Combat Suggestions [Feedback]

[Kaemik]

I think and have stated elswhere the game should recreate the offchance accomplishment it made in mo1 by allowing even nakeds or bone armored people to challenge armored offenders. This keeps the game noob centered without giving outrage to vets who also enjoy the same advantage. The stagnation of ttk is not a zone that cannot be reintroduced. It would likely equalize after the higher scale players adjust to the demand of being armored. That's I think what the system felt like it was and why pansar felt so great

Could be conjecture but that's my impression

Honestly if what we want is a skilled player to show up someone who sucks while naked then parry meta is perfect. As much as people exaggerate how easy it is to parry, you cannot come into this game and start getting 100% parries 5 minutes into your first day of play. It takes more talent than I have to get there 5 days in (Though that may have something to do with latency, where is the server located?). A good player can fend off a lesser player naked with a dagger quite easily IMO.

The current system is very skilled:
1. You need to read where the swing is coming from and that can take some time learning all the animations for each weapon.
2. You need to parry right before the attack and not too far ahead of time.
3. You need to gauge distance and land the hit.
4. You can really punish people if you follow up a parry with a quick counter-attack.
5. You need to balance charge time with attacks being too easy to read and then block.
6. Stam management.

That skill ceiling may be lower than some people like right now. But it's definitely not so low you have any chance against someone who has reached it in your first few days of play. Or that everyone will ever reach it.

 

[Ministro]

Apologies in advance, I usually make a conscious effort to keep my posts positive, but enough is enough.

/soapbox on

Time to say what is *not* being said in YET ANOTHER thread littered with "1vX" and "but you're encouraging zerging" arguments.
What is not being said is that in MO1, there was a small group of individuals who got to a point where they could just wade through an entire squad of say, half a dozen people, and kill them all without needing a heal, or even running out of stamina. (I'm looking at you Teknique/Rorry/Handsome, and a few others) These individuals had the time of their lives at the expense of basically everyone else, because they enjoyed essentially Superman status.

And they desperately want to bring that ridiculous bullshit back.

I am seriously hoping that the Dev's aren't gonna buy it a second time. Dev's no longer playing/guilding with them was a step in the right direction.

The best way to tell who these people are, is to simply watch who continues, thread after thread, using phrases like "but you're ruining my 1vX" and "but that's gonna encourage zerging" as if being outnumbered isn't supposed to convey an advantage. It is, should have been for a long time, and getting rid of that incredibly unbalanced near-invulnerability you enjoyed is one of the best changes being made to PVP moving to MO2. In a skill-based game you should, of course, be able to successfully take on better armed/armored opponents of lesser skill, and you should even be able to take on a few decent players, but once it gets past a certain 1vX, no matter your skill level, you *should* be getting your ass handed to you regularly. This is not carebear, this is fixing a long overdue game imbalance that was never addressed in MO1 because the Dev's played alongside you, and unduly listened to a selfish, highly vocal minority. When half a dozen halfway decent guys are absolutely helpless to stop a single solo player who can regularly kill them all without even worrying about running out of stamina, much less needing even a single heal, you have an imbalance so bad, that people stop playing the game, not because it's too "hardcore" but because limiting factors like stamina are desperately in need of tweaking, and the Dev's were listening to all the wrong people, much to the detriment of MO1, RIP.

Skill should win, numbers should matter, and gear should be a distant third factor; skill should not convey near-invulnerability. You are *supposed* to lose fights where are you wildly outnumbered. This is not MO1. Stop trying to bring that selfish, game-destroying garbage back.

/soapbox off

 

[Kaemik]

Zerging is a real concern and I say that as someone who is utter trash at melee. A really skilled player SHOULD be able to 1vX really bad players if they play their cards right. Fights shouldn't be entirely determined by whoever can bring the most numbers to the field.

If they were wading through an organized force that was fighting as a cohesive team and 1vXing them then that is a major issue.

If they were wading through an unorganized mob getting more hits in on friendlies than the target or choking/holding attacks for too long to avoid teamhits... then that was probably appropriate.

There are certain tactics you can and should use to these types of games to maximize the impact of a numbers advantage. And if you aren't using those tactics you kind of deserve to get massacred.

I don't know enough about the specifics of what happened to say more than that.

 

[Ministro]

I agree with every single thing you just said, Kaemik.

 

[Kaemik]

I agree with every single thing you just said, Kaemik.

Of course you agree I'm trash at melee. Everyone who has fought me does. XD

But yeah if their opponents were using good team tactics and still getting slaughtered then you have a valid concern something is wrong. But whenever that's the case I think the first tree to bark up usually is "Is there too much of a gear / stat gap?" As that's usually going to be the root of a problem that involves vets stomping newbs too easily, even if the newbs have good team-tactics and a bit of practice under their belts.

