If Nothing Else, Make Races Good at What They SHOULD Be Good At

[KermyWormy]

I personally don't like the move towards homogenized races, I think it's boring and dull. Races being different and having meaningful strengths and weaknesses adds to to the game.

Race differences has always been a part of dungeons and dragons and other rpg systems and I think most would argue that's a successful type of system that people enjoy. Would d&d be better if races didn't matter at all? If all your race choice meant was a different avatar on your character sheet do you really think that's a more engaging system?

No one would argue that right? But people here argue for changes like that almost every day, and they eat it up when these wayward devs keep moving the line in the sand over and over.

But no one seems to see the eventual destination this type of homogenization brings us to. It won't make the game better but worse.

To me the problem isn't that the races are too different or too specialized or anything like that. The problem is that SV has been bad at balancing their game, and the lore that they've come up with for their races never translated to in game performance. That's why we have had useless feeling race combinations for so long.

They messed up from the very beginning and never sorted it out. They've worked on the same car for 15 years but never bothered to fix the transmission. Fix the transmission and maybe then they'll have working car worth driving.

It's been an underlying problem for so long. If the in game performance matched the lore, and there weren't any useless options, and these strengths and weaknesses were made clear to new players during character creation the problem sorts itself out. People pick the option that fits the playstyle they have in mind, and the majority of players would be cool with that.

 

[Kaemik]

If a kid is failing in literally every single class you aren't going to stop pushing them to do better just because they stop failing in a single class.

The line in the sand isn't getting moved. The line in the sand is there should be some legitimate choice among race/build and that those choices should somewhat logically reflect what those races are good at instead of Khurites being trash MAs.

They've made tiny bits of incremental progress toward that goal. They are still a long way away. There has only ever been one line in the sand they're just so far from it and making such slow progress for it, it may appear that way to the crowd who doesn't really care about having an authentic world with meaningful choices in a roleplaying game.

And no "If you're ranger you need to be an elf, a fighter you need to be a dwarf, and a barbarian you need to be a half-orc" isn't having an authentic world with meaningful choices. There needs to be a variety of options for every race and class. The illusion of choice is in many ways worse than some trashy race-lock system.

I don't think anyone seriously would prefer homogenized races over good racial balance (correct me if I'm wrong people) if we could get either of those things quickly. I think it's just that SV has been failing so hard, for so long, some people have reached a point where they want a simple solution they feel SV is capable of. Just like in the previous example of a student failing most of their classes, you might pull them out of regular school and put them in a remedial one if they have too little progress for too long. Everyone would prefer that student succeed in regular school, but if they're incapable of it, it's understandable to take more drastic measures sometimes.

I don't really support homogenizing races. I don't think there is THAT much more progress needed to get this system semi-acceptably balanced if we stop getting people like you and Lord Yoshi encouraging them to not do that. But I would support it over a "this is fine" mentality where we pretend this system is even close to good enough.

And yes when/if they reached "semi-acceptably balanced" I may continue to urge them to do better. However, I'm not going to continue to say they have the worst racial balance of any game I've ever played and that it's complete trash if they can make a system that isn't objectively trash to anyone holding them to any kind of a standard. Right now... it really is that bad if your head isn't buried in your posterior.

Edit: Also homogenizing races won't work for MO2. Everyone would play Veela because even with same stats hitboxes matter.

 

[ThaBadMan]

All races being the same has little to do with a sandbox. Actually a lot of themeparks have very similar races so that everyone can be an efficient warrior type but roleplay as a hamster/orc/elf/giant slimebug.

I would put this more into the hardcore niche, since differenciated races force you make decisions that are impactful. Forcing decisions that are meaningful is part of most if not all hardcore games. In singleplayer this is done by roguelikes with perma death f.e.

The sandbox comes in when players can use those races to find niches and fullfill specific roles both as part of guild or solo. The hardcore bit means that you can make a wrong decision and that might force you to reroll to a character that is better for the niche you were planning on being in. Or continue developing your character and adjusting it.

Being able to fill a niche is what makes playing in a sandbox fullfilling. The only reason why you say that there were two viable characters is that you only consider two roles: fighter and mage. To be fair at the time there was little else to do, but that changed over the years. More features means more specific roles to fill, which might be better filled with a set up outside the meta.

That being said I think it´s perfectly fine if Thursars are beasts in melee, Sheevras amazing mages, Veelas sprinters and humans around average with a broad spread of skillpoints bonuses. Till yesterday I thought Henrik was still on that track - then they nerfed Alvarins to the point where their speed advantage is close to meaningless. Another niche closed and the game moved closer to a thempark/PvP arena hybrid. I believe that a game made from bought assets with shrunken down crafting, dumbed down characters that´s trying to merge themepark mechanics with a sandbox will fail. Indies don´t make themepark MMOs for a reason.

