From a New Player

[Albanjo Dravae]

ConSensual*

Nah man, the law system is too weak and a major reason for the massive drop in player base and also why the game will always be niche. Most gamers are casuals. No casual wants to spend 90% of their time getting killed by neckbeards who play all day and night doing nothing but killing players like a battle royale.

Another part of the problem is i can wear Molarium with a flakestone sword and kill players in steel. Especially if i get the initiative. With almost zero risk to myself i can win loot much bette than what I have and if i die or rack up 20 MC's it doesnt matter. Dont need to enter a blue town anyway when i can keep wearing trash gear and feeding myself gearsets all day killing random travelers.

This is where red tags come in. The red tag grants a higher risk being a murderer because it takes away that initiative.

Basically you wanna dumb down the game, and make it a binary, black and white, criminal and innocent.

I don't wanna tell you to go play something else like other idiotic kids but theres games with consensual" fighting and i really can't imagine why would someone want mortal to have only consensual fighting or extreme punishments for criminal behavior and become a copy from other games.

If you aint willing to lose certain gear don't use it, it's fucking simple and straight forward and applies to any playstyle.

I love the fact that any player with bone gear can kill someone with steel. Is there an actual reason you would want to gear crutch more? What needs to happen for you to consider it cool, no damage from bone weapons to metal? Idk dude...

No casual wanna spend x time playing the game to die, same applies to a murderer who might aswell be casual and might die in conflict like anyone else.

People think of criminal behavior under the premise they allways win, but that not the case.

But you keep blaming that playstyle, demand more punishment, whats left what Is going to be enough for you. Having this punitive timesink vision about the game Is going to lead it to die. Over condition player interaction and you have TESO.

How can you tell the lack of punishment Is the mayor reason people quit, Is that what you are being told in koto discord? Is that actually especulating with nothing to back it up?

I see no fundaments from you that would prove the idea the game needs more punishment, not at all.

 

[Exiledkhallisi]

Basically you wanna dumb down the game, and make it a binary, black and white, criminal and innocent.

I don't wanna tell you to go play something else like other idiotic kids but theres games with consensual" fighting and i really can't imagine why would someone want mortal to have only consensual fighting or extreme punishments for criminal behavior and become a copy from other games.

If you aint willing to lose certain gear don't use it, it's fucking simple and straight forward and applies to any playstyle.

I love the fact that any player with bone gear can kill someone with steel. Is there an actual reason you would want to gear crutch more? What needs to happen for you to consider it cool, no damage from bone weapons to metal? Idk dude...

No casual wanna spend x time playing the game to die, same applies to a murderer who might aswell be casual and might die in conflict like anyone else.

People think of criminal behavior under the premise they allways win, but that not the case.

But you keep blaming that playstyle, demand more punishment, whats left what Is going to be enough for you. Having this punitive timesink vision about the game Is going to lead it to die. Over condition player interaction and you have TESO.

How can you tell the lack of punishment Is the mayor reason people quit, Is that what you are being told in koto discord? Is that actually especulating with nothing to back it up?

I see no fundaments from you that would prove the idea the game needs more punishment, not at all.

I never said that.

I was correctiong ypur spelling of the word consensual. Lol..

tldr
The problem is risk/reward
There is no risk for murderers. None. I know, my alt cant enter blue towns. And it is of no consequence.


Everyone who plays this game plays it because in some aspect, they enjoy pvp. They purposely play a full loot sandbox pvp game.

Being in koto, we fight, its what we do. This isnt about not wanting pvp. Its about balance.

There is almost no reason not to kill everyone. And that is problematic. If you cant see why this makes the game unattractive to casuals (the majority of gamers by far) theres no point in debating it with you. You and I, are established in game and (assuming) hardcore gamers. We (assuming) could care less about losing a set of molarium, arthropod, or reptile carapace t jadeite teir weapon level gear. It doesnt matter when we have 20 sets in the bank and gold to buy even more. Even steel.. i have 5+ steel sets in multiple towns ready to go.

It does matter however to a player who can only play a few hours a day. This is why my brother quit the game, and why 2 of my friends moved on to play different games after the first month. Now, most of my play is as a blue player, my red is only so from multiple battles every day.

This large group of the player base who do nothing but kill everyone they see all day every day are detrimental to the community.

A higher RISK for this sort of behavior would make pvp more critical and less pointless. Say instead of killing everyone...you let the small frys through and go for the juicy targets wearing steel or loot worth having.. or a guy pulling several horses full of loot.... not poor casual joe in molarium in the gravyard... or weekend bob chopping wood for his crafting.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

I never said that.

I was correctiong ypur spelling of the word consensual. Lol..

tldr
The problem is risk/reward
There is no risk for murderers. None. I know, my alt cant enter blue towns. And it is of no consequence.


Everyone who plays this game plays it because in some aspect, they enjoy pvp. They purposely play a full loot sandbox pvp game.

Being in koto, we fight, its what we do. This isnt about not wanting pvp. Its about balance.

There is almost no reason not to kill everyone. And that is problematic. If you cant see why this makes the game unattractive to casuals (the majority of gamers by far) theres no point in debating it with you. You and I, are established in game and (assuming) hardcore gamers. We (assuming) could care less about losing a set of molarium, arthropod, or reptile carapace t jadeite teir weapon level gear. It doesnt matter when we have 20 sets in the bank and gold to buy even more. Even steel.. i have 5+ steel sets in multiple towns ready to go.

It does matter however to a player who can only play a few hours a day. This is why my brother quit the game, and why 2 of my friends moved on to play different games after the first month. Now, most of my play is as a blue player, my red is only so from multiple battles every day.

This large group of the player base who do nothing but kill everyone they see all day every day are detrimental to the community.

A higher RISK for this sort of behavior would make pvp more critical and less pointless. Say instead of killing everyone...you let the small frys through and go for the juicy targets wearing steel or loot worth having.. or a guy pulling several horses full of loot.... not poor casual joe in molarium in the gravyard... or weekend bob chopping wood for his crafting.

Few of the real problematics about this game Is that theres no proper tools for noobs to understand the game. No tools or reasons for having a small crew, the game Is so zerg directed that end up being a problem for the diversity.

Murderers do have risk, risk lowered by numbers. Obviously being a zergling 10v2 will represent 0 risk for the zerg. Maybe one way to balance the game would be to balance zergs, and have a considerable punishment since you like it so much.