 

[Buffallo]

Honestly if what we want is a skilled player to show up someone who sucks while naked then parry meta is perfect. As much as people exaggerate how easy it is to parry, you cannot come into this game and start getting 100% parries 5 minutes into your first day of play. It takes more talent than I have to get there 5 days in (Though that may have something to do with latency, where is the server located?). A good player can fend off a lesser player naked with a dagger quite easily IMO.

The current system is very skilled:
1. You need to read where the swing is coming from and that can take some time learning all the animations for each weapon.
2. You need to parry right before the attack and not too far ahead of time.
3. You need to gauge distance and land the hit.
4. You can really punish people if you follow up a parry with a quick counter-attack.
5. You need to balance charge time with attacks being too easy to read and then block.
6. Stam management.

That skill ceiling may be lower than some people like right now. But it's definitely not so low you have any chance against someone who has reached it in your first few days of play. Or that everyone will ever reach it.

The entire system should notnbe weighted for people playing for 2 -5 days only.

 

[Kaemik]

Well like I said I had 5 days of practice if I subtract days I've done nothing but spreadsheets and I am still not there yet. But I'm just naturally bad at anything that takes good reflexes and I think I have a latency issue compounding that. At least it seems some of the swings connected when I was standing far enough from the target I felt sure they shouldn't and some swings seemed to have way less delay between when their hand started moving and when I took damage. My internet isn't too bad but I'm west coast US so if we're on a European server that makes a lot of sense.

I used 5 days as an example because that's about where I am at. Not because I think anyone really masters this game in 5 days.

 

[Ministro]

Of course you agree I'm trash at melee. Everyone who has fought me does. XD

hahaha, don't feel badly; I tradeskilled way too much in MO1 (we were on an island, such ez-mode) and fought too little, which is why I'm so into how PVP turns out in MO2; I intend to mostly fight this time.

I'm a little worried people don't seem to be remembering enough that right now we are all playing heavily armored tanks, which is the worst-case scenario in terms of things like stamina and time-to-kill. If we normalize to this too much, we risk adjusting things like stamina to the point where high-dex mages are going to be unbalanced high-speed marathon runners, and if we adjust tanky playstyles to where tanks drop like flies, may as well all hop on a mount and start nuking, because if you're gonna break like glass, may as well be a cannon.

 

[Ministro]

but I'm west coast US so if we're on a European server that makes a lot of sense.

yes European server.

 

[Kaemik]

Yeah. I wonder where people saying "You can super easily parry every blow" are located. I hope the real game ends up East coast US. That's way fairer to most players since there is a strong split of west coast and EU guys. Because I'm definitely not feeling it's too easy to land 100% of my parries. I have to do trolly crap like running and bandaging to make fights drag out, if I just stand and fight it's over pretty quick. Something tells me a few EU guys who feel the game is "too easy" may change their tune if the server gets moved.

Beyond the "we are all tanks" issues. We're also all rocking like 115 con and 100 in every single combat skill that's in right now. We really should be testing the current content for bugs more than making huge assumptions about balanced based on how things are currently playing out. Not only will getting all roles in change everything. I expect things to majorly change when the skill and attribute caps hit as well. Clade bonuses are another huge thing that we can't test ATM.

 

[Ministro]

Yeah. I wonder where people saying "You can super easily parry every blow" are located. I hope the real game ends up East coast US. That's way fairer to most players since there is a strong split of west coast and EU guys. Because I'm definitely not feeling it's too easy to land 100% of my parries.

Henrik is in Europe and this is his favorite toy; I seriously doubt they're gonna move the server across the pond from the boss. As far as parry is concerned, AFAIK, most people are more concerned with how wide the parry arc is than anything else. (It really is too wide; if you get *behind* a guy, you shouldn't get parried, you should knock the crap outta the guy, esp with the stamina cost of getting behind someone.) The rest of the parry complaints seem to be based on forgetting that the tanky playstyle isn't supposed to be some uber solo-artist thing, but the front line of a well-coordinated team, where parry from the front's gonna need to work well. We already learned how lame 360 degree parry is in MO1 in terms of negating skill, esp. since (thankfully) ballerina-style pirouette exploits have been largely nullified by turn caps.

 

[Buffallo]

M......my statement is slower block will....help low reflex players.......

Elon musk face

Well like I said I had 5 days of practice if I subtract days I've done nothing but spreadsheets and I am still not there yet. But I'm just naturally bad at anything that takes good reflexes and I think I have a latency issue compounding that. At least it seems some of the swings connected when I was standing far enough from the target I felt sure they shouldn't and some swings seemed to have way less delay between when their hand started moving and when I took damage. My internet isn't too bad but I'm west coast US so if we're on a European server that makes a lot of sense.

