MO I Player Considering MO II: Questions

[Jatix]

MO1 was a 400 concurrent(Or less) game for most of its life right? 400 people out of the entire internet gave it the time of day on a regular basis. And yes we all knew about it and yes we refused to play it. It's really a pathetic argument to want to go back to a system that was even worse then the current one by every metric (and the current one isn't much better).

People want a boring game, which is why MO2 its doing better. I've said before, this genre of game pretty much exists so it can die. People want hardcore open loot pvp. Having that makes the game die instantly as everyone gets dunked looted and rage quits. Everyone but the winnign zerg quits, and then they quit when theres nobody left to kill. Devs add stuff to stop people from quitting, which takes away from the hardcore open pvp. Then the people who wanted hardcore open pvp quit. The farther you go from hardcore open pvp, the better the game does. But then it stops appealing to the people who wanted the game.

Personally, I've raised my standard. Yes MO2 is the only option for this genre of game. but it falls so short of the experience I used to love that I just see no reason to play it. I'd rather think about the fun times I had in old pvp games than to play MO2 and be disappointed.

 

[xguild]

I think the problem, mentioned already of most of the content being completely out of reach of 95% of the community is at the heart of the issue with the games longevity. I mean the PvP stuff can be fixed but if the bulk of the community can’t get out of town without getting Zerg ganked by elite vets, anything outside of town may as well not exist.

Right now they are putting all of this effort into territory control and my question is, who the hell is it for? The 20 or so guild leaders running guilds with a few dozen dedicated players?

I think most new players that enter the game have nothing to look forward to but a grind that will ultimately belong to the vultures waiting for them a few steps out of town. One or two ganks loosing a few days of work and they rage quit. It’s the same problem MO1 had with retention of players.

What is the sales pitch for new players? Come grind so we can kill you and take your stuff….?

MO2 needs to be more than just an asshole simulator.

 

[ElPerro]

Ph

Wow is this Deju Vu? It's almost like DF1 Vets made the same argument you're making. Where are those DF1 vets though? I've looked all around Rise of Agon and I can't find them. Oh? They're here? What do you mean they're playing MO2? Do you mean to tell me DF1 is dead? But those guys said it was "Perfect" and they'd play even if it was only just themselves!

Rise of Agon is still up, go check it out. You'll fit right in. Lmao.

Yea so in the real world numbers do matter, and they matter alot, because devs require money for work. I don't think we will see 2k player averages a month after TC is launched and even if we do see 2k player averages that's not impressive at all and there is no sub. Given that unreal is never going to be able to fit more then 2k on a map without issues I think it's fine but if you ever want to advance MO2 past a single populated server (or map) you'll need to change the game dramatically to have more mass appeal and if you don't it's going to be a slow hemorrhage until the next studio releases their attempt at making 3D Ultima and then all your "veterans" will be doing the exact same shit the DF1 vets did. Abandon their dead game for a more populated one.

The only way to win is by actually making a good game. One where people sub for years, not quit in the first two weeks. Otherwise it ends the same way all the other failed projects did.

This is where you're wrong, our CEO Mr. Henrik has loads and loads of money from his dads inheritance and hes determined to blow every last dollar to complete his Vision. It doesnt matter how many players stay, or any dumb metric that constitutes a "good game" in your mind. Only thing that matters is being faithful to The Vision.

 

[xguild]

This is where you're wrong, our CEO Mr. Henrik has loads and loads of money from his dads inheritance and hes determined to blow every last dollar to complete his Vision. It doesnt matter how many players stay, or any dumb metric that constitutes a "good game" in your mind. Only thing that matters is being faithful to The Vision.

Perhaps. I for one am willing try any vision a designer has but I’m short tempered and vocal, if it’s not good I will simply leave and ward people off with the same passion I would play and invite if it’s good.

I’m here now… show me what you got!!

So far, I’m not terribly impressed. There is a lot of work to be done before I would recommend MO2 to anyone or be willing to pay for a subscription. I hope they wait in subscriptions until they have something worth paying for

 

[ThaBadMan]

MO2 did the same mistake that doomed MO1.

Its stuck in a between state.
It wants to be a new UO hardcore game but sells out in almost every aspect of the game to reach a wider audience and all that does is force away the hardcore main audience and also the masses it sells out for since they not gonna play a badly designed game that force you to drop anything on death.

