Discussion on the Implementation of Staff Magic

[Weis]

Bottom Line Up Front (BLUF): If implemented properly, Staff magic can bring in more class variations while also stimulating player economy and promoting healthier PVP/PVE experiences. If implemented lazily, the Staff update would miss out on opportunities to enhance nearly all aspects of the game.

In response to a recent suggestion forum post (IYKYK) I figured I would brain dump some ideas to better balance mages and provide more versatility to the class/game. I plan on compiling the player feedback in this forum discussion to ask meaningful questions and suggestions to Henrik during his Thursday streams. I am a subscriber on twitch and have a fair number of bits I will donate to the cause!

This is mostly a mental exercise since we know StarVault doesn’t read the forums, but won't hurt to debate and provide feedback, especially since I will be refining this post and sending suggestions during the streams.

Section 1: Crafting
A Staff is essentially a club and should do quite a bit of blunt damage with near zero slashing or pierce.

1. Different Wood types will change the durability, weight, swing speed, and Aesthetic just like any other crafted weapon but does not affect the spell damage or casting speed.
2. Since the staff is a stick, it does not require much strength to use. However, utilizing heavier woods to craft should make the staff have a higher strength requirement.
3. Scrolls are needed to enchant the staff with the ability to cast a spell.
4. The scroll enchanted into the staff will give the staff a “skill range” much like how spellbooks require a skill range of primary points in a magic school to use. This is to prevent non-mages from using a staff and breaking the entire game…
5. Gems are needed to make a staff, the rarer the gem, the more charges it has and the more spells you can enchant the staff with.
   

Section 2: Staff Melee Damage
A Staff is essentially a club and should do quite a bit of blunt damage with near zero slashing or pierce.

1. Primary points in Clubs would be required to increase damage output
2. Different Wood types will change the Damage outputs, durability, weight, swing speed, and Aesthetic just like any other crafted weapon.
3. Staff loses durability on melee damage, blocks and parry’s

Section 3: Staff Casting

1. Spells are casted immediately after it is channeled
2. Channeling can be done while moving but will have some sway affecting accuracy (to avoid dex mage run and gun murder fest)
3. Channeling can be interrupted if you take damage
4. Casting spells with a staff will consume mana

Section 3: Benefits to PVE experience and economy

1. Gems have purpose and more value if implemented in this way.
2. Creates another gold sink since the staff durability can go to zero and the gem breaks after it runs out of charges
3. More players will hunt certain monsters or creatures to get their hands on rare gems for crafting high tier battlemage staffs
4. All those scrolls you keep getting from bandit camps will have a purpose.
5. Barrels, boxes, and POI chests will have more utility since they occasionally drop gems.
6. Bandit camps will have more purpose other than being a noob clade farm (Scroll drops)
7. Adds even more crafting diversity which is a major selling point to the game.

Section 5: Skill point usage
Implementing the Staff in this way just gives full mages an option to be viable in PVP and lets other builds have more utility and access to other magic schools.

1. 100 Primary Points in Clubs
2. 100 Primary points in Staff Attunement (the magic school to use a staff)
3. ### All the other primary points you still need to be an effective mage
   

 

[Emdash]

In response to a recent suggestion forum post (IYKYK) I figured I would brain dump some ideas to better balance mages and provide more versatility to the class/game. I plan on compiling the player feedback in this forum discussion to ask meaningful questions and suggestions to Henrik during his Thursday streams. I am a subscriber on twitch and have a fair number of bits I will donate to the cause!

Bless you, my brother. I hope this works out for you/everyone. Just wanted to say that, totally out of my element (fak I do bad puns without even trying) discussing staff magic haha.

 

[Weis]

totally out of my element

Looks like you put 100 primary points into puns

 

[Fearce]

Bottom Line Up Front (BLUF): If implemented properly, Staff magic can bring in more class variations while also stimulating player economy and promoting healthier PVP/PVE experiences. If implemented lazily, the Staff update would miss out on opportunities to enhance nearly all aspects of the game.

