Combat/Overall feedback
- Thread starter Kevin
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Don't recall any instances of actually suffering that issue tbh, but I also never kept still, which made using prediction on me effectively.. kinda difficult?
Nonetheless I think the close ranged loss of charge because you or your weapon brushed the target is more of the culprit than 360 blocks.
Despite obvious bugs or sync/prediction issues, you gotta keep in mind that fights "taking forever" is not necessarily a bad thing. It adds tension and allows for tactics to take place. Battles instead of quick brute force skirmishes.
D
Dracu
Guest
Gotta agree, the longer fights and quick counter exchanges feel awesome. The stamina regain mid fights take a bit to long though. Resulting in starring contests that could be a bit shorter.
Going to keep using this video as it shows it really well.
around 50 seconds and onwards.They are both attacking each others back, They'd be having a jolly good time with arcs.
I'm not so sure of that after looking at the damage. Notice he is hitting for 1 damage handlehit the first swing, and the second swing with the parry is also a handlehit. It could be shitty hits ofcourse but it could also be he unintentionally clipped the guy behind him while swinging on the guy infront.
Maybe find another video with cleaner hits/more blatant display of what you are wanting to show?
This is not what's happening though. At around 0:54 PatWins comes in swinging, judging by the damage it's more likely he is aiming for the person in front of him, Falcon, rather than Ariola, the player who's perspective we are looking from.
Then at around 0:56 Ariola swings at PatWins and hits him for 16 damage, by standing behind him. PatWins reacts to this and looks to his left the same time as Ariola moves the same direction, so PatWins most likely spots Ariola and manages to parry the second hit. Had Ariola not moved and continued to stay behind PatWins it's more likely he wouldn't have been spotted.
They are both backpeddling with only one having his back turned, and that is PatWins. When he gets hit in the back for 16 he doesn't attempt to parry, why wouldn't he when Ariola does if they are both having the same experience?
I have already made the post. I will have called it when people start complaining about facestabs in the near future. As well as how easy it is to block. Who could have guessed, not actually doing anything to the combat system leaves the combat system in the same state? WAT
Well they aren't going to call it facestabs, because that doesnt make any sense outside of the context of tf2, so please stop calling it that.
Okay, and when the gentleman's agreement not to flee or heal is no longer in place? These fights will take days at a time.
Time to kill is too high, but this next point actually might help alleviate it.
Stamina regen is currently pretty garbage, and this is with us NAKED right now, as there is presently no armor weight. The defensive combat means you have to exert all of your stamina to get a hit or two in, and then it takes so much time for stamina to come back. There's a ridiculous amount of staring at each other time. Faster stam regen could help time to kill a lot too, because if you cut out all the filler time of the staring contests and the waddling towards one another, the time would probably be pretty fair (at least without heals and running away, we'll see how that effects things).
Yeah watching the footage it looks like he was aiming for someone else and caught our protagonist on the backswing. Im sure what you'e describing happens, but it doesnt look like thats what is happening here.
First swing? maybe. the other 3 are definitely directed at the person recording. And not once does he face the guy recording until things start clearing up a bit. The timing on the first interrupted swing makes me believe in that persons perspective he is actually behind both the recording player and the player he is trying to hit and the recording player is right up in his face, as the next hits that are actually directed at the recording player are still counting as handle hits and they are both backing down the hill with the player attacking not even turning to face the recording player. And the the recording player is crammed up in his face is also the reason why i think he immediately diverts his attention to the player recording, yet still somehow does not even turn to face him. What would have happened if there was a block arc and he decided to block instead of attack? Do you think he would loudly exclaim that he is being hit through his blocks? I think so, because that happened all the god damn time in Mo1.
It would be interesting if @PatWins had a recording of his perspective or maybe a slight memory of the group fight and could chime in.
Could be, its very chaotic, but if thats the case, its an extension of the fact ariola is EU, pat is NA, and even if they were looking at each other head on, and both could see that, ariola would still be swinging through pats blocks, because with that level of latency, the timing would be off and pat would be taking damage the moment the attack cocked on his screen. So whats the solution? Git fucked NA? Have fun trying to attack the 360 degree block while having a 0 degree one of your own? I think people want the block arc, cause its fucky but its fair.
We need fair and NOT fucky. Just not sure what that is yet.
I can't really remember. Lol
I'm sure my weapon was clipping just out of my camera view.
