Mage Discrimination

[AssassinOTL]

I've seen it as a theme but this last patch really puts light on how Terrible SV treats it's Mage class. lets look at all the classes and how when they pay 100 Action points their class gets a significant upgrade. and is significantly stronger. it's the opposite for Mages now. Why is that?

when Tribrids are made, instead of nerfing Archery, or Nerfing MC, oh no it must the the magic, lets nerf that... what's the reasoning? why make the weakest part of the equation weaker? you dont think the strongest 2 needed to be looked at? They JUST got done making it Hard to sustain anything Mana wise so for an intensive fight if you use anything more than discount spells you wont last a minute in the fight, and now you just dont get to participate in Mounted fights with a 30% chance to attack or heal yourself/teammates. and You cant go on dungeon runs on mounted, and you are the squishiest on foot, so use your skill rater than the class having decent range to make up for it.

it's not even fun to meme on it anymore because it's just sad the direction this is heading, and no one is saying anything to SV that makes any sense to have them head in the right direction, and it's looking pretty bleak right now. What are some of the thoughts from the community, or the other classes that have seen the different changes and thought something similar?

 

[Backyard Employee]

Mages are fine. I'm not sure why this guy is so desperate to try and say otherwise, but they're not weak, or useless.

Mages are by far the most useful role to play right now for a group whether it is PvE or PvP.


You speak as if mages are this enslaved group of people who are under the foot of the community who is under the foot of Star Vault.


I said this in another thread you made and I'll say it again. Foot fighters didn't have water combat until the recent patch. Which meant literally if a foot fighter tried to go in the water either to escape, or to chase; they couldn't attack. They couldn't swing, they couldn't shoot a bow; while a mage could just turn and cast on them no problem.

Now see, THAT was actually busted. What else?

Fat mages on foot are overpowered as fuck. Again people randomly draw up weird points like tournaments and say they can't 1v1, or that you don't see them in this closed-off tourny spaces; because they don't reflect the actuality of how people play the game. You can jump up or down things, kite, etc. I mentioned just the other day that I was re-rolling a character and logged onto an old fat mage character I was messing around with and literally killed an MA off his mount. That was a 1v1 I won.

Mages also are guaranteed new magic schools over time. What do melee players get? We got a promise almost a year ago for actual combat action skills (kick, dodge, etc.) but it seems like magic is getting a lot of the love. Mage players already have two schools of magic, pets to tame / dominate to fight for you, etc.

Melee players have to beg for poleswords to not have shitty animations, and it was only months after did we get it.

IDK. I get if someone wants to argue that mage sucks if you're solo, and have no guild; but mages are meant to be a support class in this game for the most part. If you want more PvE capabilities.. what ever. Go for it. That's fine. But in regards to comparing them to other players? A mage makes a night and day difference.

You ever heal someone in full tungsteel back to full? That makes the enemy side upset almost instantly. You can heal mounts? Wow, that's super useful. A guy corrupts or fulminates you or someone else? Purify! No pots needed!

 

[MolagAmur]

Mages are fine. I'm not sure why this guy is so desperate to try and say otherwise, but they're not weak, or useless.

Mages are by far the most useful role to play right now for a group whether it is PvE or PvP.


You speak as if mages are this enslaved group of people who are under the foot of the community who is under the foot of Star Vault.


I said this in another thread you made and I'll say it again. Foot fighters didn't have water combat until the recent patch. Which meant literally if a foot fighter tried to go in the water either to escape, or to chase; they couldn't attack. They couldn't swing, they couldn't shoot a bow; while a mage could just turn and cast on them no problem.

Now see, THAT was actually busted. What else?

Fat mages on foot are overpowered as fuck. Again people randomly draw up weird points like tournaments and say they can't 1v1, or that you don't see them in this closed-off tourny spaces; because they don't reflect the actuality of how people play the game. You can jump up or down things, kite, etc. I mentioned just the other day that I was re-rolling a character and logged onto an old fat mage character I was messing around with and literally killed an MA off his mount. That was a 1v1 I won.

Mages also are guaranteed new magic schools over time. What do melee players get? We got a promise almost a year ago for actual combat action skills (kick, dodge, etc.) but it seems like magic is getting a lot of the love. Mage players already have two schools of magic, pets to tame / dominate to fight for you, etc.

Melee players have to beg for poleswords to not have shitty animations, and it was only months after did we get it.

IDK. I get if someone wants to argue that mage sucks if you're solo, and have no guild; but mages are meant to be a support class in this game for the most part. If you want more PvE capabilities.. what ever. Go for it. That's fine. But in regards to comparing them to other players? A mage makes a night and day difference.

You ever heal someone in full tungsteel back to full? That makes the enemy side upset almost instantly. You can heal mounts? Wow, that's super useful. A guy corrupts or fulminates you or someone else? Purify! No pots needed!

Spot on

 

[AssassinOTL]

Mages are fine. I'm not sure why this guy is so desperate to try and say otherwise, but they're not weak, or useless.

Mages are by far the most useful role to play right now for a group whether it is PvE or PvP.


You speak as if mages are this enslaved group of people who are under the foot of the community who is under the foot of Star Vault.