In response to a recent suggestion forum post (IYKYK) I figured I would brain dump some ideas to better balance mages and provide more versatility to the class/game. I plan on compiling the player feedback in this forum discussion to ask meaningful questions and suggestions to Henrik during his Thursday streams. I am a subscriber on twitch and have a fair number of bits I will donate to the cause!

This is mostly a mental exercise since we know StarVault doesn’t read the forums, but won't hurt to debate and provide feedback, especially since I will be refining this post and sending suggestions during the streams.

Section 1: Crafting
A Staff is essentially a club and should do quite a bit of blunt damage with near zero slashing or pierce.

1. Different Wood types will change the durability, weight, swing speed, and Aesthetic just like any other crafted weapon but does not affect the spell damage or casting speed.
2. Since the staff is a stick, it does not require much strength to use. However, utilizing heavier woods to craft should make the staff have a higher strength requirement.
3. Scrolls are needed to enchant the staff with the ability to cast a spell.
4. The scroll enchanted into the staff will give the staff a “skill range” much like how spellbooks require a skill range of primary points in a magic school to use. This is to prevent non-mages from using a staff and breaking the entire game…
5. Gems are needed to make a staff, the rarer the gem, the more charges it has and the more spells you can enchant the staff with.

Section 2: Staff Melee Damage
A Staff is essentially a club and should do quite a bit of blunt damage with near zero slashing or pierce.

1. Primary points in Clubs would be required to increase damage output
2. Different Wood types will change the Damage outputs, durability, weight, swing speed, and Aesthetic just like any other crafted weapon.
3. Staff loses durability on melee damage, blocks and parry’s

Section 3: Staff Casting

1. Spells are casted immediately after it is channeled
2. Channeling can be done while moving but will have some sway affecting accuracy (to avoid dex mage run and gun murder fest)
3. Channeling can be interrupted if you take damage
4. Casting spells with a staff will consume mana

Section 3: Benefits to PVE experience and economy

1. Gems have purpose and more value if implemented in this way.
2. Creates another gold sink since the staff durability can go to zero and the gem breaks after it runs out of charges
3. More players will hunt certain monsters or creatures to get their hands on rare gems for crafting high tier battlemage staffs
4. All those scrolls you keep getting from bandit camps will have a purpose.
5. Barrels, boxes, and POI chests will have more utility since they occasionally drop gems.
6. Bandit camps will have more purpose other than being a noob clade farm (Scroll drops)
7. Adds even more crafting diversity which is a major selling point to the game.

Section 5: Skill point usage
Implementing the Staff in this way just gives full mages an option to be viable in PVP and lets other builds have more utility and access to other magic schools.

1. 100 Primary Points in Clubs
2. 100 Primary points in Staff Attunement (the magic school to use a staff)
3. ### All the other primary points you still need to be an effective mage

Do the Staffmagic scale of int or psy? Will it have charges or just durability that drops on using it? Using scrolls for the staff will make this unbelieveable expensive. I think that for crafting such a staff you need scribing and the staffcrafting profession and you can only scribe spells which you can cast through your spellbook. The gems alone and the wood or other materials to craft the staff will make it expensive already by a lot. Adamant for example is around 100 gold. Because this is full loot i can not see anybody running around with a staff made out of ironwood and adamant. It is to much of a value just for casting a spell which you can also craft through your spellbook.

The next thing I do not want to see is that staffs will release the spells immediately. There should be a cast time BUT you should be able to decide after this with your spellkeys if you want to release it on a friend/enemy or yourself. The whole magic system like it is right nowis clunky and feels like the magic controls you and not you control the magic. I want more controlover it and be able to decide AFTER the spell has been cast where to put it. So moving while casting with staff is a yes and also be able to decide even if the timewindow is just 3-5 seconds.

 

[Raknor]

So, is the point of staff magic just making a Hybrid? Meh...

 

[Eventide]

I feel like staff magic should have two sides. One being similar to what you said and allowing for more of a battlemage feel. The other should be more like a wizard with a staff (Gandalf style) and being able to use that staff as a conduit for magic. Making your magic stronger, allowing for some self defense, etc.

This could be done by having just 2 types of staves available. A battle staff and a magic staff. The battle staff would be like what you mentioned, having more of a melee opportunity and ability to be enchanted with a scroll to cast that spell quickly in combat.

