I keep hearing Henrik saying "penalities for murderers".

[fartbox]

In more then one stream recently Henrik has brought this up but I feel like he's just grifting or something. There is no way that it hasn't been brought up before that murderers can masquerade as blue until they want to attack.

A murderer is blue until he attacks someone and that allows him to always have first strike on unsuspecting victims. First strike is a huge advantage in this game. It also prevents his victims from retaliating after being killed by them because they will be blue again by the time the victim respawns.

Most open world pvp games(nearly all of them) have a criminal system. Where the criminal is flagged to alert everyone around them that they are a criminal. I know that you know this so when you say "consequences" I feel like you're just grifting at this point because you know that I know that you know that the solution to criminal consequence is very simple, in-your-face and abundantly clear - A global criminal flag. At least be honest and say that Mortal will take a griefers paradise approach moving forward/future balance changes/patches as to not confuse any immigrants from EVE or Albion or something.

 

[fartbox]

To further elaborate lets go over a few examples of how the current "criminal flagging system" caters and provides unfair advantages to flagging players. For the purpose of this example I won't use the term "blue" or "red" players because everyone in mortal is blue, I will use the term "flagging player".

Example 1: Player A on foot is attacked by a group of 3 flagging players. However only one player on a mount flags against Player A. The other two players use their blue status to body block player A and prevent him from doing damage unless he turns his flag on.

Example 2: Player A has been murdered recently by player B. Player A is again approached by player B in the wilderness. Player A see's player B approaching but cannot defend himself until he is attacked first despite Player B having already murdered him. Player B waits until he is in range and cannot miss to turn his flag on and gives himself a large lead in the fight.


The current "criminal flagging system" should just be called the criminal protection system because it protects flagging players very well and gives them a huge advantage. Playing as a non-flagging player in this game is a huge disadvantage, almost insurmountable. And it makes no sense. I've never seen a system like this in any game ever. It would be infinitely fairer to not have any flagging system at all like Darkfall and to not penalize non-flagging players.

 

[finegamingconnoisseur]

Simple fix, make the murderer permanent local-grey to the victim until the said victim or a bounty hunter kills them once.

That way, the murderer can't simply suicide or get a friend to kill them to game the system.

 

[Rhodri_Taliesin]

A tale as old as MO-1. The only real penalties would make current player killers rage and bitch and moan, and cry about how without them there is no content and yaddayadda overly self-important narcissism.

Real penalties include prison time, major statloss (not a cap at 15% which was a slap on the wrist), or permadeath for mass killers.

Players who work in tandem to game the flag system should be flagged ad-hoc. Body blockers shouldn't even be a thing and yet for MO-1's life time they very much were.

 

[CherryKush]

Just having red names worked great, everyone knew at a distance to be cautious or avoid altogether these individuals, hindering their ability to always get first strike. Red names also gave the "good guys" people to go out and hunt as well... Why they removed them is beyond me...

 

[fartbox]

d

Just having red names worked great, everyone knew at a distance to be cautious or avoid altogether these individuals, hindering their ability to always get first strike. Red names also gave the "good guys" people to go out and hunt as well... Why they removed them is beyond me...

At a bare minimum a visual indicator is necessary for players with 5+ MC. The current criminal system penalizes and disproportionately effects most specifically new players or small guilds who are too new or too poor to have strongholds. Because they are forced to live in NPC cities they can not jeopardize their faction reputation even to defend themselves properly. The current criminal system could be improved by simply removing it or by adding visual indicators and allowing players to defend themselves properly against groups of players who have a mix of unflagged and flagged characters. Murder rights against previous murderers would be a big improvement. Allowing you take the inniative if you see them.

Again I stress through: Just removing it completely but keeping faction guards (with no standing) would be a massive improvement over the current system.

 

[Gnidex]

Kill rights, as were used in Eve Online, would fix the flagging issue.

It's surprising they didn't figure out Eve did flagging and pvp zones best.

 

[Jatix]

Just having red names worked great, everyone knew at a distance to be cautious or avoid altogether these individuals, hindering their ability to always get first strike. Red names also gave the "good guys" people to go out and hunt as well... Why they removed them is beyond me...

I feel like the reason they removed red names is because the standing system. Where you can be 'red' and have good standing and be protected in town. So people cant just go hit the red in town because they would go red.

The easy solution is orange and red names. Orange is a red that isnt technically crim but is a murderer.

Or just make it so reds even with good standing aren't protected by guards so people can just kill them in town.

Sincerely, a red player.

 

[ElPerro]

Somehow they managed to make a criminal system even worse than MO1. Adding rep was completely pointless, all we needed was regional murder counts and lawless zones.

 

[Gladiator]

Back in the day , when i was a blue player, i constantly went to the sewers. There was constant action.
I remember specifically, because of the criminal system, i would constantly meet people i know for a fact are my enemies, and know for a fact that there was only a matter of time before they attack me, yet there was nothing i could do about it.
Not only that, they were chasing me and others, while their blue friends were sitting at the sewer entrance, blocking the way. You can still do this btw.

The reason why i went full red is simply this : i was sick and tired of people abusing the system to their advantage for one thing, and i was sick and tired of staring my enemies in the face, waiting for them to attack because i could not. It was simply stupid, a waste of my time, and not fun.

Now let me ask you something else.
Do you think that, with the newly "reworked criminal system" and the newly introduced criminal penalties that Henrik is talking about, do you think that they will reset everyone's criime status before pushing such a change? Morally yes, Historically NO. Remember when they straight up, one day, decided to remover all the red priests outside every town, and the life of red players became a living nightmare, having to walk for at least 30 minutes naked every single death? I remember. They did not ASK, they did not even give prior notice, nothing, the gameplay of people became Duller over night.

