If Nothing Else, Make Races Good at What They SHOULD Be Good At

Kaemik

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KHURITES

iu


Mortal Lore: "The Khurites are among the best riders in the world, and the horse and mammoth play important roles in their culture and society."

Historical Basis: The Khurites clearly draw inspiration primarily from the steppe nomads such as the Mongolians and Huns. Such tribes were famed for their cavalry. Particularly cavalry archers. That is not to say they had no foot-forces because they did. But their mounted forces were the most feared.

Reasonably, if there is one race that is OP as a mounted race it should be Khurites. ESPECIALLY as mounted archers. But they're among the worse. Low strength compared to Kallards and Ohgmir with no bonus to make up for it like a Veela leaves their bow damage underwhelming while as mounted melee they suffer greatly from their small size. And they have

Possible Fix: Khurite Only Bonus where they apply dex to mounted turn speed and dismount resistance and their highest CC point horse does not count against their total CC pool nor incur a herding penalty.

Not only would I argue this isn't overpowered. It might still leave them underpowered and require additional bonuses. They're still left with lower bow pull strength and lower melee damage bonus than other MAs but at least they have some basis for arguing they are strong mounted builds as they absolutely should be.

TINDREMENES

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Historical Basis: Tindremenes are clearly based on the Romans, whose heavy infantry were the backbone of their military might. You see this reflected in-game as well with Roman styles for some Tindremene gear and heavy knight armor being called Tindremenic. While it is true they seem to have come somewhat away from their Roman origins modern Tindremenes in Mortal still appear a combination their Roman origins and the European age of chivalry, in which heavy infantry are still quite important.

But in-game? They are a potentially good hybrid build. Kallards, Thursars, and Ohgmir all put them to shame as heavy infantry to the point rolling a Tindremene for that role is insanity.

Possible Fix: Give Tindremenes a defensive buff aura for nearby allies when they have a shield out. This should stack but with diminishing returns OR raise how high of weight Tindremenes can have before stamina regen falls off OR give Tinderemenes an attack bonus when wielding a shield.

Really anything that puts them in the same class as other top-tier heavy-infantry races. Infact I would go so far as to say that for a full-armor / shield build they should be better than anything but Ohgmir who should have certain respective strengths and weaknesses compared to them as heavy infantry.

CONCLUSION

I could go on. The middle east has it's own proud cavalry traditions and logically Sarduucans should make some of the best handlers of camels and elephants. etc.

Even with other suggestions I've spoken about concerning racial balance, it might be good to give races within a clade some of their own bonuses to make sure they are good at the things the lore and world would set people up to think they'll be good at. You could either set this up as the dominant race that gives your appearance gives 100% of the bonuses, or that the bonuses are present in different strengths depending on how many ancestors from each race you have.

Like honestly, if you don't think Khurites not being good MAs is a huge issue then you clearly give no shits about this game creating a believable fantasy setting that people can immerse themselves in. We should be able to use the lore as some kind of rough guide as to what a race is good at.
 
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Skydancer

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I get why they simplified it across the whole clade but this makes more sense lore wise - I would rather fewer gifts but tied directly to racial heritage - a cold resistant Sidioan? A heat resistant Kallard? (lets not even get into the fact you have to heat resistance to select cold resistance) Physiology says no

Having a few innate gifts - things that people KNOW you have by virtue of your dominant race, seems like a good idea.

I guess people can do their best to build their gifts in accordance with their heritage, tree progression permitting
 
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Kaemik

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Second solution would be rewrite the lore.

Nah. If a Mongolian inspired race isn't arguably the best MA and a Roman inspired race aren't arguably the best heavy infantry and you don't see that as a problem worth solving, just delete them. Less confusing to people coming in who we have to explain why they have to delete their Khurite if they want to be MA because Mongolians suck at mounted archery in Mortal's universe.

Having to reroll off Tindremene when I made my first MO1 character because I wanted to play infantry was literally what made me say "Nah, fuck this game" the first time I tried MO1. If my half Roman half Viking couldn't be viable as a footsoldier (Or really at all back then) clearly they had a LOT of work to do on the game. Here we are a decade later...

You don't get people's hopes up they can be a Mongolian, Roman or Arab/Persian and then deny to them all the iconic roles those races should be good at. It's worse than not having them at all from the perspective of a newb who gets excited about their character then immediately blueballed.
 
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lord_yoshi

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How many threads are you going to make regarding race ability? The mounted system isn't even out yet and you're whining about one race not being as good as another. Specifically, you're complaining about Khurites not being the best mounted archers, but archery/riding are str/dex skills, and guess which normal bloodline has the most combined str and dex? Khurites.
 

