How SV should position the sub in Early Access

Darthus

Well-known member
Dec 1, 2020
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I'm sure all of us have seen the debate about the subscription for MO2 in general and starting it in Early Access in particular. I've watched Henrik in multiple streams try to defend the decision with a few main points:
  1. The game is not done when it goes into EA, but it will never be done, and they intend the core features to be there.
  2. They will not have a cash shop or F2P annoying elements.
Those are both arguments to the value argument and while not "incorrect", I think they're not the most effective way of addressing players' concerns about the sub. I think KiraTV put it very well in one of his recent videos:


The summary is that SV is making a game nobody else dares to make, it's a risk and a niche, and they may need the sub to make it happen. Look at the comments, people come out of the woodwork to support the sub decision and respect them for it. Contrast this with the response to launch DLC in EA games. He lightweight implies it in a threatening way like, "you don't have any other choice", but I actually think given all of the above, there's a better way to position the sub.

Stop arguing from a value standpoint, because them people immediately compare to FF14, WoW or other sub MMOs and begin comparing and contrasting and thinking of all the other hugely funded buy to play MMOs. MO2 can't win that fight.

I think MO2 should position their sub like Youtube creators position their Patreon. Fully embrace who they are:

"We are a team of 30 passionate individuals who are making the game we've always wanted to play but have never seen anyone make. We are self-funded and realize this game may not appeal to millions of players. We're ok with that because we want to make the game we love and we have faith there are others out there who love this type of game too. If that's you, please consider supporting us by subscribing. In return we promise to work our butts off and continue to churn out content every 2 weeks to keep building this vision, with no pay to win convenience or other hidden costs. We can't do it without you and appreciate your support!"

When you are raising money, whether it's Kickstarter or Patreon or what have you, you don't sell like a product, which speaks to someone's logical side. You sell to someone's values and shared passion and desire to contribute to something bigger. Then people feel happy about supporting, as long as they don't feel duped, rather than feeling like they're entitled to X, Y or Z.

Everything SV does supports this, from their transparent roadmaps, to their clockwork biweekly content drops, to Henrik's totally unnecessary 4 hours Q&As. It shines through that this is a passion project, and I think their business model should align with that mentality.

What do you all think?
 

Kameyo

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Aug 14, 2020
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As long as they keep pounding out the content and hammering on bugs I don't mind paying the sub. A lot of us used to pay our subs on MO1 and got very little for. If SV wants to repeat the mistakes of the past I have better things to spend my money on.
 

Harpazo

New member
Mar 25, 2021
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I think charging a sub for early access will lose them a lot of money. Tons of people will not even try out a game that requires a sub just to check it out. I think a better route would be release MO2 as early access for cheap to let people interested give it a go... the potential profits are much better then.

For example, early this year a game with adventuring & crafting was released as early access on steam for 20 bucks. It sold 5 million copies in the first weekend and is up to 8 million sold currently. If they chose this model for early access I can imagine a lot of people picking it up, maybe even a million... there are many people out there who would love this game!
 

Woody

Well-known member
Apr 4, 2021
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Good points and hopefully SV is able to change their tack with regards to their justification surrounding the subscription fee, not that they should have to mind you. I think anyone with even a shred of business acumen understands why the subscription is absolutely necessary for this game to exist in both a business perspective but more importantly as an entertaining product. Those arguing it are looking at it in the completely wrong frame of mind.

I think charging a sub for early access will lose them a lot of money. Tons of people will not even try out a game that requires a sub just to check it out. I think a better route would be release MO2 as early access for cheap to let people interested give it a go... the potential profits are much better then.

For example, early this year a game with adventuring & crafting was released as early access on steam for 20 bucks. It sold 5 million copies in the first weekend and is up to 8 million sold currently. If they chose this model for early access I can imagine a lot of people picking it up, maybe even a million... there are many people out there who would love this game!

You get one free month with the purchase of the game to "try" it.
 
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Rorry

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May 30, 2020
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I think charging a sub for early access will lose them a lot of money. Tons of people will not even try out a game that requires a sub just to check it out. I think a better route would be release MO2 as early access for cheap to let people interested give it a go... the potential profits are much better then.

For example, early this year a game with adventuring & crafting was released as early access on steam for 20 bucks. It sold 5 million copies in the first weekend and is up to 8 million sold currently. If they chose this model for early access I can imagine a lot of people picking it up, maybe even a million... there are many people out there who would love this game!
The difference is that SV does not want to sell 5 million copies. That would ruin their product (because only 10k or so people can play,) and no one would ever buy/play it again.
They are not in it to make the most money possible, but rather just to have enough people playing and paying so that they can keep on developing and building their game.
 