Forcing players into 1 or 2 races hurts sandbox aspect and makes it more of a "themepark/pvp arena hybrid" where you have to be an orc as melee class like in wow or you're hurting yourself. Having system as it is when its a game focused heavily around pvp there will be a lot less choice between races, either make the right one or have a build thats less efficient and could get you killed in certain situations, then need to reroll and get frustrated (rightfully so) as a new player. Sandbox should have choices in race selection look at things like roleplay too. If you are looking at it from a realism/sandbox/choice/whatevertf standpoint then every race should be viable at every role with only a few exceptions.

Also it seems contradictory to laugh at people wanting to roleplay different races while doing what is enjoyable in combat while also saying being able to select every character makes it more of a pvp arena game, I don't get it.

Buying assets is nothing new and is normal in a ton of games, it's why theres a market for it.

Thing is as Rulant says when your new you choose based on what you like from reading or from looks. 2 months in and alot of progression and you find out your choice was trash in what you want to play is not exactly something that makes you stay and play the game.

Imo its nothing hardcore about bad race design that force you into themepark "roles" elves being magic or archery based, humans all arounders and orcs the combat beasts. Thats an old and outdated system that should be buried 10 years ago.

A sandbox is about choices, the more forced features lessens the sandbox experience since in a sandbox you as a hafling can be as strong and hardy as a giant if thats how you build yourself or you can be a "dumb" giant be a banker or politician or a diplomat since his starting attribute points or starting skills can be discarded and completely rebuilt with no caps different than other races.
This will ofc be slightly different in size, etc but not for gameplay effected stats/skills/attributes which should be about player choice not forced narratives.

As I have said numerous times though I can agree to racial changes if backed by lore that enhances the game but not if its only downsides.

Atm from MO to MO2 the biggest racial changes has been in accordance to the lore as in Kallards now seem to be the best warriors close with Thursar Kallard/khurite which many seem to not like. I however like it better than MOs since now races are in general more alike gameplay wise.

My preferred one is races equal with a shared max cap for balance with minor racial bonuses to differentiate them. Said bonuses could impact gameplay if only minor impact if its not impacting gamplay Id vote for the biggest possible bonuses. Im all for immersion and lore building but not for gameplay forced shenanigans. Why not let a Thursar be a mage, Warlock, Alchemist, etc. Customization and options is important imo, I dont want to see everyone as same races in same equipment again in MO2.

 

[ThaBadMan]

If a kid is failing in literally every single class you aren't going to stop pushing them to do better just because they stop failing in a single class.

The line in the sand isn't getting moved. The line in the sand is there should be some legitimate choice among race/build and that those choices should somewhat logically reflect what those races are good at instead of Khurites being trash MAs.

They've made tiny bits of incremental progress toward that goal. They are still a long way away. There has only ever been one line in the sand they're just so far from it and making such slow progress for it, it may appear that way to the crowd who doesn't really care about having an authentic world with meaningful choices in a roleplaying game.

And no "If you're ranger you need to be an elf, a fighter you need to be a dwarf, and a barbarian you need to be a half-orc" isn't having an authentic world with meaningful choices. There needs to be a variety of options for every race and class. The illusion of choice is in many ways worse than some trashy race-lock system.

I don't think anyone seriously would prefer homogenized races over good racial balance (correct me if I'm wrong people) if we could get either of those things quickly. I think it's just that SV has been failing so hard, for so long, some people have reached a point where they want a simple solution they feel SV is capable of. Just like in the previous example of a student failing most of their classes, you might pull them out of regular school and put them in a remedial one if they have too little progress for too long. Everyone would prefer that student succeed in regular school, but if they're incapable of it, it's understandable to take more drastic measures sometimes.

I don't really support homogenizing races. I don't think there is THAT much more progress needed to get this system semi-acceptably balanced if we stop getting people like you and Lord Yoshi encouraging them to not do that. But I would support it over a "this is fine" mentality where we pretend this system is even close to good enough.

And yes when/if they reached "semi-acceptably balanced" I may continue to urge them to do better. However, I'm not going to continue to say they have the worst racial balance of any game I've ever played and that it's complete trash if they can make a system that isn't objectively trash to anyone holding them to any kind of a standard. Right now... it really is that bad if your head isn't buried in your posterior.

Edit: Also homogenizing races won't work for MO2. Everyone would play Veela because even with same stats hitboxes matter.

Yes dont ask much of SV or expect disappointment, been so for 10 years dont expect change unless you see change.

I do think you mean Oghmir, everyone would be tiny red imps or tiny hairy apes if its hitbox concerns.

 

[Kaemik]

I'm cautiously optimistic to see "Racial Balance" on the roadmap. I'll hold off further commentary on this subject until we see what that means.

