Disable Murdercount on Use of Home Priest or in the World At Large

Evelyn

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2021
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Today my guild went to the Sator Dungeon. Shortly after, a larger guild entered behind us. One well placed ambush later, we had killed them all to ensure our own safety and to retain control of the dungeon and the boss kill. Promptly, the murdercounts started rolling in for an unavoidable fight that was far from Bakti. This immediately bricked a quarter of our group from ever entering Khurite areas again. The icing on the cake, is on the way out later the same guild attempted to ambush us on the way out and again we killed our way out of the situation to lose even more rep.

This is an unacceptable situation. It isn't as if we sat in the graveyard and murdered newbies for laughs. But it keenly illustrates what all PvP players are saying; The standing system as it is implemented is HORRIBLY flawed and one legitimate guild vs guild confrontation is enough to brick an account. You could argue that our opponents should have been a little better to us and not spammed murdercounts because they lost, but its not the point. This will happen when two blue guilds collide as well.

How can you expect this to be a playable full-loot PvP MMO when legitimate PvP encounters are so heavily punished, that it would almost be better to simply lay down and die and achieve a spiteful "victory" of banning your opponent in town? How do you stop other players from contesting resources? How do you stop other players form outright stealing from your PvE kills? Is everyone supposed to just let it happen until they somehow have territory control with all benches and stable masters which does not even have a definitive release date?

Either Standing needs to be extremely easy to replace or you need to remove Murdercounts from PvP that happens outside of towns.
 

Tzone

Well-known member
May 16, 2021
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If no guard saw it, why should you get a murder count. All these guilds some how never killed a person and are blue but come to fight you all the time. When they lose after coming out to fight you and consent to the fight they will murder count you.

Had a group follow from fab to kran. When they lost they murdercounted. Why are the losers allowed to murder count the winners in a consenting fight?

Very carebear game.
 

Evelyn

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2021
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Henrik wants to sit there and say "If you commit the crimes, then it will take time to repair your standing" but we committed no crimes here. We fought back versus a larger force entering the dungeon to compete for the boss while we were inside. Players do not deserve to be punished for every single PvP encounter.
 

lord_yoshi

Member
Oct 3, 2020
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That other team was just looking to team up for some fun cooperation and your group decided to pull a "well placed ambush" to murder them all, clearly the system is working correctly.
 

Evelyn

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2021
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That other team was just looking to team up for some fun cooperation and your group decided to pull a "well placed ambush" to murder them all, clearly the system is working correctly.
Haha silly me, they must have just forgotten to offer their assistance when we were in Bakti or maybe I was just too busy listening to the Pokérap to hear them say they were going to help us kill the boss :)
 

ArcaneConsular

Well-known member
Oct 27, 2021
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Idk preemptive strikes are such a moral gray area in real life and in pvp games. Hard to say if they are ever truly justified or not. I think maybe a better system would be to do some type of group flagging so mass group encounters like this only result in one murder count
 

Piet

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
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if you hit first and they were able to murder count you they were blue and not murderers. Although the rep system clearly isn't done this isn't a good example of it working poorly. Being a murderer has almost no drawbacks atm. Instead of the old 8 hours it's 15 min ride between towns and you're set.
 

Evelyn

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2021
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The worst part of it is that it backfires. Now there's every incentive to kill anyone and everyone for no reason at all. When you've short on rep, that Warden or Integrity guy in Kallardian Padded isn't worth the rep loss. When you're bricked from towns, it doesn't matter if they're naked. May as well mercy them until they suicide.
 
Apr 11, 2021
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Gaul'kor
I believe the developers are intentionally trying to stop veteran players from attacking a majority of players until they've added more ways to exist outside of cities as well as gain reputation.

It's a horrible strategy but I believe this is all on purpose to stifle quote on quote griefers even though this example provided is hurting all individuals.
 

Tzone

Well-known member
May 16, 2021
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Out of touch devs. Every rep change they did backfired but they keep doubling down. Fine with me doesnt hurt me as a red player only shooting them selves in the foot with all these new players going perma neg from blue blocking or being tricked. Also all the newbs just getting killed because why not your already neg.
 
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Rorry

Well-known member
May 30, 2020
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Kansas
if you hit first and they were able to murder count you they were blue and not murderers. Although the rep system clearly isn't done this isn't a good example of it working poorly. Being a murderer has almost no drawbacks atm. Instead of the old 8 hours it's 15 min ride between towns and you're set.
Your guild are murderers then, they often attack first those who can give MC's, as there is no way to tell by looking. (I don't mean that to comment on ARPK status, just that even when your guild are killing RPK'ers they get standing loss.) We need a better system. The old one was better than this, esp if we had workbenches at keeps and more priests, etc.

You have to ride between towns multiple times to get 1 rep now.
 
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sloppyjoe

New member
Jun 7, 2021
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It all boils down to the beta as it stands is a poor depiction of the game’s intended reputation balance. I’ve done 4 tasks on my Thursar and gained 0 standing. This all becomes a moot point when crafting tables become a thing in housing. Sure priests, stables, and TC will help, but I don’t think they’re absolutely necessary to stabilize this problem.

I do think there’s merit in the “if a tree falls in the woods” approach to standing loss. The whole point of venturing out is risk/reward. If an enemy faction is in or around a dungeon I think all bets should be off when it comes to anyone losing standing. Maybe key areas for endgame content don’t allow murder counts?
 