Farligbonde

Active member
Jan 7, 2021
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I think charging a sub for early access will lose them a lot of money. Tons of people will not even try out a game that requires a sub just to check it out. I think a better route would be release MO2 as early access for cheap to let people interested give it a go... the potential profits are much better then.

For example, early this year a game with adventuring & crafting was released as early access on steam for 20 bucks. It sold 5 million copies in the first weekend and is up to 8 million sold currently. If they chose this model for early access I can imagine a lot of people picking it up, maybe even a million... there are many people out there who would love this game!

You get 1 month of free playtime when you buy the game. Thats enough for people that is interested in the game to try it out and see id they want to continue playing in the long run. Thats a fair deal imo.

Also you cant compare mo2 and valheim. 2 different games that caters to different people.
Even if SV went the route you propsed 1 milion players wouldnt buy the game.
And if they did SV server wouldnt handle it.
 
D

Dracu

Guest
How about... a free trial and be transparent about everything. Why argue about stuff. Just let ppl try the game for free, see if they like it and gud to go :) whats the point of hiding trying the game behind a full game price.

A f2p only instanced haven could be an option... with the hope of haven beeing improved till then, so pvp can be tried.
 

Tzone

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May 16, 2021
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40 bucks b2p with 15usd sub after first month is too much to get interest into the game. 40 bucks is great for the months Ive played during beta.

Not a fan of sub during EA but dont thing its unethical in anyway. People can see the state of the game and choose if it worth it.

Imma pay it because I like the game but I personally dont see the game in its current state being worth 15 usd sub along with 40 b2p. Current state game isnt subbable for most people.
 
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Farligbonde

Active member
Jan 7, 2021
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How about... a free trial and be transparent about everything. Why argue about stuff. Just let ppl try the game for free, see if they like it and gud to go :) whats the point of hiding trying the game behind a full game price.

A f2p only instanced haven could be an option... with the hope of haven beeing improved till then, so pvp can be tried.
This would be the best option
 

Darthus

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Dec 1, 2020
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How about... a free trial and be transparent about everything. Why argue about stuff. Just let ppl try the game for free, see if they like it and gud to go :) whats the point of hiding trying the game behind a full game price.

A f2p only instanced haven could be an option... with the hope of haven beeing improved till then, so pvp can be tried.

I think they leave themselves open to doing that later on. I didn't intend this thread to be about what made business sense for them (more for how to position what they've already said they'll do). Henrik has said they need 8K subs to stay as they are and keep developing at the same rate. They've probably never tested the game with more than say 20K or so people online at the same time (whatever the peak was at the last stress test).

They don't want 1 million people to play their partially finished, core features only game and destroy the servers. They don't want a billion free trial people taking up server resources when they couldn't handle a huge influx of population anyway. They've already said they may even have to cut off sales if the game becomes too popular to make sure they can handle the load (which is great that they've being forward thinking).

My sense is their strategy is, "Let's release a game in EA where at least 8k people think this is cool enough to support it with a subscription (a niche game). If 20k-50k decide to subscribe, that's amazing and we can grow the team. Well use whatever resources we get to continue to build the game in EA (faster if we get more). Once it gets to a much more full featured state, with server stability ironed out etc, then we'll try to start reaching out to a broader group of people and grow from there."

Valheim was individual server based. Devs running a single server indie MMO do not want 1 million people on day one, from either a content perspective or a capacity/support perspective. I believe they're in this for the long haul, and the effort is to go for the people first who this is their dream game, and will support it despite lack of some of the more fleshed out features/niceties because they love what it is. Once they start trying to reach a broader audience, where there's already a good word of mouth and they have a more approachable/full featured final product, then they can explore things like trials, b2p models etc to broaden the reach.

The key is if they can provide enough for those "core" people to stay subscribed and keep funding it, which is again why I think taking an approach of "we're taking a risk and making your dream game cuz it's ours too, please support us" is a better message at this point to keep those people who believe in the vision subscribed even if they fall off the game for a bit to wait for more to be added.
 
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Tekk

Member
Apr 5, 2021
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I think charging a sub for early access will lose them a lot of money. Tons of people will not even try out a game that requires a sub just to check it out. I think a better route would be release MO2 as early access for cheap to let people interested give it a go... the potential profits are much better then.

For example, early this year a game with adventuring & crafting was released as early access on steam for 20 bucks. It sold 5 million copies in the first weekend and is up to 8 million sold currently. If they chose this model for early access I can imagine a lot of people picking it up, maybe even a million... there are many people out there who would love this game!

It sounds like you only care about profits. I would hate to play with a million people on the server.