Most sales MO2 got was probably from veterans last hope a game for them was coming as thats what they advertised for a long time in Combat Alpha.
Then they 180ed and did the same thing they did with MO1 and so ruined MO2 for most veterans of MO1.

Sad state of affairs.

 

[ThaBadMan]

People want a boring game, which is why MO2 its doing better. I've said before, this genre of game pretty much exists so it can die. People want hardcore open loot pvp. Having that makes the game die instantly as everyone gets dunked looted and rage quits. Everyone but the winnign zerg quits, and then they quit when theres nobody left to kill. Devs add stuff to stop people from quitting, which takes away from the hardcore open pvp. Then the people who wanted hardcore open pvp quit. The farther you go from hardcore open pvp, the better the game does. But then it stops appealing to the people who wanted the game.

Personally, I've raised my standard. Yes MO2 is the only option for this genre of game. but it falls so short of the experience I used to love that I just see no reason to play it. I'd rather think about the fun times I had in old pvp games than to play MO2 and be disappointed.

The fault lies in the power you get by simply having a braindead zerg being the best in the game.
Wont repeat it as im still hearing my echoes of past statements ring through these halls.
Only to make Henrik go further away from the heavenly path to success.

 

[fartbox]

MO2 did the same mistake that doomed MO1.

Its stuck in a between state.
It wants to be a new UO hardcore game but sells out in almost every aspect of the game to reach a wider audience and all that does is force away the hardcore main audience and also the masses it sells out for since they not gonna play a badly designed game that force you to drop anything on death.

Most sales MO2 got was probably from veterans last hope a game for them was coming as thats what they advertised for a long time in Combat Alpha.
Then they 180ed and did the same thing they did with MO1 and so ruined MO2 for most veterans of MO1.

Sad state of affairs.

Cope, Seethe, Dilate. Where was this hardcore population for MO1 then, it was the hardest of the core, even harder then shadowbane, yet it struggled to get 1000 players online ever. I'll tell you where.... the population of hardcore gamers you're talking about doesn't exist, or it is so small that it you couldn't possibly rationalize catering to it. That's the same logic as catering to the .005% of the population that wants to chop their dick off...it isn't logical...it isn't rationale and i'm very logical man.

As far as MO2; Game peaked at 10k concurrent and that was week 1 and most people couldn't get into the game. The more people that got into the game and tried it, the more that quit. The retention rate for MO2 is god-awful and it was EVEN WORSE for MO1. You aren't going to have any games to play if you keep giving shitty advice because they'll all die a shadowbanes death with you at the wheel.

MO2 needs to take one of three directions to flourish with a real bonified MMO population.
1. OSRS approach - Most of game is safe but the best resources, income and progress items come from dangerous areas
2. Albion approach - A mix of somewhat dangerous areas, safe areas, and overtly dangerous areas with risk/reward tied in.
3. EVE approach - Most of the game is unsafe, the safe areas have low income rates. The dangerous areas are split up into two categories; one: where the aggressor will be at significant disadvantage if he initiates aggression and two: where there are no rules or disadvantages for engaging.

Number 3 would be the easiest to implement and code given what already exists in the game. Specifically with guard patrols of varying strength and density, this would serve as MO2's "Sentry guns".

 

[Teknique]

Cope, Seethe, Dilate. Where was this hardcore population for MO1 then, it was the hardest of the core, even harder then shadowbane, yet it struggled to get 1000 players online ever. I'll tell you where.... the population of hardcore gamers you're talking about doesn't exist, or it is so small that it you couldn't possibly rationalize catering to it. That's the same logic as catering to the .005% of the population that wants to chop their dick off...it isn't logical...it isn't rationale and i'm very logical man.

As far as MO2; Game peaked at 10k concurrent and that was week 1 and most people couldn't get into the game. The more people that got into the game and tried it, the more that quit. The retention rate for MO2 is god-awful and it was EVEN WORSE for MO1. You aren't going to have any games to play if you keep giving shitty advice because they'll all die a shadowbanes death with you at the wheel.

MO2 needs to take one of three directions to flourish with a real bonified MMO population.
1. OSRS approach - Most of game is safe but the best resources, income and progress items come from dangerous areas
2. Albion approach - A mix of somewhat dangerous areas, safe areas, and overtly dangerous areas with risk/reward tied in.
3. EVE approach - Most of the game is unsafe, the safe areas have low income rates. The dangerous areas are split up into two categories; one: where the aggressor will be at significant disadvantage if he initiates aggression and two: where there are no rules or disadvantages for engaging.