I said this in another thread you made and I'll say it again. Foot fighters didn't have water combat until the recent patch. Which meant literally if a foot fighter tried to go in the water either to escape, or to chase; they couldn't attack. They couldn't swing, they couldn't shoot a bow; while a mage could just turn and cast on them no problem.

Now see, THAT was actually busted. What else?

Fat mages on foot are overpowered as fuck. Again people randomly draw up weird points like tournaments and say they can't 1v1, or that you don't see them in this closed-off tourny spaces; because they don't reflect the actuality of how people play the game. You can jump up or down things, kite, etc. I mentioned just the other day that I was re-rolling a character and logged onto an old fat mage character I was messing around with and literally killed an MA off his mount. That was a 1v1 I won.

Mages also are guaranteed new magic schools over time. What do melee players get? We got a promise almost a year ago for actual combat action skills (kick, dodge, etc.) but it seems like magic is getting a lot of the love. Mage players already have two schools of magic, pets to tame / dominate to fight for you, etc.

Melee players have to beg for poleswords to not have shitty animations, and it was only months after did we get it.

IDK. I get if someone wants to argue that mage sucks if you're solo, and have no guild; but mages are meant to be a support class in this game for the most part. If you want more PvE capabilities.. what ever. Go for it. That's fine. But in regards to comparing them to other players? A mage makes a night and day difference.

You ever heal someone in full tungsteel back to full? That makes the enemy side upset almost instantly. You can heal mounts? Wow, that's super useful. A guy corrupts or fulminates you or someone else? Purify! No pots needed!

why i think mages need to be treated a little differently from the team is this.... EVERYTHING you just mentioned, can be done by the FF in the same capacity and sometimes faster.

Humans can purify a fulm or corrupt for FREE heals? the tiny bandages already heal well enought to match a Fatmage Greater Heal, and that's the small bandage. The Potions heal WAAAAAY faster than mages because of terrible cast times especially on bigger spells that cost too much to cast reliably. Mages are a liability in a group fight that lasts to long. they oom and become nothing more useless than a Tampon that already fell in the pool, or a condom with a hole in it.

With the Full range of things you mentioned can you imagine a shot caller or random teammates asking for all those things at once? the mana bar just doesnt keep up. out of all the classes it has the worst sustain in a fight especially if you try to do big heals or damage. But trying to throw out discount spells when Everyone hits you for half your health bar or more is not playing on an even playing field.

the other thing is now the fact that everything outdoes you at everything regardless of the skill cap you are at. can you beat a noob? yeah sure, plenty of videos of that out there. can mages even compete at the highest lvl of pvp? NO shot.

and yeah it looks like there are magic schools on the way... but how many Weapon types are there for Melee? 7/8 with no fist weapons yet, and how many variations of those are there in each category and split between 1H and 2H that give you options on good damage and speed. with Fist weapons on the way Dual strike and Tipple strike on the way. and Archers already have more and different combos of wood types and Animal parts to make end game stuff, and they are really strong and efficient. and can out dps and interupt a mage with just simple sustain even without the best bow

I appreciate the different way you came at this conversation, i'm actually able to see clear points in your response, and able to hold a convo, i appreciate that and thanks for stopping in,

 

[Backyard Employee]

why i think mages need to be treated a little differently from the team is this.... EVERYTHING you just mentioned, can be done by the FF in the same capacity and sometimes faster.

Humans can purify a fulm or corrupt for FREE heals? the tiny bandages already heal well enought to match a Fatmage Greater Heal, and that's the small bandage. The Potions heal WAAAAAY faster than mages because of terrible cast times especially on bigger spells that cost too much to cast reliably. Mages are a liability in a group fight that lasts to long. they oom and become nothing more useless than a Tampon that already fell in the pool, or a condom with a hole in it.

With the Full range of things you mentioned can you imagine a shot caller or random teammates asking for all those things at once? the mana bar just doesnt keep up. out of all the classes it has the worst sustain in a fight especially if you try to do big heals or damage. But trying to throw out discount spells when Everyone hits you for half your health bar or more is not playing on an even playing field.

the other thing is now the fact that everything outdoes you at everything regardless of the skill cap you are at. can you beat a noob? yeah sure, plenty of videos of that out there. can mages even compete at the highest lvl of pvp? NO shot.

and yeah it looks like there are magic schools on the way... but how many Weapon types are there for Melee? 7/8 with no fist weapons yet, and how many variations of those are there in each category and split between 1H and 2H that give you options on good damage and speed. with Fist weapons on the way Dual strike and Tipple strike on the way. and Archers already have more and different combos of wood types and Animal parts to make end game stuff, and they are really strong and efficient. and can out dps and interupt a mage with just simple sustain even without the best bow

I appreciate the different way you came at this conversation, i'm actually able to see clear points in your response, and able to hold a convo, i appreciate that and thanks for stopping in,

Foot fighters can't corrupt or fulminate PvE or PvP enemies.

Bandages have a longer animation, make you put your weapon away, and have an internal cooldown. The only thing the same is a mage can't have his weapons out (But in MO1 you couldn't even have things equipped to cast. So buff in MO2)

Mages who can manage their mana effectively are the ones that win the long fights for their team. What are you spamming in fights?