I don’t mind the release date and subbing. They are giving us the base game. The sooner they release, the sooner we can start statting up.
I’m guessing a lot of players won’t be able to touch much of any end game content for awhile. And for those that wait until all the content is out will be severely behind.
 

finegamingconnoisseur

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May 29, 2020
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If 20k-50k decide to subscribe, that's amazing and we can grow the team.
Reminds me of Richard Garriott when Ultima Online beta was about to open to the public back in the mid-90s. He said that if they can get something like 2k-5k players signing up then that would be considered a success.

Little did he know that when the beta opened some 50k signed up within a matter of days if I recall correctly, which left the team completely flabbergasted.

Should be interesting to see how many will jump onboard MO2 when it goes into persistent release on 26 October.
 

barcode

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Jun 2, 2020
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The difference is that SV does not want to sell 5 million copies. That would ruin their product (because only 10k or so people can play,) and no one would ever buy/play it again.
They are not in it to make the most money possible, but rather just to have enough people playing and paying so that they can keep on developing and building their game.
if sv sold 5 million copies the first weekend henrik would bust a nut right in his pants. all the one world one server bs would go right the fuck out the window and he'd be setting up franchises all over the planet. sv would consider it a success beyond their wildest dreams. henrik would livestream himself going streaking from malmo to copenhagen for a loop around the christiania district and back

on some level we all kinda know that this sort of viral interest in the game will never happen, unfortunately. thats very different from 'SV does not want to sell 5 million copies'

-barcode
 

Darthus

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Dec 1, 2020
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all the one world one server bs would go right the fuck out the window and he'd be setting up franchises all over the planet.

If this were true Henrik, a game director/CEO with around 10-15 years experience, would have made a different game than MO2 or even just gone and worked somewhere else. MO1 was a commercial flop, why would he make it again if what he was going for was primarily profit?

There is nobody in the world that looks at MO2 and says, "This is a safe bet to be the next World of Warcraft". That's why nobody is making it. And it's his and his team's commitment to the vision of the game (as evidenced to making changes to their game which might appease more players but deviate from the design) that gets people like a lot of us excited about it. It takes that level of dedication to actually see something like this through, especially in an industry like MMOs where there is SO much pressure to ape what's already been successful given the costs, time investment and risk involved.
 

barcode

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Jun 2, 2020
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If this were true Henrik, a game director/CEO with around 10-15 years experience, would have made a different game than MO2 or even just gone and worked somewhere else. MO1 was a commercial flop, why would he make it again if what he was going for was primarily profit?
i think you fundamentally misunderstand what it is i was saying. i fully agree that the game design does not lend itself to a wide audience and that sv will never get the '5 million copies sold' on the first weekend. but understand that its not that they dont *want* to sell 5 million copies, they absolutely do,

if sales numbers went off the charts, and 5 million players were looking to get online, do you think henrik would sit there any say 'no, one world only, and our server hosts ~10k players concurrently, so the rest of you will have to just wait'. they'd be instantly pissing away more money than they know what to do with.

-barcode
 

Farligbonde

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Jan 7, 2021
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If this were true Henrik, a game director/CEO with around 10-15 years experience, would have made a different game than MO2 or even just gone and worked somewhere else. MO1 was a commercial flop, why would he make it again if what he was going for was primarily profit?

There is nobody in the world that looks at MO2 and says, "This is a safe bet to be the next World of Warcraft". That's why nobody is making it. And it's his and his team's commitment to the vision of the game (as evidenced to making changes to their game which might appease more players but deviate from the design) that gets people like a lot of us excited about it. It takes that level of dedication to actually see something like this through, especially in an industry like MMOs where there is SO much pressure to ape what's already been successful given the costs, time investment and risk involved.

Because Henrik and the team think they have the right knowledge and tools to make MO how MO was supposed to be from the beginning now.
Which they also believe can be a great success.
And if they got the opportunity to make money from it without sacrifice the main ideas behind MO, they would. And i think everyone would do that if they developed a game.
 
D

Dracu

Guest
Price tag is indeed a bit to hefty in my b
Because Henrik and the team think they have the right knowledge and tools to make MO how MO was supposed to be from the beginning now.
Which they also believe can be a great success.
And if they got the opportunity to make money from it without sacrifice the main ideas behind MO, they would. And i think everyone would do that if they developed a game.
Depends... would i want to make a game for myself or for the players? :D that would heavily influence my decision making especially when „my“ design drives ppl away... :)

Thats something that really baffles me with mo2... like even in its current state. Atleast to me it looks like SV really just trys to remake mo1... A game that kinda „failed to become a hit“ in a loose sort of sense.

But to get back ontopic xD how about SV does what it should have done months ago... hire a guy or company for PR... like wtf...