In my eyes, all the gamestyles have been bothered with over conditioning mechanics and bullshit changes. Perhaps It's time zergs get the nerf they deserve, that would clearly balance the playfield.

And believe me i can come up with a Lot of ideas on how to make zerglings lives miserable but i don't consider that should be the aproach.

I see people in these forums with a very reiterative and narrow minded speech, "More punishments" "bring back statloss" "theres no risk" but they often fail to see the reasons for these problematics and end up demanding more extreme punitive systems for criminal playstyle.

If Bob wanna chop wood then that dude should understand how when and where to do it, and not do it on a main road because that Bob Will encounter death.
You can't and shouldn't punish criminal behavior because the affected part takes stupid choices, thats part of the learning curve.

The question Is how this Bob can reach to that conclusion without rage quittin in the process, the answer Is another question. How to make a better learning curve.

And thats precisely why ill allways vouch for a law thats player centered instead of relaying on automated idiotic timesink punishments.

 

[Exiledkhallisi]

Few of the real problematics about this game Is that theres no proper tools for noobs to understand the game. No tools or reasons for having a small crew, the game Is so zerg directed that end up being a problem for the diversity.

Murderers do have risk, risk lowered by numbers. Obviously being a zergling 10v2 will represent 0 risk for the zerg. Maybe one way to balance the game would be to balance zergs, and have a considerable punishment since you like it so much.

In my eyes, all the gamestyles have been bothered with over conditioning mechanics and bullshit changes. Perhaps It's time zergs get the nerf they deserve, that would clearly balance the playfield.

And believe me i can come up with a Lot of ideas on how to make zerglings lives miserable but i don't consider that should be the aproach.

I see people in these forums with a very reiterative and narrow minded speech, "More punishments" "bring back statloss" "theres no risk" but they often fail to see the reasons for these problematics and end up demanding more extreme punitive systems for criminal playstyle.

If Bob wanna chop wood then that dude should understand how when and where to do it, and not do it on a main road because that Bob Will encounter death.
You can't and shouldn't punish criminal behavior because the affected part takes stupid choices, thats part of the learning curve.

And thats precisely why ill allways vouch for a law thats player centered instead of relaying on automated idiotic timesink punishments.

Probaly 80% of my pvp is 1v1 or 1vX(small grps of shitters) who think 3v1 or 5v1 isnt the same thing as a zerg in small scale.

This whole "zergling" outcry is just copium. You have no idea what its like to be In KotO where half the server wants to kill you just so they can brag in help chat they killed a KotO. We probably pvp multitudes more than you do.

I agree, that the learning curve is steep and theres almost no form of training and maybe haven should explain things a little better for new players... but my argument isnt just for new players... its for the biggest bulk of gamers...the casuals... any mmo player knows that when the casuals quit, games die.

 

[Kaemik]

Nah man, the law system is too weak and a major reason for the massive drop in player base and also why the game will always be niche. Most gamers are casuals. No casual wants to spend 90% of their time getting killed by neckbeards who play all day and night doing nothing but killing players like a battle royale.

You fix that by creating draws to PvP in which players are pitted against other players doing content where they realize that PvP is likely. Examples of this in other games would be Darkfall's village tax harvesting, EVE's factional warfare, etc.

Currently, there is no way for PvPers to go and find an outlet for their aggression/competitive natures that is healthy for the game.

That's the root of the issue. You market a game as a PvP game, and then instead of creating positive outlets for people to PvP you just punish people for not doing it the way you intend them to. And you design those systems so poorly it even punishes people for wars and other things that SHOULD be considered healthy PvP. That's putting your cart before your horse. That is dumbass level game design. That's a large part of why this game is bleeding players at an astounding rate for a game that's been out for over 4 months.

People who crave PvP are either going to quit the game of power through your consequences to continue doing what they were already doing. Both those outcomes are bad for the game. Both those outcomes could be avoided by proper game design.

Good game design would be creating ways for people to engage in healthy PvP consequence-free and even creating systems to ENCOURAGE that. THEN you can create punishments for PvPing in ways you don't want to encourage.

 

[Exiledkhallisi]

You fix that by creating draws to PvP in which players are pitted against other players doing content where they realize that PvP is likely. Examples of this in other games would be Darkfall's village tax harvesting, EVE's factional warfare, etc.

Currently, there is no way for PvPers to go and find an outlet for their aggression/competitive natures that is healthy for the game.

That's the root of the issue. You market a game as a PvP game, and then instead of creating positive outlets for people to PvP you just punish people for not doing it the way you intend them to. And you design those systems so poorly it even punishes people for wars and other things that SHOULD be considered healthy PvP. That's putting your cart before your horse. That is dumbass level game design. That's a large part of why this game is bleeding players at an astounding rate for a game that's been out for over 4 months.

People who crave PvP are either going to quit the game of power through your consequences to continue doing what they were already doing. Both those outcomes are bad for the game. Both those outcomes could be avoided by proper game design.

Good game design would be creating ways for people to engage in healthy PvP consequence-free and even creating systems to ENCOURAGE that. THEN you can create punishments for PvPing in ways you don't want to encourage.

This is probably the best reply to this issue ive read.

I agree 100%. And its due to this design that creates toxic pointless pvp which leads to casual players just saying f it and quitting. Tc/seige faction, and arena should have been priorities on the forefront.

However, i will that this genre of game, open world sandbox pvp does tend to attract a particular type of degenerate whos entire gameplay loop revolve around griefing. These players will play this way regardless of new mechanics. These are the players whos style of play should be punished. Not the rest of the playerbase.

 

[Kaemik]

I think a portion of the player base of this game is going to continue hunting newbies for as long as they play the game. But I think healthy outlets for PvP would see about 90% of the current red population either turn blue or at least turn to more healthy/engaging forms of banditry if they were available.

This game's population is dying of boredom.

Personally one of the most engaging things this game could offer me is a trade system that rewards me heavily for doing it but challenges me by encouraging people to try to rob me if I do it. High-risk trading/smuggling is the best content a multiplayer game can offer me aside from truly great crafting like Wurm. We see a LITTLE of that with book trading but a few simple systems could take it so much further.

 

[Emdash]

Everyone who plays this game plays it because in some aspect, they enjoy pvp.

That's not true, per se, it's just action that drives the world. That was SV's big mistake. They know not everyone enjoys pvp, but they thought they could trim it to make it more 'friendly,' but they took away a lot. There's no consequence to being a murderer if you have a keep or close. That's WAI, again, but IMO bad design. Big missteps.