It does. I've been in groups of 30 in MO2 and had less mages then wanted and they kept up just fine. We just taught them right I suppose.

Again, not sure what spells you're using frequently. Not going to sit here and give you a guide on playing mage in a group fight but you don't OOM quickly if you're smart.

You need mages at the highest level of PvP. The game is a parry simulator, mages break the monotony of it.

Oh. I feel like I'm watching Yu-Gi-Oh with how you stepped onto my trap card. How many melee weapons are actually viable in fights?

Think about it. Blunt weapons currently have no chipping / punch through on parries, and the ones that do are extremely slow and at most do 2 to 3 damage (Which is nothing). One handed weapons although buffed recently are still extremely low on the totem pole. One handed axes are still awful, one handed maces are decent as well as one handed swords - but the speed and stamina drain on them are still abysmal. Most two handed hammers have extremely harsh head hitboxes meaning you handle hit a lot with them. Spears are fine for the most part, daggers are too but have incredibly ass range. Axes I suppose are decent, but lack super good mix-ups, poleswords feel fine for the most part and poleaxes are basically another example of bad head hitboxes - but some can suffice.

More weapons =/= More variety. Where as in MO1 I can directly translate that the more magic schools mages got, the more busted they got. Did you play MO1? Have you ever been to a siege in MO1 with Necromancy and Elementalism being used? Wait until it enters MO2. HOLY FUCK it's gonna be busted.

Fist weapons were a mistake in MO1 especially with the balancing and the use of triple strike which did literally 200+ damage against people in cronite. Should they be a thing? Yes. Should they be that fucking OP, no.

Archers are a support role like mages. I'm sure you could argue they could switch to melee weapons, but just like mages if they get pushed they have to run and swap. Mages have outburst. Outburst is fucking over powered (in a good way). I've killed so many people outbursting them as they run because of the ridiculous range on it.

And no problem. The thing is a lot of people in the MO community, and I'm not saying you are doing this currently, take what others say and twist and or misconstrue it to strengthen their own argument. Usually accompanying it with strawmanning and belittling. Happens a lot.

I just feel like mages ARE good because I've played one, I've played a hybrid, and I've played a fat mage. I think I'm an above average player and I've played in other groups that were filled with other above average players and a lot of these issues were mitigated with game sense and coordination.

Honestly, I hate how they've killed hybrids. That's the only thing I really detest about magic.

 

[Highlander]

a skilled naked mage can kill super easy anyone (basic ff) just with fireballs-corrupt. good luck if u dont have a bow with you. anyway, mage is still a support class thats why sucks in pve, with new magic schools would be possible ( necro-dominator).

 

[Teknique]

why i think mages need to be treated a little differently from the team is this.... EVERYTHING you just mentioned, can be done by the FF in the same capacity and sometimes faster.

Humans can purify a fulm or corrupt for FREE heals? the tiny bandages already heal well enought to match a Fatmage Greater Heal, and that's the small bandage. The Potions heal WAAAAAY faster than mages because of terrible cast times especially on bigger spells that cost too much to cast reliably. Mages are a liability in a group fight that lasts to long. they oom and become nothing more useless than a Tampon that already fell in the pool, or a condom with a hole in it.

With the Full range of things you mentioned can you imagine a shot caller or random teammates asking for all those things at once? the mana bar just doesnt keep up. out of all the classes it has the worst sustain in a fight especially if you try to do big heals or damage. But trying to throw out discount spells when Everyone hits you for half your health bar or more is not playing on an even playing field.

the other thing is now the fact that everything outdoes you at everything regardless of the skill cap you are at. can you beat a noob? yeah sure, plenty of videos of that out there. can mages even compete at the highest lvl of pvp? NO shot.

and yeah it looks like there are magic schools on the way... but how many Weapon types are there for Melee? 7/8 with no fist weapons yet, and how many variations of those are there in each category and split between 1H and 2H that give you options on good damage and speed. with Fist weapons on the way Dual strike and Tipple strike on the way. and Archers already have more and different combos of wood types and Animal parts to make end game stuff, and they are really strong and efficient. and can out dps and interupt a mage with just simple sustain even without the best bow

I appreciate the different way you came at this conversation, i'm actually able to see clear points in your response, and able to hold a convo, i appreciate that and thanks for stopping in,

I main a mage man,

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I like mage because it gives you the most impact potential, certainly in MO 1.

This vid was 9 min long, with 1 edit so about 5 minute fights

 

[Backyard Employee]

It's funny because people always praise good foot fighters, but imagine a good foot fighter with an even better mage behind him.

Corrupts when they're needed on your target, purifies before damage even ticks, heals to save your life when you can't run or bandage; a fireball / outburst to finish the guy just out of reach as your stamina hits 0.

The worst thing to happen in a fight is if a player in your group dies. PvE or PvP. Mages prevent that.

 

[AssassinOTL]

I main a mage man,

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I like mage because it gives you the most impact potential, certainly in MO 1.