Kaemik

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How many threads are you going to make regarding race ability? The mounted system isn't even out yet and you're whining about one race not being as good as another. Specifically, you're complaining about Khurites not being the best mounted archers, but archery/riding are str/dex skills, and guess which normal bloodline has the most combined str and dex? Khurites.

Archery is out . The damage is strength based. I'm sure the extra few skillpoints from having a bit more dex will really make Khurites viable MAs.
 
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ThaBadMan

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This is what happens when you dont think before making a game.

Players have told them for years soon decades and still they copy paste the racial system from MO with minor tweaks.

I would much rather have freedom of choice and have all races the same with small racial bonuses backed up by lore.
 

Eldrath

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DeX used to determine weakspot chance. That might be a good idea since it has lost a lot of value with the flattening of the speed curve.

Tindremens heavy infantry seems fine. Probably better with a bit of magic as a paladin type build.
 

Kaemik

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This is what happens when you dont think before making a game.

Players have told them for years soon decades and still they copy paste the racial system from MO with minor tweaks.

I would much rather have freedom of choice and have all races the same with small racial bonuses backed up by lore.

I feel like distinct races are better, but I can't disagree that this would be better than the incredibly limiting system we have now.
 

Eldrath

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I feel like distinct races are better, but I can't disagree that this would be better than the incredibly limiting system we have now.

Well, the reason we have the current system is whiney players like him arguing for races being skins.

It´s funny to me that he is now complaining about it. I guess it´s not normalized enough. When playing a 1,50 veela in leather armor feels exactly the same as playing 2,10 Kallard in full plate we might have peace.

SV should strive to differenciate the clades instead of becoming despereate and choosing to go with lame concepts.
 

Kaemik

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At no point in MOs history have races/clades been done well or even moderately acceptably. As I said I deleted my first character (Tin/Tin/Kal/Kal) within a year or two of the game's release because it was completely non-viable. Now that same character sounds like a fairly usable hybrid if it was still what I wanted to play.

There is certainly room for races to mean something/be distinct and also be fairly balanced. We're just incredibly far from the goalpost of "fairly balanced" even still. If we're just going to keep tweaking attribute caps in system built to be a min-maxers wet dream we will never reach it.
 

Anabolic Man

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Woudn´t Draculina be a good Story writer XD

I wish every Monster and Place would have a nice Story, that the Npc would tell you about, and some hidden lore, that make Players to share their
findings on youtube, to promote the game.
 

Eldrath

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the goalpost of "fairly balanced"

Honestly I think the current system is fairly balanced. There are multiple ways to make various roles work. Some subclades are too specialized and not unique enough. Unless you turn clades into skins there will always be a "meta" and people complaining about it.

Buffing khurites (probably more attribute points in the current system), sidoans and sarduccans would probably not go amiss. Having unique clade gifts for sub clades would be ideal and was honestly how I expected it to work.
 

Kaemik

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Yeah, I was kind of assuming that too. The current system is fairly balanced between clades. Races within a clade (particularly humans) is still really off.
 
D

Dracu

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Woudn´t Draculina be a good Story writer XD

I wish every Monster and Place would have a nice Story, that the Npc would tell you about, and some hidden lore, that make Players to share their
findings on youtube, to promote the game.
thanks i wrote none of those storys at all :D
 

Kaemik

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Buffing khurites (probably more attribute points in the current system), sidoans and sarduccans would probably not go amiss. Having unique clade gifts for sub clades would be ideal and was honestly how I expected it to work.

Sidonians are a really interesting one. We won't know 100% for sure until magic patch, but there are some Sidioan builds I've played a bit with (both pureblood and dominant) that feel like they will be pretty good. Still, the applications of a Sidoain seem to be pretty limited. They're high strength, high int without much size to make them great at melee. But they're slow enough that on foot with low enough con it seems a bit crazy to make them overly spell heavy even with normalized speeds.

I think if they did race bonus, I would make it so they can wield weapons and cast spells at the same time... so long as none of their gear contains metal and their armor is from the light sets. It would really allow them to leverage their high strength and high int to make a kind of slow hybrid that can both parry and cast but with a flavorful gear restriction that keeps it fairly balanced.
 
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Kaemik

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Just a reaction to the current patch. I was not proposing to make humans generally better at everything. Some humans builds already seemed very good. I was proposing we make human races more balanced against EACH OTHER within the clade. Buffing humans doesn't make a Khurite better vs a Kallard for instance.
 

ThaBadMan

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Well, the reason we have the current system is whiney players like him arguing for races being skins.

It´s funny to me that he is now complaining about it. I guess it´s not normalized enough. When playing a 1,50 veela in leather armor feels exactly the same as playing 2,10 Kallard in full plate we might have peace.

SV should strive to differenciate the clades instead of becoming despereate and choosing to go with lame concepts.
Thing is what you aim for and want in your game.