I used 5 days as an example because that's about where I am at. Not because I think anyone really masters this game in 5 days.

 

[Buffallo]

Henrik is in Europe and this is his favorite toy; I seriously doubt they're gonna move the server across the pond from the boss. As far as parry is concerned, AFAIK, most people are more concerned with how wide the parry arc is than anything else. (It really is too wide; if you get *behind* a guy, you shouldn't get parried, you should knock the crap outta the guy, esp with the stamina cost of getting behind someone.) The rest of the parry complaints seem to be based on forgetting that the tanky playstyle isn't supposed to be some uber solo-artist thing, but the front line of a well-coordinated team, where parry from the front's gonna need to work well. We already learned how lame 360 degree parry is in MO1 in terms of negating skill, esp. since (thankfully) ballerina-style pirouette exploits have been largely nullified by turn caps.

Nope alot of them are tired of looking at people just stand there and parry them all...day....and yeah I just. Dunno....why that is a feature. It's not hard to change and....we are ready to have combat back to what we are familiar with. Disempowering zergs sounds totally

 

[Kaemik]

I'm not clear what you are arguing for. As I said (And this may be a language barrier issue) you tend to use imprecise wording for some things that makes it a bit difficult to read your intent.

I know from another topic you want parry to be momentarily disabled after an attack lands. And while I personally would benefit a lot from that system I feel like that's going to result in everyone running daggers, katanas, and nodachis then just face mashing into each other and button mashing. Which is why it would help me. XD

But I didn't realize you want block to be slower. What are you advocating for?

 

[Ministro]

Nope alot of them are tired of looking at people just stand there and parry them all...day....and yeah I just. Dunno....why that is a feature. It's not hard to change and....we are ready to have combat back to what we are familiar with. Disempowering zergs sounds totally

You have a point on the parry-whoring; it needs work. Every time I face it, I keep *really* wanting a good disarm mechanic. I suggested in another thread that a hit right the hands should make them drop their weapon, or at least have a chance to, maybe based on weapon weight disparity and strength disparity, perhaps even stamina as a factor. What do *you* think would be a good solution?

 

[Ministro]

Oh hey Buffalo (and anyone else) what do you think of the swing speed of the traditionally quicker weapons, like daggers and light 1-handers? Everyone's going at each other with massive 2-handers, which are def. slow, what do you think of the non-2-handers?

 

[Buffallo]

You have a point on the parry-whoring; it needs work. Every time I face it, I keep *really* wanting a good disarm mechanic. I suggested in another thread that a hit right the hands should make them drop their weapon, or at least have a chance to, maybe based on weapon weight disparity and strength disparity, perhaps even stamina as a factor. What do *you* think would be a good solution?

Man it's just math. Opti....man I'll just do a write up but you kids will slam it. Better to just take the easy route and understand from people who lost alotta shit to get decent in a system that offered options. When you look for solutions to problems that solution should not create the same type of issue. Slowing block removes something that is taking away options. offense. Dig baby.

 

[Buffallo]

Oh hey Buffalo (and anyone else) what do you think of the swing speed of the traditionally quicker weapons, like daggers and light 1-handers? Everyone's going at each other with massive 2-handers, which are def. slow, what do you think of the non-2-handers?

You from me asketh? Oh yeah well the system is so bad for them I just talked to sunlutang ma dawg and he has the issue. When they increased blocks it made the distance so much worse for shorter range weapons. Also they added block delay after missed swings (wasn't legacy mechanix) so guy be dying because hard to aimeth now with dagger for some reason but also they get tuned after missed hits. Whats going good for them is speeded uppo attacka landed but ye can foresee it maketh rage due to cron or worse items. Making block more concerted and not so rapid will not only help daggers viability but larger weapons which are slow as well as give a method to kill them because they too cannot block. As it stands dagger boys gettin crunched.

 

[Ministro]

Man it's just math. Opti....man I'll just do a write up but you kids will slam it. Better to just take the easy route and understand from people who lost alotta shit to get decent in a system that offered options. When you look for solutions to problems that solution should not create the same type of issue. Slowing block removes something that is taking away options. offense. Dig baby.

I think that chip damage on parrying will help. If they wanna parry-whore, they can just stand there and die more slowly.

 

[Buffallo]

I think that chip damage on parrying would help. If they wanna parry-whore, they can just stand there and die more slowly.

It ain't the real sauce. They always nerf sauce and giving peanuts. Trust us we know the way. Again most vets dont enjoy onesided system. They wanna brag. The assumption is that there will come a less leverageable system but thats, as far as I see, a mythical claim. Mo1 had most equitable system out even ten years later. Drastically unpopular opinion but I kick you if you don't agree