Number 3 would be the easiest to implement and code given what already exists in the game. Specifically with guard patrols of varying strength and density, this would serve as MO2's "Sentry guns".

I actually agree that the hardcore elements of the game need to be thought out correctly. Albion, gv, eve shit like that.

The problem isn’t just that though. It’s that every system in the game is approached with the same level of carelessness.

That said we used to have literal wars inside tindrem and it was fun as fuck

Mo 2 has managed to cuck every piece of content from mo1. The pvp the class design the politics everything it’s all gone. There isn’t a single mechanic that has been spared

 

[fartbox]

I actually agree that the hardcore elements of the game need to be thought out correctly. Albion, gv, eve shit like that.

The problem isn’t just that though. It’s that every system in the game is approached with the same level of carelessness.

That said we used to have literal wars inside tindrem and it was fun as fuck

Mo 2 has managed to cuck every piece of content from mo1. The pvp the class design the politics everything it’s all gone. There isn’t a single mechanic that has been spared

Its going to have to cuck more unfortunately. Namely on respecting player time and giving the blues a chance in random encounters and incentive to be blue/solo/casual. Game needs more players and you're just never going attract enough new players on the games current ruleset. a second server can't happen until you can fill one(which is 2k players). So all these guys running around with 150-250 ping should get on board here.

Casuals make or break any game, you just need to find a proper balance in being able to grief them at their tolerance levels for them to play a loot/death game(Especially with a sub fee). You have to allow the casuals to have either some control over when/how they get griefed or you have to provide the casual a big enough edge in certain circumstances that he can beat a group that would of otherwise killed him. Those are like the only two options that have worked in all the other games.

Think about it, this has been trial and error'd about 100 times. Think of all the dead loot on death games there are. Think about the ones that lived. Why did they live? Who are most of their players and what do they do in the game?

If you're a rational human and you have been observing these games as long as I have then you should come to the same conclusion I have.

 

[xguild]

Its going to have to cuck more unfortunately. Namely on respecting player time and giving the blues a chance in random encounters and incentive to be blue/solo/casual. Game needs more players and you're just never going attract enough new players on the games current ruleset. a second server can't happen until you can fill one(which is 2k players). So all these guys running around with 150-250 ping should get on board here.

Casuals make or break any game, you just need to find a proper balance in being able to grief them at their tolerance levels for them to play a loot/death game(Especially with a sub fee). You have to allow the casuals to have either some control over when/how they get griefed or you have to provide the casual a big enough edge in certain circumstances that he can beat a group that would of otherwise killed him. Those are like the only two options that have worked in all the other games.

Think about it, this has been trial and error'd about 100 times. Think of all the dead loot on death games there are. Think about the ones that lived. Why did they live? Who are most of their players and what do they do in the game?

If you're a rational human and you have been observing these games as long as I have then you should come to the same conclusion I have.

Fully agree.

MO2 is a charity, it will be around so long as Starvault is willing to keep the servers running at a loss of revenue. It’s a loosing enterprise with its current rule set as has been the case of every “hardcore PvP” game. There is no market for such a game.

Never has been. Ultima Onlinr was a fluke. Either evolve or star a go fund me page cause there is no business in this market. Henrik knows this, he’s basically living on borrowed time… aka daddy’s money.

It’s fine so long as it lasts but this illusion this player base has that they are relevant is silly. You could get x1000 times the current population for this game and you would still loose money. The subscription would need to be 10k a month for each player for this game to turn a profit.

 

[ThaBadMan]

Cope, Seethe, Dilate. Where was this hardcore population for MO1 then, it was the hardest of the core, even harder then shadowbane, yet it struggled to get 1000 players online ever. I'll tell you where.... the population of hardcore gamers you're talking about doesn't exist, or it is so small that it you couldn't possibly rationalize catering to it. That's the same logic as catering to the .005% of the population that wants to chop their dick off...it isn't logical...it isn't rationale and i'm very logical man.

As far as MO2; Game peaked at 10k concurrent and that was week 1 and most people couldn't get into the game. The more people that got into the game and tried it, the more that quit. The retention rate for MO2 is god-awful and it was EVEN WORSE for MO1. You aren't going to have any games to play if you keep giving shitty advice because they'll all die a shadowbanes death with you at the wheel.