1.You can do it like MO with distanct races and one will be king and rest useless and you will have a mmoRPG with clones in different dresses. YAY why even play an MMORPG if everyone is the same copy because being different means gimping yourself.

2.You can go full sandbox where all races are essentially the same and its up to the player to mold and build his character with only limit being attribute point pool.

3.You can go in between where freedom of race choice is upto player and he develops it as he please with racial bonuses that differentiate the races with lore backing.


If 3 also makes bonuses not gameplay based racial bonuses Id choose that, or I would choose 2nd since we are playing a sandbox MMORPG and not a singleplayer or a themepark MMO.

Limiting races is horrible as seen with MO, 1 race for magic based, 1 for combat and 1 for mounted wheelchair.

Do you seriously want MO2 to turn into MO and fail hard again ?

Btw clades are a bad bandaid fix to a problem that should be solved instead. Oh and to keep us grinding them clades for years. Timers and mindless grind seems to be MO2 in a nutshell sadly...
 

Eldrath

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the Jungle. Meditating on things to come.
All races being the same has little to do with a sandbox. Actually a lot of themeparks have very similar races so that everyone can be an efficient warrior type but roleplay as a hamster/orc/elf/giant slimebug.

I would put this more into the hardcore niche, since differenciated races force you make decisions that are impactful. Forcing decisions that are meaningful is part of most if not all hardcore games. In singleplayer this is done by roguelikes with perma death f.e.

The sandbox comes in when players can use those races to find niches and fullfill specific roles both as part of guild or solo. The hardcore bit means that you can make a wrong decision and that might force you to reroll to a character that is better for the niche you were planning on being in. Or continue developing your character and adjusting it.

Being able to fill a niche is what makes playing in a sandbox fullfilling. The only reason why you say that there were two viable characters is that you only consider two roles: fighter and mage. To be fair at the time there was little else to do, but that changed over the years. More features means more specific roles to fill, which might be better filled with a set up outside the meta.

That being said I think it´s perfectly fine if Thursars are beasts in melee, Sheevras amazing mages, Veelas sprinters and humans around average with a broad spread of skillpoints bonuses. Till yesterday I thought Henrik was still on that track - then they nerfed Alvarins to the point where their speed advantage is close to meaningless. Another niche closed and the game moved closer to a thempark/PvP arena hybrid. I believe that a game made from bought assets with shrunken down crafting, dumbed down characters that´s trying to merge themepark mechanics with a sandbox will fail. Indies don´t make themepark MMOs for a reason.
 

Rulant

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All races being the same has little to do with a sandbox. Actually a lot of themeparks have very similar races so that everyone can be an efficient warrior type but roleplay as a hamster/orc/elf/giant slimebug.

I would put this more into the hardcore niche, since differenciated races force you make decisions that are impactful. Forcing decisions that are meaningful is part of most if not all hardcore games. In singleplayer this is done by roguelikes with perma death f.e.

The sandbox comes in when players can use those races to find niches and fullfill specific roles both as part of guild or solo. The hardcore bit means that you can make a wrong decision and that might force you to reroll to a character that is better for the niche you were planning on being in. Or continue developing your character and adjusting it.

Being able to fill a niche is what makes playing in a sandbox fullfilling. The only reason why you say that there were two viable characters is that you only consider two roles: fighter and mage. To be fair at the time there was little else to do, but that changed over the years. More features means more specific roles to fill, which might be better filled with a set up outside the meta.

That being said I think it´s perfectly fine if Thursars are beasts in melee, Sheevras amazing mages, Veelas sprinters and humans around average with a broad spread of skillpoints bonuses. Till yesterday I thought Henrik was still on that track - then they nerfed Alvarins to the point where their speed advantage is close to meaningless. Another niche closed and the game moved closer to a thempark/PvP arena hybrid. I believe that a game made from bought assets with shrunken down crafting, dumbed down characters that´s trying to merge themepark mechanics with a sandbox will fail. Indies don´t make themepark MMOs for a reason.
Forcing players into 1 or 2 races hurts sandbox aspect and makes it more of a "themepark/pvp arena hybrid" where you have to be an orc as melee class like in wow or you're hurting yourself. Having system as it is when its a game focused heavily around pvp there will be a lot less choice between races, either make the right one or have a build thats less efficient and could get you killed in certain situations, then need to reroll and get frustrated (rightfully so) as a new player. Sandbox should have choices in race selection look at things like roleplay too. If you are looking at it from a realism/sandbox/choice/whatevertf standpoint then every race should be viable at every role with only a few exceptions.

Also it seems contradictory to laugh at people wanting to roleplay different races while doing what is enjoyable in combat while also saying being able to select every character makes it more of a pvp arena game, I don't get it.

Buying assets is nothing new and is normal in a ton of games, it's why theres a market for it.