The magic staff should scale off of intelligence and make your magic much stronger at the cost of longer casts. This would allow people to be more of a pure mage if they desire or more of a battle mage if they desire. Both would have their uses. The magic staff should also still allow for parrying albeit fairly ineffectively, but it'd add to a mage's survivability. The magic staff should also have a semi-ranged basic attack that's like a magic missile from other games. It could cost a low amount of mana and do low damage. It could even be that you need to "reload" it by enchanting it again. So you only get like 50 shots before needing to do a spell over it (costing reagents) to reload it. This again would mostly just be for self defense and not have a major use.

Edit: Obviously having skills for both of these. Have the school "Staff Magic" itself be a secondary and mostly govern your general skill with a staff.. so like better parries at higher level and better damage with the staves themselves (not the magic cast from a magic staff). Then the battle staff as a primary (increasing damage with the staff further) then another skill under it as another primary. Magic staff would then be another primary (maybe something about how effective the basic missile attack is) and have something else under it as a primary (increasing casted magic damage with it and cast times). The enchanting mechanic of a staff would have to be a secondary as well or even add in a new profession of enchanting for this among enchanting other things.

So, is the point of staff magic just making a Hybrid? Meh...

Similar to what was said here, if staff magic is added and it's basically nothing more than a club to make a hybrid battlemage.. what's the point in adding it? Magic as it is sucks and you can't survive as just a mage so you already have to be a hybrid of some kind.

 

[Weis]

feel like staff magic should have two sides. One

The next thing I do not want to see is that staffs will release the spells immediately. There should be a cast time BUT you should be able to decide after this with your spellkeys if you want to release it on a friend/enemy or yourself.

Oh definitely, this cast immediately after channeling thing makes it very difficult to land shots. You basically gotta noscope somebody... Looks like staff magic didnt make it into the roadmap even.

 

[Weis]

So, is the point of staff magic just making a Hybrid? Meh...

This was a big issue with Mounted Archery. Not enough points so everyone was able to have it in their hybrid builds.
I think more primary points are needed to lock people in. Perhaps make it so people have to point and hold the staff like a bow, then add swaying and a primary skill that removes it. Forces guys to go full battlemage. Add a one handed version of it too?

 

[Weis]

Do the Staffmagic scale of int or psy? Will it have charges or just durability that drops on using it? Using scrolls for the staff will make this unbelieveable expensive. I think that for crafting such a staff you need scribing and the staffcrafting profession and you can only scribe spells which you can cast through your spellbook. The gems alone and the wood or other materials to craft the staff will make it expensive already by a lot. Adamant for example is around 100 gold. Because this is full loot i can not see anybody running around with a staff made out of ironwood and adamant. It is to much of a value just for casting a spell which you can also craft through your spellbook.

The next thing I do not want to see is that staffs will release the spells immediately. There should be a cast time BUT you should be able to decide after this with your spellkeys if you want to release it on a friend/enemy or yourself. The whole magic system like it is right nowis clunky and feels like the magic controls you and not you control the magic. I want more controlover it and be able to decide AFTER the spell has been cast where to put it. So moving while casting with staff is a yes and also be able to decide even if the timewindow is just 3-5 seconds.

Making Scribing the primary and having Staffcrafting the secondary under it is a really smart idea. Forces the crafters to be scribes which adds more utility for people who scribe.

Which brings me to the scroll thing. If a staff lets you focus magic faster and adds ability to walk around and keep a preloaded spell like a crossbow, we should avoid making it too easy to cast every spell in your spellbook, thats too game breaking. Imagine someone rolling up and having ability to spamcast miasma or blind constantly. Most basic ecumenical scrolls are very easily farmed from bandit casters. Spend 1 hour at a bandit camp or bandit spawn and you can pull in a few flamestrike or thunderslash scrolls easy. Theyre so common that you can buy them for 1g on the vendor. Higher level scrolls will have more utility as a miasma staff will be somewhat OP, but it means a guy is walking around with 1k worth of gear. In a full loot game, that adds much excitement...

