 100 people from mo1 would play the game.

Making a lot of the core MO players quit isnt growing the game. A lot of the nubs that SV thinks the game will keep with these changes will quit anyway for all the other reasons to quit besides getting killed in town.

 

[ArcaneConsular]

Making a lot of the core MO players quit isnt growing the game. A lot of the nubs that SV thinks the game will keep with these changes will quit anyway for all the other reasons to quit besides getting killed in town.

Well if it drives away the core players they would've left for some other reason anyways by your logic right? No point trying to appease the small number of players that only play to kill noobs in towns to luls

 

[Backyard Employee]

Mortal Online takes the fun out of Mortal Online.

If someone wrote down all of the ideas this game tries to execute on paper, you'd think it would be a golden game with tons of success and smart moves; but.. it's not.

Yeah, it's also kind of weird to say that the old MO1 players quitting or "not catering to them" will grow the game. Hate to say it but the MO1 players -is- your core player base, and are the ones who can get others to play. Hate to break it to you but just because SV hires out Asmongold to play the game for a couple days and make a video on it doesn't mean we are now guaranteed 'x' amount of players. In-fact, all this is going to do in my opinion is temporarily inflate the population at launch and cause an even bigger smear campaign of the game through reviews.

Mortal Online 1 right now on Steam is at a 51% rating - but if you go through and actually look at a lot of the reviews and what rating they were given - a lot of the 'positive' ones are simply older players making a meme out of it and displaying little to no info on the experience and showing their huge hour count, so I definitely think this rating is realistically even lower.

If you look up MO1 online and go through old game forums and posting boards you'll actually see nothing but negative reviews of the game, with a RARE sight of a single player vehemently defending a lot of the bad design or simply living in a delusional made up world where the game was immensely successful.

@ArcaneConsular

What? This had nothing to do with killing noobs in town. All the OP is stating is that town life is having the 'life' in it sapped away by changes to the game.

Another news flash, new players are recommended to STAY on Haven until they are ready to proceed elsewhere which leads to consequences and dangers. That's the whole point of the game - looking over your shoulder, and feeling immersed in a world that actually has repercussions (or rewards) for every action you take.. from the city you live in, to the guild you play or represent.

Star Vault is already doing a splendid job of driving off core players anyway for a multitude of reasons, they'll still play at launch (I promise you) but I can't guarantee how long before the population drops hard.

MO2 is trying to re-invent a wheel that wasn't broken with some mechanics (While others, doing so was a good thing).

For example, I don't really see the reason in players being given a 4th direction to block / swing from. It didn't make combat any more interesting, if anything overheads only add to the problem given they're mostly used to accel attacks into players (But I honestly preferred the overhead strike ability, where players had to purchase a book to gain the skill then train it.)

I don't understand this drive to keep everyone on a single server only to gimp other features of the game. I don't understand why they so badly want people to not fight in the water. I don't understand why Star Vault is so assured making the map freakishly huge is going to benefit the game long term.

Seems like the game is being purposely made to be larger, more empty, more tedious, and more time consuming along with charging more then the original game. Sure, I like having crafting skills on my combat characters now.. but one slot.. really??

People who believe in the idea of "well you need to rely on others for things" clearly have never played a game like MO1 for example where the population is low, or where guilds hate each other to the point of no trading / crafting / blocking off content to prevent others from gaining any kind of footing.. You had to do everything yourself, because why wait hand-and-foot on someone else to do it?

In regards to people getting griefed in towns, I don't really know the solution. All I can say is - you could be griefed anywhere, town or not; but your best bet in MO1 was to live elsewhere. You had that choice, albeit it would suck. I lived in Tindrem at one point for about 6 to 8 months, and quickly learned that Tindrem was best suited for new players because it either chewed them up and spit them out so they knew MO wasn't going to be their type of game - or like it did to me, hardened players and let them go out into the world prepared to die, lose their stuff, get griefed, encounter players and politics, etc. etc.

 

[PuckInmortali]

I didn't play MO1, though I am very interested in MO2. I did play UO early on though, so I've experienced a similar type of play. In UO, if you attacked someone in a city, the guards would teleport to you and kill you immediately. I believe the same thing happened if you got caught stealing. I assume this was put into place to create a refuge for people to do their business, as the rest of the world was no holds barred, full loot PvP. It was a type of artificial compromise that fit its purpose. I think MO2 is trying to do something similar, but in a more organic manner, and I can appreciate that.

I support a level of player protection that is reasonable and that encourages the growth of the game. Specifically, players who are interested in playing MO2 shouldn't see progression constantly/consistently stifled via griefing (especially griefing). It is one thing to be attacked and killed by player bandits on the road, and another entirely to be killed in the middle of the town square for no reason, and then spawn camped by a naked dwarf named "Hitler" (a name I actually saw in the beta).

Personally, and though I might get heat for saying so, I think the camps of "more systems of protection so I can solo uninhibited" and "no restrictions at all so I can grief uninhibited" are both misguided, myopic, and extreme points of view. In a sandbox game, interdependence, cooperation and conflict need to present to make the world fun and immersive. It is precisely the developer's job to ensure this type of optimal experience to the best of their ability. Practically, this requires a level of compromise between extremes, albeit within the context of a full loot, PvP sandbox game.

 

[Backyard Employee]

I didn't play MO1, though I am very interested in MO2. I did play UO early on though, so I've experienced a similar type of play. In UO, if you attacked someone in a city, the guards would teleport to you and kill you immediately. I believe the same thing happened if you got caught stealing. I assume this was put into place to create a refuge for people to do their business, as the rest of the world was no holds barred, full loot PvP. It was a type of artificial compromise that fit its purpose. I think MO2 is trying to do something similar, but in a more organic manner, and I can appreciate that.