So im expecting stupid changes again. Because, historically speaking, this is what they do. They make changes with no actual regard as to what the playerbase really wants.

 

[finegamingconnoisseur]

Kill rights, as were used in Eve Online, would fix the flagging issue.

It's surprising they didn't figure out Eve did flagging and pvp zones best.

Kill rights were ingenious as only those who really wanted to bounty hunt the target took the job. They actually paid the victim money for the kill right just like any other traded item.

 

[Gnidex]

Kill rights were ingenious as only those who really wanted to bounty hunt the target took the job. They actually paid the victim money for the kill right just like any other traded item.

Yep. Additionally it made "safe" zones quite unsafe for PKers since you never really knew if one of your victims was in system and could pop you without getting concorded.
Now the real question is if SV has the capability to implement such a system. From what i have seen so far that is a resounding no.

 

[Malmsteen]

How bout you attack first and stop being the victim?

 

[Jatix]

Somehow they managed to make a criminal system even worse than MO1. Adding rep was completely pointless, all we needed was regional murder counts and lawless zones.

Like to be fair while I hate the standing system, it does at least heavily reduce town and gy griefing. Which I think was one of the main killers of MO1. But its really far from a perfect system and bugs me that they havent been trying to improve it. But thats staple MO lmao...

 

[Jackdstripper]

If Henrik really wanted a heavy punishment for killing blues all he would have to do is raise the standing loss to 10 per kill.

Thats would be 5 parcel runs for every murder you commit. People would stop killing blues immediately.

But he doesnt. He wants people to be able to gank, just not too too much. So thats why the system works the way it does.

 

[fartbox]

If Henrik really wanted a heavy punishment for killing blues all he would have to do is raise the standing loss to 10 per kill.

Thats would be 5 parcel runs for every murder you commit. People would stop killing blues immediately.

But he doesnt. He wants people to be able to gank, just not too too much. So thats why the system works the way it does.

Standings are not penalties: Strongholds exists. Alt accounts exist. Thats the point of this thread. Remove the standing system. It only hurts players without either a alt account or a stronghold. The current system just guarantees that a veteran player who is flagging always gets the first hit against players who cannot afford a stronghold or cannot buy a second copy of the game. Not only does it guarantee that but it also exists to exploit and is often exploited by using blue members of your group to prevent other blue players from doing damage.

New player experienced is improved by removing the standing system and keeping the guards. Can keep separate priests for murder counts.

 

[Gnidex]

If Henrik really wanted a heavy punishment for killing blues all he would have to do is raise the standing loss to 10 per kill.

Thats would be 5 parcel runs for every murder you commit. People would stop killing blues immediately.

But he doesnt. He wants people to be able to gank, just not too too much. So thats why the system works the way it does.

It's just another money making scheme to force the sweaty players to buy an alt.
Exactly the same principle behind the one char per account policy.

 

[manure]

Simple fix, make the murderer permanent local-grey to the victim until the said victim or a bounty hunter kills them once.

That way, the murderer can't simply suicide or get a friend to kill them to game the system.

That is the most fair solution !
I would agree with that.

You know... unfortunately, ive seen this before !
It happened on all the old good games... Ultima Online, Darkfall Online, Mortal Online 1... Always the same story : The moment people start complaining too much about PKs and the developers decide to make a small change to please these "criers", the game DIES !
It happened, and I guarantee you : Will happen in MO2.

Im extracting the maximum of fun I can have on this game now because I know what is coming...

They will destroy this game when they start messing around with the murder system.
Mark my words !

 

[ElPerro]

Like to be fair while I hate the standing system, it does at least heavily reduce town and gy griefing. Which I think was one of the main killers of MO1. But its really far from a perfect system and bugs me that they havent been trying to improve it. But thats staple MO lmao...

I guess it reduces suicide pet killing in town, but dedicated griefers are still gonna run parcels to do it. And gy are griefed by red players with strongholds right beside it lol

 

[MolagAmur]

I'm fine with harsher penalties for murdering randoms. The issue is majority of people aren't randoms. You will run into a guy who you literally fought the same day, you both have the intention of fighting again, but if you land the first hit and win the fight, you get the murder count. In this case, the winner is always punished. Its a dogshit system.

Going and killing actual random players in the graveyard, or the few that are actually roaming about Nave, yeah punish me if you want. Then I need to decide if the punishment is worth the kill. We've never had to really do that in MO history, its usually always worth it.

They need to come up with a solution that prevents what I said in the first paragraph from happening. Maybe that can be built into the guild system somehow, or the game knows who you've been fighting recently, I dont know.

I think there is a solution that makes most people satisfied. I know there are some out there who say "get good and learn to fight back". While I may agree with that, I want this game to be as populated as it can be. In MO1 we had very interesting politics, with guilds full of only traders and/or roleplayers whose main focus wasn't the PvP. For me personally, even though I consider PvP in the game to be inevitable, having people who play for different reasons make the community and world feel more alive and interesting. If there is a way we can create a better murder system (there is) that makes it better for them, while not interfering with my desire for meaningful PvP then it should be done. I do know there can easily be loopholes with alt accounts, which is arguably the reason for making a system actually work well so difficult.

Oh I forgot, those trader/rp guilds that I mentioned being in MO1, they all quit because there was zero incentive NOT to murder anything you saw. At one point we have a nearly an even split of red/blue guilds. As time went on, you maybe had 10% blue guilds and everyone else RPK. Which was fine for the PvP crowd, but politics got boring as fuck and the world just felt dead.

And for the record, I've always ran an RPK guild. So I'm not just another dweeb being completely biased toward his own playstyle. I want what I think is best for the game overall.