MO2 needs to take one of three directions to flourish with a real bonified MMO population.
1. OSRS approach - Most of game is safe but the best resources, income and progress items come from dangerous areas
2. Albion approach - A mix of somewhat dangerous areas, safe areas, and overtly dangerous areas with risk/reward tied in.
3. EVE approach - Most of the game is unsafe, the safe areas have low income rates. The dangerous areas are split up into two categories; one: where the aggressor will be at significant disadvantage if he initiates aggression and two: where there are no rules or disadvantages for engaging.

Number 3 would be the easiest to implement and code given what already exists in the game. Specifically with guard patrols of varying strength and density, this would serve as MO2's "Sentry guns".

MO1 had over 20k pre orders. You also had alot DF only players wanting the same type of game.
Audience is there, not their fault SV sold out and AV failed. MO1 honestly was at its best in closed beta testing and had a healthy population, by 2010 they had already started the slope downward by quite a bit.

Audience is there but companies just cant get the game right. Normally they sell out before the audience sees a worthy game to invest time in and so move on quickly to the next potential.

 

[xguild]

MO1 had over 20k pre orders. You also had alot DF only players wanting the same type of game.
Audience is there, not their fault SV sold out and AV failed. MO1 honestly was at its best in closed beta testing and had a healthy population, by 2010 they had already started the slope downward by quite a bit.

Audience is there but companies just cant get the game right. Normally they sell out before the audience sees a worthy game to invest time in and so move on quickly to the next potential.

Dude, I don’t think you understand how expensive it is to run and develop an mmo, especially in Sweden. If this game had 100k subscribers, it would still be bleeding money. 20k is not even close to enough to turn MO2 profitable.

Starvault has 19 full time employees, they need to be earning 2 million a year just to make payroll. When you calculate operations, office space, tech licensing. Starvault overhead is 5-10 million a year.

If they can get 20k people to drop 20 bucks a month consistently, it’s still in the red with even the most generous estimates. If they want to grow, they will need to spend a hell of a lot more than 20k people can produce and they literally have almost 0 chance of reaching even 10k subscribers, let alone 20k or 100k which is sctually what they need.

MO is a charity, we play because Henrik is willing and able to eat the costs and the game will only be around so long as whatever money source he is drawing from doesn’t run out.

If he is serious about making MO2 a profitable enterprise he is going to have to make some serious compromises. There aren’t enough hard core open loot PvP players on the planet to make MO as it is today profitable. The market is way too small.

The game needs casual, solo and pve players and a system that supports them. The thing is that it already has enough content and gameplay loops to draw these players in but all of this content is blocked by Zerg gangs looking to crush anyone stupid enough to leave town to try and access this content.

It’s for this reason the game is destined to remain an open world, full loop PvP charity until it inevitably gets shutdown. Henrik seems unwilling to make the compromise because the self defeating hardcore community is unwilling to accept any compromises.

The silly thing is that the best thing that could happen for Mortal Online is for the hardcore vets to leave, as they are the primary cause of player retention problems. For every 1 hardcore PvP vet there is 10,000 casual players waiting in the wings. Those 10k players don’t play MO because of the 2-3 “hardcore players” hanging outside of towns waiting to slaughter them.

Henrik and Starvault are a metaphorical a guy refusing water even though he is dying of thirst.

 

[ElPerro]

MO1 had over 20k pre orders. You also had alot DF only players wanting the same type of game.
Audience is there, not their fault SV sold out and AV failed. MO1 honestly was at its best in closed beta testing and had a healthy population, by 2010 they had already started the slope downward by quite a bit.

Audience is there but companies just cant get the game right. Normally they sell out before the audience sees a worthy game to invest time in and so move on quickly to the next potential.

History has repeat itself with MO2, the closed alpha was probably the peak of MO2 gameplay. No dumbass pets that have unparriable attacks and sticky back you (remember when sticky backing players was an actual skill in MO1?), no mounteds with pets, no retarded AoE magic spamming in group fights with tactician and you could even have good FPS with a medium tier PC if you edit the INI.

Its all downhill from here sadly, TC looks like its gonna be a parcel running simulator and cant wait for pet armors because they died too fast to 20 man groups spamming arrows.