 

[Kaquenqos]

It seems to me that most people are in agreement that the biggest flaw with the game currently are the mechanics surrounding PKing, MC, rep etc. I definitely agree. I think a rework of the entire system with the aim of creating meaning to being lawful vs unlawful, in tandem with a total MC flag rework, if possible, would help a lot. Being truly lawful and not RPKing needs to have actual benefits/meaning/mechanics and encourage lawful players to actually form a bulwark against RPKers as an actual in-game mechanic. There should be ample opportunity for PvP for lawful players without having to worry about MC & deliveries. Currently, because of the bunk MC flagging system, there really is not. On the other hand, I think there should be more grey priests and even some grey brokers. You should be allowed to be a criminal and not punished with tedium, your punishment should be that you are a huge target and PvP comes to you. Currently, tedium aside, the game functions at your every whim if you are a criminal; with the huge world & half-hearted mechanics surrounding murder, the ball is always in your court. IRL, eventually the Pinkertons will get you. Currently this is not at all the case, in spite of the bounty system... This is probably because everybody is innately unlawful in MO2, and there is no meaningful distinction between people who don't murder and people who murder frequently but use the games' tedious MC mechanics to wait/work it out.

There should be a dynamic that lawful and unlawful players are natural enemies(like if bandits raided your village in pre-modern times, or outlaws in the wild-west etc.) but now they are really just slightly different flavors of exactly the same playstyle and everything is just a free for all. There is no actual meaning to being lawful in this game. Being lawful IRL does not mean 'I murder people periodically, but I take a break for a bit, and I delivery pizzas for the locals, so, y'know... it all evens out, really...'. That's what it means in MO2. That is a god-awful mechanic. Likewise, the consequences being put on criminals are not meaningful, nor are they fun. Again, the consequences should be that people are opposing you every step of the way, and you have to act strategically to be successful. Now the ball is 100% in the court of criminals with the only consequence being 'no blue towns, and you gotta res-walk further'. If you want to participate you have to work within the tedium... It's just a bad mechanical framework for PvP.

The whole game revolves around the consequence of it becoming more tedious to play if you murder people. It does nothing to prevent murder, because the potential benefit & thrill of getting free items/gear & pvping at will outweighs the tedium, and so the game is just made more tedious for the majority of the player-base (very few people choosing not to RPK in any way). It's a lose-lose situation. Not the type of thing people think of when they want 'consequences', and realistic morality/society, attached to actions in a video game.

Basically, what I'm saying is, there is tangible, fun gameplay benefits to being unlawful in this game, there are none to being lawful. In reality, there really isn't even any mechanical allowance by the game for being lawful. Yes, thanks to Nave-Pizza-Delivery, you can be murdered and then find your murderer hanging out in town with you right after. This is a huge problem and flaw with the 'realism' of the game. There is no such thing as an actual 'lawful' play-style in MO2, because the MC/flag system fails miserably at allowing equal initiative, arbitrating just killings, or delineating murderers from non-murderers. The only way to be 'lawful' in this game is if you deliberately go out of your way to RP being lawful to your personal detriment, complete loss of initiative in PvP, and minimization of your chance to take part in PvP in the first place. That's the fundamental problem at the root of PvP, niche status, and player-retention in this game.

With the current system, it's a game with PvP as a core feature that discourages PvP with tedium and offers no meaningful delineation via in-game mechanics between RPKers and non-RPKers. It's convoluted & confusing for new players, and seemingly deliberately puts them in the position to lose out until they are strong enough skill/resource-wise to abuse the morally-grey dystopia of the broken MC system for themselves. It offers no position for casual-players to occupy except that of a source of prey for hardcore players. Are a group of players camping the direction you need to go? Well, guess what... Too bad! You're done playing for the night! You have no recourse. Guess what else? You get to watch them bank your stuff in town, because they're a diligent pizzaman that only plays, exclusively to grief people, every couple of days.

Listen, don't get me wrong, the danger and potentiality for murder/loot-loss are essential features of the game. The problem is all of the mechanics surrounding it are completely FUBAR and need to be reworked from the ground-up. Let criminals exist and continue to murder as they choose, but give lawful players something, anything, to work with. At least allow them to exist. MO2's version of lawful is a serial-murderer that moonlights as a pizza delivery man. Does anyone wonder why this is unappealing to many people who otherwise like the concept of the game?

EDIT:
Due to past experience I want to explicitly say, I am not advocating for 'RvR' mechanics. I'm advocating a rework of MC/rep/flag mechanics & implementation of mechanics that provide benefits to being a lawful player(aka a player who does not RPK), so that the default status of every single player isn't just 'a different shade of criminal' as it is now. Equally, I'm arguing that there should be ample opportunity for said players to PvP without RPKing-- ie. arenas, wardecs, killing RPKers etc. Ie. Don't punish people that want to be criminals, and don't punish people who want to be lawful with no initiative or content, give people the mechanical framework to actually co-exist in opposition. The only 'law' in the game should not be typing /guard, because that's just not fun for anyone. There should be a meaningful delineation between lawful and unlawful killings that the current system fails completely to provide.

 

[Oghmir]

Respect

 

[Slarti Bartfast]

Really great thread. Thanks for post OP.

Been great to hear some of the folks that do kill constantly give good logical reasons for it rather than the standard wanna-be-IRL-alpha epeen strokers that just post git gud comments as if everyone should know every trick in the book.

As a relative newb (no MO1 experience, MMORPG experience with full pvp but not full loot), really opened my eyes to why sometimes folks are just straight hostile, aside from the git gud crowd. Instantly makes it more bearable now when people just slaughter me without engaging in any sort of VOIP at all, which before, much like OP, bothered me to a degree. Not enough to leave, but I was beginning to believe the git gud crowd was the majority. Seems they are not. The flagging system and risk vs. reward just needs some work. Thanks for all for the great back and forth discussion that has made this newb understand a little more clearly.