This vid was 9 min long, with 1 edit so about 5 minute fights

This goes along with what I was saying

But trying to throw out discount spells

Most of the fight you are throwing out Discount Lesser heals, you got 2 well timed EQs which were well placed and it chunks your mana, and the one you chased down with DH was a good kill too, but after 1 kill you're at 20& health or less, and without that break in the middle most of the fight you sit it out, that might be riviting gameplay for some, but for most it's just not. and if you want to reposition like you did in this video you're pidgeon holed into doing and Alvarin dex build which has the least amount of mana and hits less than most Mage builds if not all.

its a good video but it shows as soon as Mages go on the offensive, they burst one guy or maybe a group once, and it's scurry back to your spot, which i'm not against, but they should be able to have Poke potential with the big spells as well with more range, and/or less cost so they can be offensive, or have a spread of offensive/support mages. not every mage wants to be a pocket healer

 

[AssassinOTL]

Foot fighters can't corrupt or fulminate PvE or PvP enemies.

Bandages have a longer animation, make you put your weapon away, and have an internal cooldown. The only thing the same is a mage can't have his weapons out (But in MO1 you couldn't even have things equipped to cast. So buff in MO2)

Mages who can manage their mana effectively are the ones that win the long fights for their team. What are you spamming in fights?

It does. I've been in groups of 30 in MO2 and had less mages then wanted and they kept up just fine. We just taught them right I suppose.

Again, not sure what spells you're using frequently. Not going to sit here and give you a guide on playing mage in a group fight but you don't OOM quickly if you're smart.

You need mages at the highest level of PvP. The game is a parry simulator, mages break the monotony of it.

Oh. I feel like I'm watching Yu-Gi-Oh with how you stepped onto my trap card. How many melee weapons are actually viable in fights?

Think about it. Blunt weapons currently have no chipping / punch through on parries, and the ones that do are extremely slow and at most do 2 to 3 damage (Which is nothing). One handed weapons although buffed recently are still extremely low on the totem pole. One handed axes are still awful, one handed maces are decent as well as one handed swords - but the speed and stamina drain on them are still abysmal. Most two handed hammers have extremely harsh head hitboxes meaning you handle hit a lot with them. Spears are fine for the most part, daggers are too but have incredibly ass range. Axes I suppose are decent, but lack super good mix-ups, poleswords feel fine for the most part and poleaxes are basically another example of bad head hitboxes - but some can suffice.

More weapons =/= More variety. Where as in MO1 I can directly translate that the more magic schools mages got, the more busted they got. Did you play MO1? Have you ever been to a siege in MO1 with Necromancy and Elementalism being used? Wait until it enters MO2. HOLY FUCK it's gonna be busted.

Fist weapons were a mistake in MO1 especially with the balancing and the use of triple strike which did literally 200+ damage against people in cronite. Should they be a thing? Yes. Should they be that fucking OP, no.

Archers are a support role like mages. I'm sure you could argue they could switch to melee weapons, but just like mages if they get pushed they have to run and swap. Mages have outburst. Outburst is fucking over powered (in a good way). I've killed so many people outbursting them as they run because of the ridiculous range on it.

And no problem. The thing is a lot of people in the MO community, and I'm not saying you are doing this currently, take what others say and twist and or misconstrue it to strengthen their own argument. Usually accompanying it with strawmanning and belittling. Happens a lot.

I just feel like mages ARE good because I've played one, I've played a hybrid, and I've played a fat mage. I think I'm an above average player and I've played in other groups that were filled with other above average players and a lot of these issues were mitigated with game sense and coordination.

Honestly, I hate how they've killed hybrids. That's the only thing I really detest about magic.

I appreciate the offer, i'm not asking how to play the game, i'm saying the way the system is set up there really is only one way to play, and it is not fun, it's fun for the FF and at some point the mage wants to do his own thing, and do damage, because the FF has the capability to do those things on their own it's not something unique, this game is very redundant, and when the wallets are pulled out, this is the state in a month that we're at, we're out of time now.

all magic does it currently provide opportunistic situations in fights to secure a kill, and sometimes you'll pull off one, but the class has so many flaws that it depends to heavily on others, never are you going to have someone with you 24/7 in this game, and it will happen that you are solo, and the class just doesn't provide what you have to pay out for it, with the restrictions on the class, there's no payoff for good gameplay within the limits, any other game if a class had this many restrictions it would be because it had the highest damage output in the game, and that's just not the case right now when in 36 days they are asking players to open their wallets.

a lot of what you're saying about weapons not being viable, is true of most spells as you can see From Teq's video a mage's fight consists of throwing out discount spells the entire time, and he did a total of 5 attacks in 9 minutes, if that's the pace of mage there's no way you can say that's over powered, if a melee did 50 uncharged slashes or swings, and 5 of them were charged (not flash) you wouldnt say... "yeah that's fine" or "that's OP" because that's the equivalent or as close as i can get to have you understand it's in a bad place.

The class needs some love, in the current state it doesnt feel fun, it makes others have fun right? so is it too much to ask to make it more fun for the class that's supporting everyone else's fun?