Toerin

Member
Dec 19, 2021
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Henrik wants to sit there and say "If you commit the crimes, then it will take time to repair your standing" but we committed no crimes here. We fought back versus a larger force entering the dungeon to compete for the boss while we were inside. Players do not deserve to be punished for every single PvP encounter.
“One well placed ambush later, we had killed them all to ensure our own safety and to retain control of the dungeon and the boss kill”.

“We committed no crimes” Lolol what is this stand your ground advocate bullshit? If they didn’t attack you and turn grey than you can’t kill players that haven’t thrown a punch yet without consequences of the npc law seeing you as guilty of assualt. Even if you “know” they we’re going to before they did. That’s not how any law system works
 

Tashka

Well-known member
Dec 4, 2021
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That doesn’t mean the act of killing another player unprovoked is not defined as murder though.

Excuse me? So you pretend to care about roleplay but think it's OK to metagame? Really? I'm amazed, honestly.
 

Evelyn

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2021
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Imagine not swinging first when your opponent has a Kallard Double Axe. I guess you just don't know if they really mean you any harm if they don't plant the axe in your head first c:
 
Apr 11, 2021
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Gaul'kor
Imagine being griefed by players and the only way to retaliate is to fight back which is considered illegal and results in rep loss.

But sure it protects new players.
 
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Nefnate

Well-known member
Jun 23, 2021
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My Mind
This is a complicated issue.

On one hand, it really is a moral grey area in such circumstances, like others have mentioned. If I am cutting through an alley and I see a man approaching me with a dark look in his eye and his hand in his pocket, I'm going to take the safe option and flee or make the first move. The law, however, often does not agree with this.

On the other hand, in a game that is meant to be fun while also realistic, how do you handle highly contested areas like a dungeon, and how do you handle these stand-off situations where both groups have decided they will attack and are 'baiting' out first blood? It's not fair and not fun for a guild who get stuck in a situation like this to get punished so hard.

I personally don't agree with full lawless mapping outside of towns - I think this is a step too far. You can say "they would have stabbed me" all you want, this devolves into a "I said, they said" really fast. In this game, the priests are able to tell if you are evil or not, or if they agree with the choices you have made, simply by asking them to resurrect you. With that in mind, I think it's fair to say that, wild or not, there is some form of spiritual karma at play - so "guards wouldnt know" is not quite up for debate.

I think the better solution is multifaceted:
  • First of all, make Dungeons Lawless areas.
    • Everyone goes local grey, murder counts and other nonsense is shut off.
    • Players can use their own politics to handle these occurrences, and it allows the game to be more freeform.
      • These Dungeons are meant to be for larger guilds, anyway.
      • -
  • Secondly, we need some form of Conflict System.
    • This is where it gets harder to deal with from both a conceptual and a technical point of view.
      • I have no idea how to properly do this and would need to spend a lot of time theorycrafting it.
      • Here is some spitballing:
      • -
    • It would handle when large groups of players fight over territory or resources, to stop MC and Rep from changing.
      • It would need to protect small groups or solo players, so they can still report when they are murdered.
      • It would need to not be manipulatable so that one side of a conflict could cheese it.
      • -
    • One option could be a function that works like a War Cry, with a channel.
      • Using it would send an AOE out to all nearby players.
      • Players who receive it could get a status effect labeled "Conflict"
        • The player could then enter their chat and use a command, or open a UI, to accept or deny.
        • If accepted, all players who were in the radius enter a state similar to a wardec, so no one can be reported.
          • If anyone in this Conflict state hits anyone not in it, it counts as crim.
          • If anyone NOT in this Conflict state, hits someone IN it, it counts as crim.
            • This would make it much harder for people to ignore it, as anyone who opts out but tries to jump in anyway will be the one being punished.
      • I can see a lot of ways to cheese, this, though, so I don't think it is a good choice without more nuance.
 
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Piet

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
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Your guild are murderers then, they often attack first those who can give MC's, as there is no way to tell by looking. (I don't mean that to comment on ARPK status, just that even when your guild are killing RPK'ers they get standing loss.) We need a better system. The old one was better than this, esp if we had workbenches at keeps and more priests, etc.

You have to ride between towns multiple times to get 1 rep now.
It def needs some love. IMO it was better in mo1 when it was simpler at least so far. Taking the first hit and letting them go grey is kinda what the system is intended for currently. Even if that is parried though they go grey so it's not like it's the end of the world and you lose because of it.
 
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Evelyn

Well-known member
Jan 6, 2021
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It def needs some love. IMO it was better in mo1 when it was simpler at least so far. Taking the first hit and letting them go grey is kinda what the system is intended for currently. Even if that is parried though they go grey so it's not like it's the end of the world and you lose because of it.
It is not uncommon for a couple enemies to go gray to bait out the fight, and then have your blues rush in to blueblock and make sure you can give them murdercounts. Six of you may die, but 4 of you get to accuse murder for a fight you started. The system is broke, pure and simple.
 
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Piet

Well-known member
May 28, 2020
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Turn off crim actions if you're worried about it but you're right the system isn't finished for sure. I think the mo1 way made more sense because it was simple even though it had the same issue.