That said, thank you to those that do put the seriousness of getting loot/self-preservation aside sometimes with their killing by throwing in a fun, murderous scream/saying before eliminating me. As a (rare from what I can tell) breed of RP-PVPer, I live for that stuff. Hell... kill me all day as long as you make it interesting. Story for fun... I went out of Fabernum with my buddy on our first real adventure in MO2. Running... running... over a hill. A well armored horseman speeds by us in the opposite direction. We freeze for a moment wondering if we're safe, but the horseman keeps speeding away. About 20 seconds later, I hear my very first wolf tame yelping in pain. My buddy and I turn around and see the horseman from earlier hacking at my pet. My buddy, much more aware than I, draws his sword and begins to attack as I VOIP "Why are you killing my little wolf?!" in a sillyish manner. I pull my sword right as he offs my buddy (the wolf long since died) and he turns and looks at me. I know I stand no chance so I resheathe and book it. He chases me and cuts me off, standing in front of me. "Why did you kill my wolf? Why... my friend?!" I wail.

"Because I'm a murderer!" the killer screams.

"I.. I... can't believe they're dead..." I trail off.

"And now... I'm going to kill you! Ahahahahhahahaha!" he VOIPS.

"Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!" I VOIP back and start running. Just to show off for the newb, he does a jump/spin then slice (which I now understand as a mechanic... at the time he looked like a god to me), and then I'm in mercy mode.

"Any last words?" He says, sword pulled back in stab position.

"Up yours," I tell him as he drives his blade through my head.

Now that's class. Let's get more of that... kindly please. Of course, if you just murder me now instead of something fun like the above... then I understand a little better why because of this thread.

Yes... Kaquenqos seems to have the right of it! Let's get a flagging system with a stronger lawful/unlawful identity and something different than just tedium and deliveries for murderers. Give them better criminal towns. Almost like a very loose lawful vs. unlawful factions thing. Though perhaps that was not Kaq's original meaning... that's where it sent me to in idea land.

-

Also gotta add this. I keep seeing people say this is marketed as a PVP game (once in this thread and a few times in other threads). Am I missing the marketing? Here's what I find on the website:

Mortal Online 2 is a first – person fantasy MMORPG like no other.

A persistent sandbox world filled with thousands of players, together they fill the realm of Nave with content and unique stories.

Mortal Online 2 is first and foremost a player – driven game. It is the players who gather resources, craft goods, set up trade routes, build houses, fortifications, and villages – wage wars, or keep the peace.

The world of Mortal Online 2 is constantly changing, and it is a game that will change how you look at MMOs.

Might just be me, but I don't interpret that as a strictly PVP-marketed game. Seems like immersion (not in above, but tagline is "Most Immersive Sandbox MMORPG"... pvp is part of this) and player-driven (PVP is a part of this) are the main descriptors. Are they advertising it wrong? My thoughts are that it might be people seeing full-PVP and full-loot and then assuming that means PVP is the end-all-be-all of the game. But just like I found out in this thread that previously seemingly senseless slaughter actually had good reasons besides epeen, perhaps I'm missing something in my newbness.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

Probaly 80% of my pvp is 1v1 or 1vX(small grps of shitters) who think 3v1 or 5v1 isnt the same thing as a zerg in small scale.

This whole "zergling" outcry is just copium. You have no idea what its like to be In KotO where half the server wants to kill you just so they can brag in help chat they killed a KotO. We probably pvp multitudes more than you do.

I agree, that the learning curve is steep and theres almost no form of training and maybe haven should explain things a little better for new players... but my argument isnt just for new players... its for the biggest bulk of gamers...the casuals... any mmo player knows that when the casuals quit, games die.

Playing the victim card being in koto is pitiful as fuck, you chose your poison so don't come and say shit like "You don't know how is it to be in koto" pretending koto aint a zerg or that the game aint zerg centered.
You probably do PVP multitudes of people because it's a zerg duh, good job Sherlock.

Idk u been blaming most (if not all) problems of the game to criminal playstyle but you Will never aknowledge the zerg problematic and thats because you have your head so deep in koto's ass that you are unable to think on your own or at least try to be objective.

Casuals die cuz they get bored of killing brain dead AI, the lack of content design and broken promises from Henrik, and of course a law system designed by a stoopid monkey lmao.

 

[Emdash]

It seems to me that most people are in agreement that the biggest flaw with the game currently are the mechanics surrounding PKing, MC, rep etc. I definitely agree. I think a rework of the entire system with the aim of creating meaning to being lawful vs unlawful, in tandem with a total MC flag rework, if possible, would help a lot. Being truly lawful and not RPKing needs to have actual benefits/meaning/mechanics and encourage lawful players to actually form a bulwark against RPKers as an actual in-game mechanic. There should be ample opportunity for PvP for lawful players without having to worry about MC & deliveries. Currently, because of the bunk MC flagging system, there really is not. On the other hand, I think there should be more grey priests and even some grey brokers. You should be allowed to be a criminal and not punished with tedium, your punishment should be that you are a huge target and PvP comes to you. Currently, tedium aside, the game functions at your every whim if you are a criminal; with the huge world & half-hearted mechanics surrounding murder, the ball is always in your court. IRL, eventually the Pinkertons will get you. Currently this is not at all the case, in spite of the bounty system... This is probably because everybody is innately unlawful in MO2, and there is no meaningful distinction between people who don't murder and people who murder frequently but use the games' tedious MC mechanics to wait/work it out.

There should be a dynamic that lawful and unlawful players are natural enemies(like if bandits raided your village in pre-modern times, or outlaws in the wild-west etc.) but now they are really just slightly different flavors of exactly the same playstyle and everything is just a free for all. There is no actual meaning to being lawful in this game. Being lawful IRL does not mean 'I murder people periodically, but I take a break for a bit, and I delivery pizzas for the locals, so, y'know... it all evens out, really...'. That's what it means in MO2. That is a god-awful mechanic. Likewise, the consequences being put on criminals are not meaningful, nor are they fun. Again, the consequences should be that people are opposing you every step of the way, and you have to act strategically to be successful. Now the ball is 100% in the court of criminals with the only consequence being 'no blue towns, and you gotta res-walk further'. If you want to participate you have to work within the tedium... It's just a bad mechanical framework for PvP.

The whole game revolves around the consequence of it becoming more tedious to play if you murder people. It does nothing to prevent murder, because the potential benefit & thrill of getting free items/gear & pvping at will outweighs the tedium, and so the game is just made more tedious for the majority of the player-base (very few people choosing not to RPK in any way). It's a lose-lose situation. Not the type of thing people think of when they want 'consequences', and realistic morality/society, attached to actions in a video game.