 

[Backyard Employee]

I appreciate the offer, i'm not asking how to play the game, i'm saying the way the system is set up there really is only one way to play, and it is not fun, it's fun for the FF and at some point the mage wants to do his own thing, and do damage, because the FF has the capability to do those things on their own it's not something unique, this game is very redundant, and when the wallets are pulled out, this is the state in a month that we're at, we're out of time now.

all magic does it currently provide opportunistic situations in fights to secure a kill, and sometimes you'll pull off one, but the class has so many flaws that it depends to heavily on others, never are you going to have someone with you 24/7 in this game, and it will happen that you are solo, and the class just doesn't provide what you have to pay out for it, with the restrictions on the class, there's no payoff for good gameplay within the limits, any other game if a class had this many restrictions it would be because it had the highest damage output in the game, and that's just not the case right now when in 36 days they are asking players to open their wallets.

a lot of what you're saying about weapons not being viable, is true of most spells as you can see From Teq's video a mage's fight consists of throwing out discount spells the entire time, and he did a total of 5 attacks in 9 minutes, if that's the pace of mage there's no way you can say that's over powered, if a melee did 50 uncharged slashes or swings, and 5 of them were charged (not flash) you wouldnt say... "yeah that's fine" or "that's OP" because that's the equivalent or as close as i can get to have you understand it's in a bad place.

The class needs some love, in the current state it doesnt feel fun, it makes others have fun right? so is it too much to ask to make it more fun for the class that's supporting everyone else's fun?

So just to clarify to make sure I'm understand what you're saying: You have a problem with the class being not viable solo?

 

[AssassinOTL]

So just to clarify to make sure I'm understand what you're saying: You have a problem with the class being not viable solo?

no its just that the class doesn't feel good, all other classes are so unlimited in what they do, they do what they do the best, and Mage is just not anything like the other class, it's just piled up with a ton of Restrictive handicaps, and they keep piling them on and it'll be 6 months before we get a decent magic school, and it'll be released in pieces over a 3 month period. it's not like you can do much during the leveling process, it's just bad, you cant "group up" to level better, you'll level at a slow pace simply because you cant solo. it needs something get it on it's feet and to give more options to them.

I mean there's an exclusive Mage guild... nothing but mages, you'd think they'd get the idea to not make the class feel like its swimming in mud.

 

[WolfAchilles]

I can't with this guy. As active on the forums as Tzone and less than a quarter as many valid things to say.
1. Mages can absolutely do dungeons.... In fact they're pretty crucial for dungeons. The aggro in most dungeons isn't that complicated, so if you find that the mobs aggro on your healers every time, that's a hint you're doing something wrong. Even fat mages can go in dungeons and be extremely useful.
2. It's a pattern.... Lying out your ass. You can't seriously say that bandage is equal in value to greater heal. I can't take a word out of you seriously after that one. Humans have purify = mages having purify isn't really valuable. How many human fighters do you see? What about literally everyone else? Mages oom in one minute and after that are a liability to your group. I've played footmage a little bit. Granted that was months ago, but I can't remember ooming in a fight once. I've played fatmage a bit now too. I can farm the graveyard with fulms and outbursts all day long. I never even thought about my mana pool, and I didn't take breaks to rest either. If you're consistently facing the problem that you're ooming, I think that's another queue that the issue is your gameplay.
3. "can mages even compete at the highest lvl of pvp? NO shot." Mages are crucial to higher end pvp. I don't know what game you've been playing that you think mages can't compete. A couple guildies were dicking around in fab gy a week ago, and we attacked some folks and one of them was actually staying alive for a while. He was really good at parrying. I was playing a fatmage, said "Parry this you filthy casual," and hit him 80 something with a flamestrike. Then I TLed him for a 50. When you're facing skilled players, it turns out that being able to hit them from a distance and in a way that cannot be blocked is really powerful.
4. "if you want to reposition like you did in this video you're pidgeon holed into doing and Alvarin dex build" O...M...G. If you want the maneuverability of a dex mage you have to build a dex mage? Inconceivable! You can play a human paladin. It's not the hybrid of MO1 (which I miss, SV please take another look at the linear scaling of int, bring back hybrids) but it's playable. I haven't personally tried but I bet you could roll a pretty decent human mage. You don't have the broken as hell combat jump of the alvarin, but you're decently fast still. Alvarin is a much stronger clade than human so truth be told, I'd expect an alvarin to be better than a human in most specialized roles. The human advantage is filling multiple more general roles. You can definitely roll a strong oghmir mage. A dwarf won't be as maneuverable, but makes up for it in tankiness.
You might notice that the pros and cons of each clade as I just mentioned, also apply to foot characters. Foot characters don't get to have it all either. That's how they're balanced and why every clade is fun in a different way.
From how you talk about the game, it seems like you play naked more than half the time. If you've ever healed somebody in heavy armor and watched the morale of the people trying to keep him drop through the floor, then you lack perspective on the topic. Heals are really powerful. Outburst has pretty considerable damage for a ranged attack that cannot be blocked by skill on the part of the defender. Corrupt is an insanely strong spell. First, every tick of damage now drains some of the target's stamina. The amount of chaos it causes when an enemy tries to heal a corrupted target is not half bad either. If you're fighting a lone fighter, the fact that you can prevent him from healing without putting yourself in harm's way is also powerful.
That's really an important concept. A mage can put out damage without putting themselves at risk. You can counter that saying that archery has the same affect, but since archery drains your stamina pretty hard, that's a foolish argument. Stamming yourself out in a group fight is, by itself, putting yourself at risk. If on my thursar, I want to stop an enemy from getting a good heal from their bandage, I have to land a good hit on them. That means burning stam and giving the enemy an opportunity for a riposte. There is no corresponding element for a mage. There's no counterplay to magic, so whining that it can't do everything that melee can do is silly.
Also really important to note: Mages are a lot better at having pets than fighters are. All your stats give bonuses to Taming and CC, not to mention the ability to actually heal your pets easily. For this reason, I think saying that mages are more restricted than fighters is a joke too. Fighters have nearly all their points taken up. The change to MM in the action skills removed that gap between magery and combat characters, and I agree that it feels bad. All the other classes have those things that feel bad. Welcome to the party.
I've said it before but I don't mind repeating myself. The real complaint for magic is that you cannot PvE on your own. Farming on a mage sucks ass. Sure you've got profession skill point bonuses so maybe your character would be better suited to mining, but that's bullshit and we all know it. I'd love to see a good strictly PvE spell in ecumenical that allowed a mage to farm razorbacks without too much of a struggle. My first idea is some sort of stacking %Max HP DOT. Maybe it stacks when you punch a mob with your bare hands so that you can parry like a melee and with your riposte you add another stack of the DOT. I dunno I'm just spitballing.
It sounds like you want to be frontlining on your mage and spamming TLs and when you get killed for your playstyle you conclude that the problem is with the game. You can't have that on a class without counterplay.