I support a level of player protection that is reasonable and that encourages the growth of the game. Specifically, players who are interested in playing MO2 shouldn't see progression constantly/consistently stifled via griefing (especially griefing). It is one thing to be attacked and killed by player bandits on the road, and another entirely to be killed in the middle of the town square for no reason, and then spawn camped by a naked dwarf named "Hitler" (a name I actually saw in the beta).

Personally, and though I might get heat for saying so, I think the camps of "more systems of protection so I can solo uninhibited" and "no restrictions at all so I can grief uninhibited" are both misguided, myopic, and extreme points of view. In a sandbox game, interdependence, cooperation and conflict need to present to make the world fun and immersive. It is precisely the developer's job to ensure this type of optimal experience to the best of their ability. Practically, this requires a level of compromise between extremes, albeit within the context of a full loot, PvP sandbox game.

I guess I find myself on the extreme of "no restrictions at all so I can grief uninhibited", or to some degree agree with complete freedom.

A basic example I can provide is the fact your enemies.. People who attack you, grief you, troll you, steal from you, etc. can do so on their own terms but then be given complete safety inside a town of their choosing? I find it not at all fair if a player can utilize a town to hide himself from the consequences of his or her actions.

The vulnerable aspect of gameplay is what, in my opinion, makes MO unique.

 

[Highlander]

bring back red characters! I miss roaming close towns and see new players run away or fight the BAD guy. this rep system is just a garbage timesinker. Players just wait for the first gray guy to start a fight.. but most times they watch each others holding hands. pathetic

 

[PuckInmortali]

I guess I find myself on the extreme of "no restrictions at all so I can grief uninhibited", or to some degree agree with complete freedom.

A basic example I can provide is the fact your enemies.. People who attack you, grief you, troll you, steal from you, etc. can do so on their own terms but then be given complete safety inside a town of their choosing? I find it not at all fair if a player can utilize a town to hide himself from the consequences of his or her actions.

The vulnerable aspect of gameplay is what, in my opinion, makes MO unique.

I am not saying that SV's solution is great, insofar as I understand it. I am saying that some system needs to be present that discourages blatant griefing for the "luls". I am certain wherever SV lands on this issue, it will not be perfect and will not cover every circumstance a player may find themselves in. However, it is my belief that they would do well to address it for the reasons I stated in my original post.

 

[Teknique]

Star Vault is the epitome of the saying "throwing the baby out with the bath water"

Its why I cringe anytime anyone pretty much suggests ANYTHING, because I know if they do change it then it will be a complete destruction of that mechanic.

SV was listening to the community and I can't fault them for that, however when you can't actually extrapolate the changes you do to how they will effect other systems in the game then it isn't worth changing it.

In this case it was horse griefing, THE RESPONSE IS GIVING A WHOLE REP LOSS FOR BEING SPOTTED BY GUARDS?? I haven't even played since this update but i'm sure its awful.

 

[pooternackle]

I agree that the system is dumb right now (sprinkling cities with danger zones seems like a good correction), but lol at the veteran players threatening to quit. You guys have nowhere to go. Even with the weird flagging, no mmo has pvp nearly as open as MO2.

 

[Eldrath]

I agree that the system is dumb right now (sprinkling cities with danger zones seems like a good correction), but lol at the veteran players threatening to quit. You guys have nowhere to go. Even with the weird flagging, no mmo has pvp nearly as open as MO2.

You could just ... not play an MMO?

The original vision for Mortal Online is great and if Mats ever gets the time and funding to follow through with it I would play the shit out of it. But this iteration has very little left of the things that actually interest me and I think those talking about quitting feel the same way.

I like beer and I don´t like piss. If you offer me a beer that contains 90% piss I´d rather drink water.

Cheers!

 

[PuckInmortali]

You could just ... not play an MMO?

The original vision for Mortal Online is great and if Mats ever gets the time and funding to follow through with it I would play the shit out of it. But this iteration has very little left of the things that actually interest me and I think those talking about quitting feel the same way.

I like beer and I don´t like piss. If you offer me a beer that contains 90% piss I´d rather drink water.

Cheers!

So what is it, specifically, that interests you that SV has removed through the flagging and rep system? I am genuinely curious.

 

[Eldrath]

So what is it, specifically, that interests you that SV has removed through the flagging and rep system? I am genuinely curious.

What interests me is free flowing playing interaction that creates interesting and unique situations. The current flagging system is more or less a straight copy from the original, which was flawed and hindered player interaction more often that not. SV tries to create a coded morale framework that holds up when confronted with real humans. It does not work and is comical when known scumbacks are classified as a "innocent" whenever they re-roll or just had the computer online long enough. Or when someone actually working with a code of conduct gets branded a murderer because one of his heals hit the wrong target. Yet still Henrik persists in talking about this as if these terms have any real meaning.

The reputation system could be excellent since it´s bones seem well thought out. (different clade having different Min/max, interaction between players and NPCs mattering etc.) Which is not surprising since this part was designed by an actual game designer. But when we look at how guards actually behave and how it interacts is quickly become obvious that it being missused as an "anti-griefing" mechanic. Which brings us back to SV trying to push some kind of morals into their code, which simply does not work and certainly does not make an interesting sandbox game.

Lastly here is the quote that led me to sit back and reduce my input on the development process:


Now take what I said above and translate this statement. Consequences that will make you not want to play the game. For murdering "innocents", which is a mostly meaningless term since Sebs broken ass code will not be able to determine someones conduct correctly.

It is shifting the game further away from a sandbox experience to a semi free gathering simulator with empire warfare from first person. Which is actually very close to what MO1 became in the end and what put it down.

I realize that my argumentation is fairly broad but I´m not invested enought to go through all the changes, comments and deliver a more detailed critique. It would be too much work with very little benefit.