Basically, what I'm saying is, there is tangible, fun gameplay benefits to being unlawful in this game, there are none to being lawful. In reality, there really isn't even any mechanical allowance by the game for being lawful. Yes, thanks to Nave-Pizza-Delivery, you can be murdered and then find your murderer hanging out in town with you right after. This is a huge problem and flaw with the 'realism' of the game. There is no such thing as an actual 'lawful' play-style in MO2, because the MC/flag system fails miserably at allowing equal initiative, arbitrating just killings, or delineating murderers from non-murderers. The only way to be 'lawful' in this game is if you deliberately go out of your way to RP being lawful to your personal detriment, complete loss of initiative in PvP, and minimization of your chance to take part in PvP in the first place. That's the fundamental problem at the root of PvP, niche status, and player-retention in this game.

With the current system, it's a game with PvP as a core feature that discourages PvP with tedium and offers no meaningful delineation via in-game mechanics between RPKers and non-RPKers. It's convoluted & confusing for new players, and seemingly deliberately puts them in the position to lose out until they are strong enough skill/resource-wise to abuse the morally-grey dystopia of the broken MC system for themselves. It offers no position for casual-players to occupy except that of a source of prey for hardcore players. Are a group of players camping the direction you need to go? Well, guess what... Too bad! You're done playing for the night! You have no recourse. Guess what else? You get to watch them bank your stuff in town, because they're a diligent pizzaman that only plays, exclusively to grief people, every couple of days.

Listen, don't get me wrong, the danger and potentiality for murder/loot-loss are essential features of the game. The problem is all of the mechanics surrounding it are completely FUBAR and need to be reworked from the ground-up. Let criminals exist and continue to murder as they choose, but give lawful players something, anything, to work with. At least allow them to exist. MO2's version of lawful is a serial-murderer that moonlights as a pizza delivery man. Does anyone wonder why this is unappealing to many people who otherwise like the concept of the game?

EDIT:
Due to past experience I want to explicitly say, I am not advocating for 'RvR' mechanics. I'm advocating a rework of MC/rep/flag mechanics & implementation of mechanics that provide benefits to being a lawful player(aka a player who does not RPK), so that the default status of every single player isn't just 'a different shade of criminal' as it is now. Equally, I'm arguing that there should be ample opportunity for said players to PvP without RPKing-- ie. arenas, wardecs, killing RPKers etc. Ie. Don't punish people that want to be criminals, and don't punish people who want to be lawful with no initiative or content, give people the mechanical framework to actually co-exist in opposition. The only 'law' in the game should not be typing /guard, because that's just not fun for anyone. There should be a meaningful delineation between lawful and unlawful killings that the current system fails completely to provide.

yea I agree @ rewarding people who police. They tried w/ Bounty hehhh.

MO w/o danger is lol. There was grief they should have removed, but they got too zealous. Spend 3 days in haven, quit after first PK... leaves steam review, sv listens! I think it was downright evil the way they had stuff set up before w/ grinders etc. That timer is too much. Get ganked ALL THE TIME. No combat skills aiye. How do we rationalize the difference between MO1 and MO2 and the jump... what was gained, what was lost, let's ruminate!

Not late MO, but like... med MO like I said. Like ramping up to TC MO. 10 different OP things in the game but since they are all OP it somehow balances out.

I'm gonna talk about BLACK DESERT for a sec. Don't play black desert unless you want to make some widgets for luls. Anyway, BDO is a game about buffing yourself basically then farming the same 'rotation' of mobs for about an hour. Counting your silver per hour, etc. Someone proposed it in a way that made it seem like they felt it was THEIR RIGHT to hold that rotation once they buffed up (spent resources...) but wait... that's trash. That's the sort of entitlement that ruins games. There are DEF toxic people in games like this, but it's true that the entitlement is also an issue. You aren't entitled to be protected by the game. It's a sandbox. Guards are def wonky still... been wonky, but the main 'protection' came from systems. Maybe MO1 system was a bit weak, but it was still better than this.

I still think in the end the reward of getting griefer dudes out of your GY/town should be given by the players of the town... thank yous, etc. That's the idea of sandbox, push the least amount you can outside of what is a direct reaction to created content. Clearing out your town of undesirables is like step 1 to making a comfy spot. You gotta let people do their thing. And in the wild PKing is content. GET OVER IT. Dying to mobs, dying to people, o well.

It'd be NICE to have it where people seeing you in the wild didn't kill you just cuz, like if there was another option... lol. Make rep sys so if you see someone out in the wild who has been out there x amount of time and go interact w/ them you get a rep point.

I'm not much for moral relativity, but there is a great black and white in MO. DEAD... NOT DEAD. haha. People can talk all they want about what caused what, but those are the two choices, you either get looted or not. The risk of PK should always be upsetting people more than going RED. The only thing they need to find a way to make work is all the people who are cupped around each other and killing small guilds, etc. Not in total, but just make it so that isn't the general principle of how people avoid repercussions.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

Really great thread. Thanks for post OP.

Been great to hear some of the folks that do kill constantly give good logical reasons for it rather than the standard wanna-be-IRL-alpha epeen strokers that just post git gud comments as if everyone should know every trick in the book.

As a relative newb (no MO1 experience, MMORPG experience with full pvp but not full loot), really opened my eyes to why sometimes folks are just straight hostile, aside from the git gud crowd. Instantly makes it more bearable now when people just slaughter me without engaging in any sort of VOIP at all, which before, much like OP, bothered me to a degree. Not enough to leave, but I was beginning to believe the git gud crowd was the majority. Seems they are not. The flagging system and risk vs. reward just needs some work. Thanks for all for the great back and forth discussion that has made this newb understand a little more clearly.

That said, thank you to those that do put the seriousness of getting loot/self-preservation aside sometimes with their killing by throwing in a fun, murderous scream/saying before eliminating me. As a (rare from what I can tell) breed of RP-PVPer, I live for that stuff. Hell... kill me all day as long as you make it interesting. Story for fun... I went out of Fabernum with my buddy on our first real adventure in MO2. Running... running... over a hill. A well armored horseman speeds by us in the opposite direction. We freeze for a moment wondering if we're safe, but the horseman keeps speeding away. About 20 seconds later, I hear my very first wolf tame yelping in pain. My buddy and I turn around and see the horseman from earlier hacking at my pet. My buddy, much more aware than I, draws his sword and begins to attack as I VOIP "Why are you killing my little wolf?!" in a sillyish manner. I pull my sword right as he offs my buddy (the wolf long since died) and he turns and looks at me. I know I stand no chance so I resheathe and book it. He chases me and cuts me off, standing in front of me. "Why did you kill my wolf? Why... my friend?!" I wail.