 

[Kaemik]

good luck if u dont have a bow with you.

Not arguing one way or the other on if mages are currently good/bad, but footfighters are also bad if you don't spec into a melee weapon, anatomy, and dump strength for psyche.

"If you don't put 100 points into one of the best skills in the game already having stacked the attribute it works off of your build will be bad."

Of course it will. What kind of FF doesn't drop 100 points into archery right now? Who seriously expects that to be a viable build option in the current meta?

 

[WolfAchilles]

Think about it. Blunt weapons currently have no chipping / punch through on parries, and the ones that do are extremely slow and at most do 2 to 3 damage (Which is nothing). One handed weapons although buffed recently are still extremely low on the totem pole. One handed axes are still awful, one handed maces are decent as well as one handed swords - but the speed and stamina drain on them are still abysmal. Most two handed hammers have extremely harsh head hitboxes meaning you handle hit a lot with them. Spears are fine for the most part, daggers are too but have incredibly ass range. Axes I suppose are decent, but lack super good mix-ups, poleswords feel fine for the most part and poleaxes are basically another example of bad head hitboxes - but some can suffice.

More weapons =/= More variety. Where as in MO1 I can directly translate that the more magic schools mages got, the more busted they got. Did you play MO1? Have you ever been to a siege in MO1 with Necromancy and Elementalism being used? Wait until it enters MO2. HOLY FUCK it's gonna be busted.

I meme a lot about poleswords. I ask for buffs to them constantly. I get memed for it and that's fine. I even enjoy it. The reason I do is because I firmly believe that the MO1 polesword meta was actually the most fun, varied, and skill expressive meta in the game. 1H weapons as a whole were dog poop, except for daggers and spears, and to be honest I often forget about them entirely. However among 2h weapons, every weapon type saw use. Pole weapons also are more reliant on distance and spacing in combat, so they also benefitted NA players and others with worse ping as parrying and defensive gameplay was less reliable on higher ping.
Axe and poleaxe type weapons are meant to hit really f'n hard. In MO2, I honestly think both of those weapon types hit their mark really well. Spears are also in a really good spot. Poleswords fit in the same category as poleaxes as far as weapon type and weapon skill goes. Both are polearms and both require axe and spear skill to use. Unfortunately, the stat balance between the two sucks. Poleswords have far less damage and barely more speed, while, for some reason, they have substantially worse stam drain. Please explain why a risar sword blade, with the blueprint lookin the way it does, have more pierce than the risar glaive?
Poleswords/Glaives are artificially weak for no discernable reason other than people are traumatized from having a broad, diverse, and a skill expressive meta for so long in MO1

 

[ArcaneConsular]

You certainly have to sacrifice a lot to play a viable mage. Either skinny or fat, extremely slow, low carry weight.

 

[AssassinOTL]