Right now, we already have net code in place that tries to make it more fair regardless of ping(granted it is nowhere as good as it should be, maybe we are getting there?), arcs are not going to make that better in any immediate future, so I find it mind boggling people want to make things worse instead of making progress.
Add arcs, people that can manage to get behind you on their end but not yours. Will hit you through your blocks 100% of the time.
We once had defensive bias blocking and it was horrible, but main reason was because it made turtling easy. You know why? because Mortal online combat has been stuck in a 3-way combat system for around 10 years now(Attack, block/parry, counter). Obviously you can't have a fully defensive biased system like we had at one point, but we sure as hell cant have what we have now if we want an international player base on one server.
Tuning it so regardless of ping, you have the same amount of time to react(to an extent), which I think Seb at one point was something they were working on already? Is a good step towards making that fairness better. A more defensive biased blocking might fix this a bit. But brings other problems, especially with super high ping users, server and server node issues as well as people manipulating their ping and connection stability.
The problem that also remain is that blocking is too easy and you get turtling. Without some sort of more defensive biased way of handling blocking, this is not where we go down the rabbit hole of saying Animation and ping/connection manipulation is supposed to be the way to get around this. Because that is the rabbit hole we are going down and there will most likely be a lot of this down the line. Heck we saw our first suspicious people this week already doing some things. So you can bet your ass there will be more and different "attacks"
Maybe the people that actually want good PvP that relies on player skill start suggesting things? Like I did? Because working backwards is not how you get mo2, its how you get mo1 with better textures.
360 blocking was a necessity, if with what seb and the other devs have been working on adds arcs and some improvements (maybe we get tilted towards defensive bias again) then we'll be EXACTLY where we are now with blocking being easy(and maybe even for high ping users this time) but with one added bonus. You will see less of people deliberately blocking attacks coming while they sprint away (very rare atm, but could have become a thing down the line with how blocking works right now) and accidental blocks to hits coming from behind. Do the problems fixed with a more defensive biased blocking outweigh the problems caused and that will pop up down the line? Possibly. Hopefully they can work on both tuning this, the arcs AND add things to the combat rather than doing what happened to mo1 all over again.
If we finally get some more fairness when it comes to blocking and how its handled between low and high ping. My suggestion still stands, time to get more into depth and my suggestion would be a sort of blocking delay. When whatever patch they are working on right now comes out I or I hope someone else creates a pure suggestion thread along the lines of "Possible additions to melee combat". Where we can come up with things that will benefit the melee combat and be less about staying where we are and remaking the dev cycle of mo1's combat by adjusting block arcs and counter timers for 10 years.
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While there are several melee-based games I can think of with completely functional blocking even with 200ms ping delays, I agree that 360 blocking should remain at least for an extended period of time. I recall in MO1 that certain weapons such as poleswords and maces had "preferred" swing directions due to favorable swing arcs. For poleswords, a left swing allowed you to get the best range and a near 180 degree swing arc. For maces, the right swing dealt the most damage. If future weapons in MO2 also had these preferential swing directions I would definitely be in favor of keeping 360 degree blocking as it would be pretty easy to predict which direction someone behind me is going to swing from. This is especially the case with spears; I always hated getting sticky backed by people like Hayasa with a spear and shield. With 360 degree blocking, that'll be a non issue!
This will also help all the new people entering the game with being able to defend themselves from the vets. People who are experienced in MO will dominate noobs on the battlefield, but with 360 degree blocking even the newest, most unskilled of players can at least prevent themselves from dying too fast from a tenured veteran with a spear by center blocking as he runs back to town guards.
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That is if Spears will have only one attack direction as well as if we do not get any more depth added to combat. We have no idea how shields are going to work either. If shields come before we get a counter to block and say, they make it so you don't have to match block direction, just timing. or even worse, it can be held indefinitely. Then 360 blocking would be a very big problem, blocking in general would be a "problem" anyway then as the 3-way/step combat model is extremely lacking. All depending on how the netcode holds up against people trying to hit you in your back, block arcs is not going to change blocking being easy.
It is entirely possible Spears will follow the mechanics of other weapons, but who knows? They haven't really said anything about most things, its just all speculation.
I'm mostly holding out to see what they do next before I make any other suggestions than the ones I have already made. It would be beating a dead horse.
You think if a simple solution like that would've worked by now someone would have already brought it up. And if Sebastian hasn't implemented it yet then there would obviously be drawbacks associated that Henrik does not want.