"Because I'm a murderer!" the killer screams.

"I.. I... can't believe they're dead..." I trail off.

"And now... I'm going to kill you! Ahahahahhahahaha!" he VOIPS.

"Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!" I VOIP back and start running. Just to show off for the newb, he does a jump/spin then slice (which I now understand as a mechanic... at the time he looked like a god to me), and then I'm in mercy mode.

"Any last words?" He says, sword pulled back in stab position.

"Up yours," I tell him as he drives his blade through my head.

Now that's class. Let's get more of that... kindly please. Of course, if you just murder me now instead of something fun like the above... then I understand a little better why because of this thread.

Yes... Kaquenqos seems to have the right of it! Let's get a flagging system with a stronger lawful/unlawful identity and something different than just tedium and deliveries for murderers. Give them better criminal towns. Almost like a very loose lawful vs. unlawful factions thing. Though perhaps that was not Kaq's original meaning... that's where it sent me to in idea land.

-

Also gotta add this. I keep seeing people say this is marketed as a PVP game (once in this thread and a few times in other threads). Am I missing the marketing? Here's what I find on the website:

Mortal Online 2 is a first – person fantasy MMORPG like no other.

A persistent sandbox world filled with thousands of players, together they fill the realm of Nave with content and unique stories.

Mortal Online 2 is first and foremost a player – driven game. It is the players who gather resources, craft goods, set up trade routes, build houses, fortifications, and villages – wage wars, or keep the peace.

The world of Mortal Online 2 is constantly changing, and it is a game that will change how you look at MMOs.

Might just be me, but I don't interpret that as a strictly PVP-marketed game. Seems like immersion (not in above, but tagline is "Most Immersive Sandbox MMORPG"... pvp is part of this) and player-driven (PVP is a part of this) are the main descriptors. Are they advertising it wrong? My thoughts are that it might be people seeing full-PVP and full-loot and then assuming that means PVP is the end-all-be-all of the game. But just like I found out in this thread that previously seemingly senseless slaughter actually had good reasons besides epeen, perhaps I'm missing something in my newbness.

Of course nobody pretends a noob to know all the tricks in the book. A noob finds himself trying to find information in the forums, discord and ingame and it won't find it anywhere.
Theres no Game input, information or a real tutorial for newbies to understand the mechanics and social structures of the game at all. The learning curve for newbies is so fucking confusing and thats the reason why a lot of people quits, because they think they are entitled to safety and instead of understanding what's not being said they obviously get dissappointed with a game that aint the mainstream consensual fight only.

Mortal is a pvp game with the promise of "maybe one day good pve" but PVP turns out to be the strongest content rn. Henrique clearly thinks the AI is almost having it's own conciousness but the reality is that all AI in this game is absolutly terrible and it's not getting improved over time as it should.

The game doesn't need better or flamboyant punishments for player behavior, it needs to generate a better environment for players and you aint doing that by punishing people for playing.

 

[Emdash]

Of course nobody pretends a noob to know all the tricks in the book. A noob finds himself trying to find information in the forums, discord and ingame and it won't find it anywhere.
Theres no Game input, information or a real tutorial for newbies to understand the mechanics and social structures of the game at all. The learning curve for newbies is so fucking confusing and thats the reason why a lot of people quits, because they think they are entitled to safety and instead of understanding what's not being said they obviously get dissappointed with a game that aint the mainstream consensual fight only.

Mortal is a pvp game with the promise of "maybe one day good pve" but PVP turns out to be the strongest content rn. Henrique clearly thinks the AI is almost having it's own conciousness but the reality is that all AI in this game is absolutly terrible and it's not getting improved over time as it should.

The game doesn't need better or flamboyant punishments for player behavior, it needs to generate a better environment for players and you aint doing that by punishing people for playing.

shit I put nubs on. Not even to groom them just so they could play the game like a normal player. Go where you go, just check this out. I sold people who I met as nubs weps at about matcost, etc. I loved to see people out there enjoying the game.

The whole purpose of a sandbox is to 'see what happens.' I don't think MO1 was super dystopian. There were pkers, but it wasn't that bad, ever. I don't remember ever dying a lot. The idea was just to fix A LITTLE of the absolute griefy garbage ( like grief by game design) that MO1 had and get the game running better. That's gfg.

People feeling offended and that PKers need to be punished is GOOD. However, they should be doing it hehhhh. If that balance is off, then the "ARPK" is eternally salty like it was in MO1, but the game WORKS. I can't believe anyone who actually lived MO, and nah I don't consider myself a VET, but I was there when I played. You know what I mean? But I don't believe anyone who did that would say "I wish MO1 had less pvp, looking back." NOBODY.

Like I said it's a mystery to me and big ups to the people that actually came in on MO2; the dudes who put in work to get good and who probably will stay even if they make the combat more dynamic... I salute you, but if I had walked into MO2 and not MO1 when I told dood I wanted to play a game where I could just do anything and whatever happened happened... I would have dropped this shit like it's hot. I would never pay a sub for this shit loool.

It's like, they made it so that you gotta be boss checked to sub now. Or have a keep, high investment, sucks to be that, but it is what it is. Big ups to them, too. Anyway, it wasn't death by 1000 cuts per se. It was sword slashes. Patch after patch, we are just pretty durable. I know your secret, you are an optimist about MO, that's why you try to act so bitter. I mean, we all want MO to be right. But they just finally did it. It's like wat... wat... if you get hit with a 4 or 5 hit wat combo, it's just like ok time to uninstall my heart can't take this shit.

 

[Kaquenqos]

MO w/o danger is lol. There was grief they should have removed, but they got too zealous. Spend 3 days in haven, quit after first PK... leaves steam review, sv listens! I think it was downright evil the way they had stuff set up before w/ grinders etc. That timer is too much. Get ganked ALL THE TIME. No combat skills aiye. How do we rationalize the difference between MO1 and MO2 and the jump... what was gained, what was lost, let's ruminate!

So, just to start, we agree that MO needs danger. I am not saying MO2 should have no RPK, I literally directly say MO2 needs to retain its sense of danger. Of course that's important.