I can't with this guy. As active on the forums as Tzone and less than a quarter as many valid things to say.
1. Mages can absolutely do dungeons.... In fact they're pretty crucial for dungeons. The aggro in most dungeons isn't that complicated, so if you find that the mobs aggro on your healers every time, that's a hint you're doing something wrong. Even fat mages can go in dungeons and be extremely useful.
2. It's a pattern.... Lying out your ass. You can't seriously say that bandage is equal in value to greater heal. I can't take a word out of you seriously after that one. Humans have purify = mages having purify isn't really valuable. How many human fighters do you see? What about literally everyone else? Mages oom in one minute and after that are a liability to your group. I've played footmage a little bit. Granted that was months ago, but I can't remember ooming in a fight once. I've played fatmage a bit now too. I can farm the graveyard with fulms and outbursts all day long. I never even thought about my mana pool, and I didn't take breaks to rest either. If you're consistently facing the problem that you're ooming, I think that's another queue that the issue is your gameplay.
3. "can mages even compete at the highest lvl of pvp? NO shot." Mages are crucial to higher end pvp. I don't know what game you've been playing that you think mages can't compete. A couple guildies were dicking around in fab gy a week ago, and we attacked some folks and one of them was actually staying alive for a while. He was really good at parrying. I was playing a fatmage, said "Parry this you filthy casual," and hit him 80 something with a flamestrike. Then I TLed him for a 50. When you're facing skilled players, it turns out that being able to hit them from a distance and in a way that cannot be blocked is really powerful.
4. "if you want to reposition like you did in this video you're pidgeon holed into doing and Alvarin dex build" O...M...G. If you want the maneuverability of a dex mage you have to build a dex mage? Inconceivable! You can play a human paladin. It's not the hybrid of MO1 (which I miss, SV please take another look at the linear scaling of int, bring back hybrids) but it's playable. I haven't personally tried but I bet you could roll a pretty decent human mage. You don't have the broken as hell combat jump of the alvarin, but you're decently fast still. Alvarin is a much stronger clade than human so truth be told, I'd expect an alvarin to be better than a human in most specialized roles. The human advantage is filling multiple more general roles. You can definitely roll a strong oghmir mage. A dwarf won't be as maneuverable, but makes up for it in tankiness.
You might notice that the pros and cons of each clade as I just mentioned, also apply to foot characters. Foot characters don't get to have it all either. That's how they're balanced and why every clade is fun in a different way.
From how you talk about the game, it seems like you play naked more than half the time. If you've ever healed somebody in heavy armor and watched the morale of the people trying to keep him drop through the floor, then you lack perspective on the topic. Heals are really powerful. Outburst has pretty considerable damage for a ranged attack that cannot be blocked by skill on the part of the defender. Corrupt is an insanely strong spell. First, every tick of damage now drains some of the target's stamina. The amount of chaos it causes when an enemy tries to heal a corrupted target is not half bad either. If you're fighting a lone fighter, the fact that you can prevent him from healing without putting yourself in harm's way is also powerful.
That's really an important concept. A mage can put out damage without putting themselves at risk. You can counter that saying that archery has the same affect, but since archery drains your stamina pretty hard, that's a foolish argument. Stamming yourself out in a group fight is, by itself, putting yourself at risk. If on my thursar, I want to stop an enemy from getting a good heal from their bandage, I have to land a good hit on them. That means burning stam and giving the enemy an opportunity for a riposte. There is no corresponding element for a mage. There's no counterplay to magic, so whining that it can't do everything that melee can do is silly.
Also really important to note: Mages are a lot better at having pets than fighters are. All your stats give bonuses to Taming and CC, not to mention the ability to actually heal your pets easily. For this reason, I think saying that mages are more restricted than fighters is a joke too. Fighters have nearly all their points taken up. The change to MM in the action skills removed that gap between magery and combat characters, and I agree that it feels bad. All the other classes have those things that feel bad. Welcome to the party.
I've said it before but I don't mind repeating myself. The real complaint for magic is that you cannot PvE on your own. Farming on a mage sucks ass. Sure you've got profession skill point bonuses so maybe your character would be better suited to mining, but that's bullshit and we all know it. I'd love to see a good strictly PvE spell in ecumenical that allowed a mage to farm razorbacks without too much of a struggle. My first idea is some sort of stacking %Max HP DOT. Maybe it stacks when you punch a mob with your bare hands so that you can parry like a melee and with your riposte you add another stack of the DOT. I dunno I'm just spitballing.
It sounds like you want to be frontlining on your mage and spamming TLs and when you get killed for your playstyle you conclude that the problem is with the game. You can't have that on a class without counterplay.

Wolf if you want to say that Pvp at the Highest level doesnt have dedicated Divers just for mages then that's wrong, and the fact that Mages have the lowest stam pool because they hide stam in Strength that they give the FFs and Divers massive amounts of over the mage, it makes kiting ineffective on just about every clade except Alvarin, and that even is sketchy because divers with Arrows nullify the class completely, you could counter this with a mounted mage and the current Batch completely killed that by nerfing Concentration to 30% (half base) where you just sit there or ride around and become a pin cushion with little to no way to answer back, that's not balance, that's a punishing disability that can make you easily get 5/5 interrupts on long cast times after you've spent 100 points into it, that's just worst with now less points in a build that is the most AP required class,

you think it's tight on Points for fighter? it's even more so on Mage where most mages might drop blocking, Endurance, or defensive, and aggressive stance, things that we dont have the points for but have to face FFs that have the clear advantage already and those points in their pocket, and they pulled from that already if you want to try to dip into those points.

another thing is for the class with the most restricted play the DPS is absolute garbage, and it has the worst mobility while trying to put down that damage. with the smallest Stam pool and sometimes i(n the Dex mage's case) lower HP pool and in the case of Fat mage you're a fish in a barrel because you're easily caught and put down with little to no way to do damage unless you want to spec into Melee with the limited to no points you have and have to cut things below and effective level

keep in mind these are all points from the POV of a Full mage, with all Magic schools (that are now hidden behind boss fights now) and some sprinkled behind PVE that the full mage cannot do solo.