Why not give these scrolls more value and put them into a breakable staff that gives utility?
If they implement staff magic in this way, you'll definitely see a lot of davit or opal staffs with basic wood and a solid 5-10 charges, they wont suck too bad and wont be too OP. Pre loaded with flamestrikes and thunderslashes. its also easy to counter since hitting a staff guy would interrupt the spell and would force them to fight melee.

For the gems, most of the gems you can get from mining and you get them quite frequently. Barrels, chests, boxes, and mobs already drop them. Minotaurs drop gems almost 100% of the time and so do trolls. Yeah if someone is gonna roll around with an adamant gem, they deserve adequate bonus for wasting it on a staff. Higher level gems means more scrolls can be scribed into the staff.

 

[bbihah]

I think the original pitch for staff magic is how it needs to be done to have any relevancy, granted when Henrik talked about it like 8 years ago it was a very basic concept but I think the core structures of it are very solid to make it a useful school with its own niche. Granted the stuff I remember from the 4? 5? minute glance over it along all the other schools with the release of the scrolls in mo1 left A LOT to be filled in with your own theory so take the following with a huge bucket of salt;
Staves have their own mana pool and power which is determined with crafting materials and the body+head types. Some materials and types might give a bigger pool while others might be more power oriented. How they gain mana back is not mentioned afaicr(passive, item, channel/resting etc are all plausible ways it can be done).

Staves can't be used to block, cant be swung as a weapon. I'm assuming this was a hint that it was more or less a engine limitation at the time so; subject to change, with introduction of self and target cast it might as well free up those functions as blocking is pretty vital.
Staves have two spells bound to them at any one time. Mouse1(E), Mouse2(Q).

The staff magic spells when cast override the spells currently in the staff spell 2 fading away with Spell 1 replacing it and new spell taking m1s place.
Damage done with the staff is determined mostly by the staffs power but also the casters power and skills matter. Casters mana pool is less important than for a normal mage as it just lets you swap spells, which will happen a lot but is not nearly as vital as the staffs mana which will be used to make the current imbued spells actually work.

95% of this is shit I came up with myself so another reminder to take this as more of a example of how it could play out with the very basic stuff we heard about it in the past. Also they can change their mind and do something entirely different so /shrug.

 

[Midas]

Staves should just be a castable projectile of many different types/elements/schools. blockable with shield like arrows , charge to cast like arrows cast while moving like arrows cast while on horse back like arrows. Nothing major as an actuall school more of a tool to be used by mages to fight and duela gainst eachother and more defense against melee. im a mage and i dont want it to be OP i just want mages to be able to 1v1 and pve.

 

[Eventide]

Staves should just be a castable projectile of many different types/elements/schools. blockable with shield like arrows , charge to cast like arrows cast while moving like arrows cast while on horse back like arrows. Nothing major as an actuall school more of a tool to be used by mages to fight and duela gainst eachother and more defense against melee. im a mage and i dont want it to be OP i just want mages to be able to 1v1 and pve.

Yeah that's why I suggested have some sort of melee battlemage style but also a ranged style where it really is just a tool. As a mage, I agree that we need more to be able to 1v1 and PvE. I currently can't play the game unless a friend is playing too. I like that dynamic but I don't like that I literally can't do anything without having someone else with me. Even if a staff was just lowered damage it'd be great. I would like to see it have skills you could go into, but not necessary to really use it. Like I said, I'd actually enjoy being able to skill into a staff skill that makes my magic much stronger but take longer to cast. So if I need like a powerful burst I could pull out my staff to channel my energy. Though it's still also usable as a melee and able to block.

Currently magic is just a mess.. the damage is negligible. We're mostly just useful as a healer considering how much you can heal for and how little mana it takes. The funny thing is nobody sees that as game-breaking, but the second you mention magic being better at 1v1, PvE, and having an ability to block everyone goes off about how game-breaking that would be.. They act like magic currently is already OP because it can do decent burst damage but they fail to realize we literally can only cast like 4 times before having no mana.. So yes it does fairly decent damage but after 4 attacks (which can also miss) we have to recharge.. this makes fighting extremely hard. It's not like any other fighting style runs out of momentum after just 4 attacks.. and they can do more damage in those 4 attacks as well..