What I am saying is that the system that facilitates RPK, ie. local-grey/grey/MC/rep-grind/blue-blocking is broken and makes the experience worse for everyone involved. But worse than that, it doesn't offer any meaningful alternative to RPKing for PvP content. There is literally nothing. So the result is new players that want to play 'lawful' 'ARPK' just end up having no initiative in PvP because they have to worry about the terrible convoluted RPK/pvp mechanics, if they even understand them, arbitrary as they are. Not only are they weaker on paper and less skilled in terms of actual experience, but they literally are put in a position where they will almost always begin any engagement at the extreme strategic disadvantage of taking the first blow.

You might say, 'well the playerbase should be the law'... But it's NOT. That's not how the game is designed. We do have mechanics for crime and punishment, but they are broken to the point that all they do is take away from the PvP experience and promote grief/ganking over all else.

I'm gonna talk about BLACK DESERT for a sec. Don't play black desert unless you want to make some widgets for luls. Anyway, BDO is a game about buffing yourself basically then farming the same 'rotation' of mobs for about an hour. Counting your silver per hour, etc. Someone proposed it in a way that made it seem like they felt it was THEIR RIGHT to hold that rotation once they buffed up (spent resources...) but wait... that's trash. That's the sort of entitlement that ruins games. There are DEF toxic people in games like this, but it's true that the entitlement is also an issue. You aren't entitled to be protected by the game. It's a sandbox. Guards are def wonky still... been wonky, but the main 'protection' came from systems. Maybe MO1 system was a bit weak, but it was still better than this.

BDO is a trash game that is basically everything I hate about where the MMORPG genre has been going in the last 15 or so years.

Now, with that aside, you say 'you're not entitled to protection'. Of course not. My point has never been about making the game 'safe'. My point has been about giving everyone equal incentive and opportunity to PvP. My point is that, with this current broken RPK system, the only PvP content in the game revolves around ganking. ARPK is a joke. You have mechanics that promote RPK, but the playerbase is just supposed to get together and start a grassroots 'ARPK' system, even though there are no mechanics that would make this worthwhile? It's extremely wishful thinking at best, and obviously not a sustainable solution, because that's not how game design works. There are mechanics, but none of them are designed to promote the kind of criminal/lawful back and forth PvP, or really any type of PvP other than RPKing. The only PvP is going out and RPK ganking. This favours grief, and ultimately the neckbeard who can spend countless hours running deliveries to maximize their grief with no drawbacks.

I still think in the end the reward of getting griefer dudes out of your GY/town should be given by the players of the town... thank yous, etc. That's the idea of sandbox, push the least amount you can outside of what is a direct reaction to created content. Clearing out your town of undesirables is like step 1 to making a comfy spot. You gotta let people do their thing. And in the wild PKing is content. GET OVER IT. Dying to mobs, dying to people, o well.

You say, 'oh well the players will create the content', but that's a huge cop out. The point is that the actual mechanics are designed to direct the content, and they are designed, at the moment, in such a way that encourages people to either grief or get no PvP action. That's a bad system, man, and it needs to be addressed badly. There are huge incentives to grief: 1) you get to PvP which is unlikely to happen otherwise 2) you can loot people 3) it's exciting/thrilling/fun... Yet the mechanics we get to counteract it just serve as a timer & delivery quest grind...? Why isn't there actual mechanics to incentivize retaliation? Why is bounty hunting such a joke, and why did they not create something more catch-all? The Rep/MC/flag dynamic are bad mechanics because they don't create content, they just try to contain pvp without providing alternative venues.


The idea of a sandbox game is that the player drives the content within the mechanical framework of the game. There are mechanical systems that allow them to do so. Without these, there would be no sandbox. There is currently a mechanical framework that promotes griefing and offers no alternative playstyle for PvP. So, yeah, the game does have mechanics surrounding PvP already. The game already has systems in place that direct players' actions as far as PvP goes. They're not absent, they're just bad. You have a broken flagging system that is at best unfair and at worst easily exploitable, and a flat PvE reputation grind...

I'm not much for moral relativity, but there is a great black and white in MO. DEAD... NOT DEAD. haha. People can talk all they want about what caused what, but those are the two choices, you either get looted or not. The risk of PK should always be upsetting people more than going RED. The only thing they need to find a way to make work is all the people who are cupped around each other and killing small guilds, etc. Not in total, but just make it so that isn't the general principle of how people avoid repercussions.

See, that's the problem. The only morality that the game allows for, mechanically, is 'dead vs not dead'. So of course you can't be mad at players who see things this way and abuse and exploit the mechanics as much as possible to grief others, rep bomb, blue block, horse kill etc. etc.... You can't blame the players for abusing a bad system, and you can't be surprised when it's mostly just shitters that stick around after a while, but you can call on the devs to overhaul a system that has a perfidious influence on gameplay and will ultimately kill the game. Expecting some grassroots movement of players to maintain law and order in a game that has broken mechanics that practically disallows for either is insanity.

Even if everyone was just grey out in the world you would at least know where you stand. This rep-grind blue outlaw nonsense ruins the game. You're in a position where someone approaches you and everything is fine until they attack, and then suddenly, great, you can defend yourself, but, guess what, you're already 1/3 dead or your horse is in mercy mode etc... The game is literally setup mechanically so that the only PvP involves griefing/ganking, so of course you can't be surprised that that's more or less the only PvP that occurs. You can't even take an approach of 'if anyone approaches me in the wild I'm going to fire a shot' because of the flag nonsense. You gotta just sit there and hope in one hand and shit in the other.

There is no meaningful venue for someone to have a lawful playstyle, unless they want to do so to their own detriment. If you want to play lawful, you don't get to PvP. Simple as that. It's a bad system and will never appeal to very many people. It feels really bad. The more I learned about the system surrounding RPK the more I was like, "WTF were they thinking...". Basically, if you don't feel like getting the drop on someone and murdering them for no reason, you don't get to participate. That's not 'sandbox', that's very obviously mechanically favouring one playstyle. If that's all they want to offer in terms of mechanics for PvP, fine, but there needs to be a more sensible system under the hood.

It feels like they half implemented the system and then forgot about it. Rep should not work like this. Why does rep work with such small, flat numbers? Why is running errands the main rep gainer? None of it is good mechanically. The grey flagging is even worse. It takes so much away when you have a full loot PvP game but the mechanics surrounding PvP are completely arbitrary and broken. This is literally the 'core' mechanic of the game, to some extent it drives all content, and it doesn't facilitate fun gameplay.