i agree that yes there needs to be another spell similar to what you proposed, but i don't agree it should be PvE exclusive, for the full mages that are not on the front line with melee weapons, it's just you watching most of the fight on the bench handing out water bottles.

also waiting for friends to grind your mats for housing is not a good gameplay loop, i have by far more playtime of most if not all groups i play with and no, your not always in a group setting, and sometimes I'm in a group I'm not familiar with and the way i play changes, and the class feels terrible in that setting because they have to either be used to how I play, or I figure out how their mages trained them to play with backup.... big surprise! not everyone plays the same! all gamers are different and want to bring their own playstyle in here, playing predictable is boring and stupidly easy to counter for a community that prides themselves in a hardcore game it sounds like you want a copy pasta of mages all across nave, that's boring and uninspired, and not unique to this game, it's time to go above UO and make it Mortal Online. be better

 

[AssassinOTL]

You certainly have to sacrifice a lot to play a viable mage. Either skinny or fat, extremely slow, low carry weight.

that's just an unfortunate fact, and with the least amount of clade gifts dedicated to magic, there's more to counter than to support

 

[Kaemik]

Melee does require a fair few points to be given up as well but as I pointed out above, Archery is 100 point drop. Everything beyond the first primary is entirely optional unless you go MA, and 226 points - bonuses if you do go MA. I've said this before in other topics. 100 point archery builds needs a nerfbat, and full spec archery builds need a significant buff.

It makes no sense to basically be handing FF's an additional nearly free role. If they want to be good at it, they need to invest heavily enough into it to hurt their melee performance. This is the reason MA's are currently broken. Because you can currently run melee+archery on foot and horseback and be relatively darn good at all 4 of those roles on the same character. MA's wouldn't be broken if they required a 500 point investment to actually unlock most of their power. Even if they were stronger than they are now at archery alone.

 

[WolfAchilles]

Melee does require a fair few points to be given up as well but as I pointed out above, Archery is 100 point drop. Everything beyond the first primary is entirely optional unless you go MA, and 226 points - bonuses if you do go MA. I've said this before in other topics. 100 point archery builds needs a nerfbat, and full spec archery builds need a significant buff.

It makes no sense to basically be handing FF's an additional nearly free role. If they want to be good at it, they need to invest heavily enough into it to hurt their melee performance. This is the reason MA's are currently broken. Because you can currently run melee+archery on foot and horseback and be relatively darn good at all 4 of those roles on the same character. MA's wouldn't be broken if they required a 500 point investment to actually unlock most of their power. Even if they were stronger than they are now at archery alone.

The problem with making archery so primary heavy is that it really is not viable without melee capability to back it up. On foot at least. If your group gets pushed and you play archer, you cannot soak fighter pressure. You can output dps, even decent dps, but if someone is on you and you only have a bow, you're dead. You can't step in front of a wounded ally to body block and soak pressure from the enemy as an archer. That's the real issue. You can't peel for your allies with a bow.
I suppose if your goal is to be a fps god, headshotting everyone for dps and you get rewarded with WS chance on heads, that could be cool. Alvarin dex archer would be obscene in the right situations under those circumstances.

Wolf if you want to say that Pvp at the Highest level doesnt have dedicated Divers just for mages then that's wrong, and the fact that Mages have the lowest stam pool because they hide stam in Strength that they give the FFs and Divers massive amounts of over the mage, it makes kiting ineffective on just about every clade except Alvarin, and that even is sketchy because divers with Arrows nullify the class completely, you could counter this with a mounted mage

Diving a mage is 100% a common strategy in high level pvp. You got that right. Good job. Diving is the highest risk highest reward tactic for a fighter to pull off during a fight. That means divers die an awful lot. I can't tell if you want the fighter to have a harder time killing you once he's on you or if you actually want to beat the fighter 1v1 once he's closed the distance. If you want to try your hand at parrying a fighter, be my guest. If you can parry properly, the fighter will usually run out of stam before you run out of hp, and then he's a sitting duck.
What is it that would improve the game state? How many minutes would you like to be able to spam TLs for? What would satisfy you? How much more MS or attribute points would you like to see allocated to which clades. Do you want thursar to have fewer stat points again so that they can't max their hight for damage bonus anymore? Do veela fighters do too much damage to you so you want their str cap lower?
What would it take for mages to be fun? Do you want dozens of DOT stacking abilities so you can feel like a mastermind of the fight? Do you just want hybrid to be viable again, which would necessitate readdressing stat curves? If you want your mage to be able to beat a fighter in a 1v1 after he's closed the distance on you, and you don't want to play a build faster than the fighter, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Alvarin aren't the only playable footmages, but they're the best for a reason. It seems like you don't want your playstyle to have the same downsides that every other playstyle is subject to. I'm a thursar. I cannot consistently get a kill on alvarin mages. It's a downside of my build. I'm okay with that because the rest of the playstyle is so much fun for me. There are definitely times when playing my fighter is not fun.