 

[a.out]

I'm cautiously optimistic to see "Racial Balance" on the roadmap. I'll hold off further commentary on this subject until we see what that means.

Yea, they just *have* to see that this still needs much thought at this point. This topic has always been an issue and ties into the whole how can we make all attributes somewhat desirable for all roles.

 

[Kaemik]

Just a reaction to the current patch. I was not proposing to make humans generally better at everything. Some humans builds already seemed very good. I was proposing we make human races more balanced against EACH OTHER within the clade. Buffing humans doesn't make a Khurite better vs a Kallard for instance.

I was somewhat hopeful, but boy did you ever disappoint:

• Added 16 extra attribute points to pure Tindremenes.
• Added 8 extra attribute points to Sidoians.
• Added 16 extra attribute points to Sarducaans.
• Added 4 extra attribute points to Kallards.

I'm not sure how to spell this out any more plainly.

KHURITES ARE THE ABSOLUTE WORST RACE IN THE GAME!

Kallards have more strength, more con, more attribute pool, and more size. Khurites have more dex. YOU NERFED DEX. And their low attribute pool means that aren't even a very good choice for hybrids anymore.

Kallards are better foot fighters. Every human is a better hybrid. Damn near every race in the game is better at nearly any form of mounted build (Despite the lore saying the complete opposite).

And you... BUFFED EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BUT KHURITES?!

WHAT THE HELL GUYS?!

 

[Skydancer]

I was somewhat hopeful, but boy did you ever disappoint:

• Added 16 extra attribute points to pure Tindremenes.
• Added 8 extra attribute points to Sidoians.
• Added 16 extra attribute points to Sarducaans.
• Added 4 extra attribute points to Kallards.

I'm not sure how to spell this out any more plainly.

KHURITES ARE THE ABSOLUTE WORST RACE IN THE GAME!

Kallards have more strength, more con, more attribute pool, and more size. Khurites have more dex. YOU NERFED DEX. And their low attribute pool means that aren't even a very good choice for hybrids anymore.

Kallards are better foot fighters. Every human is a better hybrid. Damn near every race in the game is better at nearly any form of mounted build (Despitet the lore saying otherwise).

And you... BUFFED EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BUT KHURITES?!

WHAT THE HELL GUYS?!

This cemented for me that SV have no idea what they are doing - if they think that is the balance the game needed, then this is me checking out. On the bright side when they go bankrupt maybe someone smarter will buy the IP

 

[Kaemik]

This cemented for me that SV have no idea what they are doing - if they think that is the balance the game needed, then this is me checking out. On the bright side when they go bankrupt maybe someone smarter will buy the IP

Thankfully I came in prepared to play any race I need to play to be viable. It's just frustrating to see options eliminated in an RPG. And Khurites have been entirely eliminated as even a halfway decent mixer race by this recent patch IMO.

 

[Avenoma]

I feel you guys are in the min/max mindset too much. Come on, you guys are just worried your friends wont like you unless you are the best spec, in their mind. gimme a break...

 

[Avenoma]

This cemented for me that SV have no idea what they are doing - if they think that is the balance the game needed, then this is me checking out. On the bright side when they go bankrupt maybe someone smarter will buy the IP

This cemented it for me, that the vast majority of you guys have no clue how to play a simulation.

 

[Avenoma]

I will leave this game because of guys like that before anything SV does. That kind of thinking makes me sick...

 

[Kaemik]

If you don't care about balance, you have no place commenting on it. This game is a competitive game just as much as it is a game focused on immersion. I care about both aspects.

 

[Avenoma]

THATS THE WAY YOU PLAY IT. gime a break ahahahah. ITS NOT A GAME. ITS A REAL LIFE SIMULATION BASED ON FANTASY. YOU HAVE NO BUISNESS HAVING BUSINESS WITH ME.

Edit: Its that kind of one sided thinking that gets people into trouble. Enjoy what trouble you create. I luv the trouble I create.

This isnt fucking gk dude.

 

[Kaemik]

You are the one coming in and saying that if we give a crap about the competitive aspect (The reason most players are playing the game) that we are playing the game wrong. You're the jerk here bud. Funnily enough, it puts you in the same camp as players like Lord Yoshi who only care about the competitive aspect and don't give a crap about immersion or the fact this game is an RPG. Who cares that Khurites are a trash race pick and don't fit the lore of the game at all when your character is nothing but numbers to you?

Wanting your race pick to not entirely nerf your character isn't "one-sided thinking". It's recognizing this is a game that has a competitive aspect as well as a game with a roleplaying aspect. And that those two sides of this game need to be married logically by not making your roleplaying choices completely nerf your competitive viability.

 

[Avenoma]

wutever duuu. seeya in game.