Like, just as an example, drop the blue-flagging bullshit, get rid of the big tedious 'consequences' around being a criminal, add more grey priests, no blue priests in grey towns, some grey brokers, etc., and make it so instead of rep for deliveries, the only way to gain rep is to kill criminals. Put a timer on it so you can't just spam kill your buddy over and over. Boom, there are still consequences for being a criminal, and you can't just grind and pray your sins away; people will be coming for you & you're still locked out of blue towns-- but with brokers, more grey priests etc., these aren't tedious consequences, and from a straight time/gameplay-utility standpoint you're not that disadvantaged. I'm not saying this would just magically fix things, but at least this is an example of a sandbox mechanic that incentivizes & delineates PvP so that it's not just 'morally grey' grind-and-gank gameplay. How the heck are PvE deliveries & timers/res-walks an example of 'sandbox' mechanics? They're not.

 

[Jatix]

Most gamers are casuals. No casual wants to spend 90% of their time getting killed by neckbeards who play all day and night doing nothing but killing players like a battle royale.

No casual wants to run parcels, or not be able to play because they didn't do parcel runs so they can walk 20 mins back to town from the red priest. So that they can roam around for the hours they don't have. Games dying because its overall boring and empty, and takes too much time to do anything. I play with my friend 2 hours a night. MO2 is never our top pick. Its way too likely to have nothing interesting happen.

 

[ArcaneConsular]

No casual wants to run parcels, or not be able to play because they didn't do parcel runs so they can walk 20 mins back to town from the red priest. So that they can roam around for the hours they don't have. Games dying because its overall boring and empty, and takes too much time to do anything. I play with my friend 2 hours a night. MO2 is never our top pick. Its way too likely to have nothing interesting happen.

Yeah it's cool at first, but when you have to travel for an hour everytime you want to do a dungeon or whatever it just gets too tedious and eventually you can't be bothered to do it. Especially in a PvP game where there's a good chance that on your way there or back you're going to get killed. Then you have to get regeared, get a new mount, etc. I can see how most people could die and just never be bothered to log back on again

 

[Emdash]

post

I admit I didn't read this line for line, but I read a good amount! Gotta do something while I take a shit! No, but I am pretty sure I understand it. I read prol 95% of it. I can clear some things up. First off: appreciate the words. - cookie monster -

However, my POV and yours differ about certain things. For instance, you said rulesets foster behavior, and I agree with that, but you're wrong that the rule set is fostering grief and rpk. It's not fostering anything. It's a suppression rule set. The grief/rpk, some of it is lashing out against the game, some of it is because the game doesn't distinguish between the best/worst kind of pvp. The idea that you are going to get like... true wars of honorable pvp is also kind of insanity.

I feel that all grey is also good and that yeah there would be a force of people who were ARPK just like in MO1!! Doesn't mean they weren't perpetually unsuccessful, BUT I think that's because ARPK is a nonsense ideal in MO. It's often used as a kind of distraction from what a guild is really doing. "RPK" is a suspect word, too. There need to be people out there killing. As I've said before, nobody asks the mobs why they attack on sight. Having people like that isn't BAD.

I am all for FEWER restrictions because the problem w/ everything I've suggested, thought about, what you suggested etc etc... is that there will always be an exploit. The opposite is nothing, and there will be no exploit for that. Fewer systems = fewer exploits, the people will decide what is right and wrong. People will get on the forums and argue about whether something was right or wrong then the community will make their decision and, maybe, best case... someone gets sieged haha.

The advantage to being 'non RPK' is not getting KoS'd. PvPing for luls, mailing people back their gear, just going in on people and letting them run away, etc... opposed to being the kind of dude who camps and tea bags people, all that stuff matters. I killed some people who weren't properly able to defend themselves before I quit. The idea of 'gains' is good enough to drive pvp, but pvp in general should be looked at as a sort of TAG or CAPTURE THE FLAG. If you remove the idea of morality (and as people know lol I am kind of a moral person in life) from the act of killing or give people the benefit of the doubt, you can enjoy the game more. Obviously, people who are actually trying to grief you will get thru the screen and be different, but just getting killed outside? Oh well, who knows why it happened, that's why in MO1 people were like o shit it's... THE HUNTZMAN or w/e.

MO1 system was bad, MO2 system is bad... I dunno which is worse because MO2 is so much worse as a game. It's never gonna reach (IMO) that level of community investment, but MO1 held down some pretty serious play with their ruleset... the whole red thing wasn't bad. Open pvp. YOU PVP YOU ARE OPEN PVP. I dunno why people won't just accept that. Then let everyone do their thing. I do think they need spawn timers, especially in regards to dying repeatedly, kind of like leeg where as the game goes on you are put down longer, except the more you die or the more serious the event (like during a siege/war) the longer you are put down.

People do not need a reason to fight in this game; nobody is gonna stop people from killing nubs cuz there are people who are like hyena level and that'll be their main prey. Whether they are trying for gains or tears. Mainly, it's best to try to balance around the pvp of vet v vet, smallscale-->large. Not the combat mechanics, but the way the game interprets pvp. The flag is def not immersive. Again RED was immersive because it meant ENEMY, even tho... it didn't, a lot of people took it that way, and thus they had people to hunt, run from, etc.

I guess in short, my main disagreement is you believe the rules foster grief, where as I believe the rules suppress everything to the point that only someone w/ a griefer mindstate is willing to put in the effort to pvp haha. Which is vastly different, again imo.

PS: BDO is bad as a combat game and various other things, but in terms of a justchill widget making game, it has its charm. It's def better than most of the other stuff. If you played for awhile when they gave out all the free stuff and have good pets etc... don't have to p2w, it's def worth messing with, but in the end you are gonna get owned by someone who you can't even scratch. For some reason that bothers people. FOR ME, if you paid 10k or w/e to get there, who am I to be offended?

 

[UrDUumb]

Honestly Red and Grey whenever you attack someone is so stupid its for idiots. Everyone should be blue at all times period. Murder counts are stupid. When I killed another person in RL they don't report me for murder. Attempted murder I understand. He tried to kill me and I got away and I don't know his name. Names shouldn't even be shown in game. This game needs alot of work. If your asking how you identify players. Give them cuts like most biker clubs and if they don't belong to one they get a blank cut or no cut.