Combat/Overall feedback

[Teknique]

It's sad that it takes 13 min to kill 2 players that are not very skilled, I think you would agree. The game is too easy and two dimensional currently to really say anyone is good or bad its just extremely low skill right now. I wouldn't call that block counter play as much as taking advantage of people without the mechanical knowledge and ability to block 4 directions efficiently. People can think it takes skill to block but in the current state, it does not if any it's very low skill.

I have already seen many flaws in bbihah delusional opinions lacking any argument or backing. I hope that his fanboydom doesn't cloud Seb or Henrik's thought process when reading his poorly backed points. "I LIKE IT" ok lil guy I am sure you do.

It is definitely slow, and I definitely had concerns similar to yours. I don't know if you watched it to the end but it took 13 minutes to kill them multiple times.

As for skill I find it interesting because it is scalable and repeatable. You can say yep I know this person will win they consistently perform that much better than their opponent. Now I think there are somethings to consider, these are not sponge wood hilts and these are not cronite weapons. There's no thunderbangs in game yet, I think the slow down is gonna make dealing with mages really hard you and I probably agree with that but what it will do is make the "no way to get around block" crowd find that magic does indeed go through blocks.

Yeah the blocking is more forgiving, but I would hate for them to nerf the hell out of swings like they are right now and the blocking to also be unresponsive as hell. Right now with click drag the block goes where my brain goes its a good feeling I don't know why people don't like that.

Sorry thread is too long what did you want done about this, you want it to be MO1 where you just flurry and you get hit at the same time as the animation starts? Or you wanted a delay between changing block directions, I think that will shift the game back into intentionally missing a swing and then hitting with another direction, an old mo 1 trick.

 

[Kevin]

Sorry thread is too long what did you want done about this, you want it to be MO1 where you just flurry and you get hit at the same time as the animation starts? Or you wanted a delay between changing block directions, I think that will shift the game back into intentionally missing a swing and then hitting with another direction, an old mo 1 trick.

I want player skill to determine victory, mechanical skill, reaction time, and fluid understanding of mechanics(which are very much lacking right now). The combat is projected to be slow, low skill ceiling, and requiring very few mechanical skills.
Also I want an NA server to allow for the utmost competitive setting along with proper mechanics that cannot be implemented in current state of EU only server dependant on a prediction system once again,

 

[Eldrath]

The netcode will always be limited by server location, they will not enhance the network infrastructure of the world. 360 blocking is a poor mechanic and has already been said that it will be changed and any player who is skill-based appreciates that I am sure.
You are correct it didn't work for 10 years that's why 30 people ended up being the reoccurring player base.

I offered counterplay in the form of feints chambering like every other skill-based melee combat game has implemented, problem is the latency and the game is EU only at this point due to this. Right now MO1/2 blocking outplay has always been reliant on exploiting the games poor systems. The forbidden arts practiced by the god-king Joe tricking the game into thinking your swings were different directions or the ability to take advantage of lag to get around blocks. Spinning around like a ballerina in attempts to trick your opponents into miss blocking(sorry that's not abusing anything except bad gameplay)

It is ridiculous now and if you have the foresight to see it being so in the future it should bother you, but as its been stated many times in this thread 360 blocking will be fixed
A basic game mechanic that is irrelevant due to being able to re parry endlessly without fear of someone wrapping around and back hitting you.
I have also stated "liking" something is not an argument that holds any ground, please provide why you think this or don't bring it up at all. there is no variety in this mechanic as you state all weapons are canceled on a charge up if you are behind someone or near them. It has been said this is being worked on.
Know what is crazy playing an arena game where you risk nothing and just play for personal improvement, enjoyment, and sometimes ranking. Then going to a full loot game where weeks of effort are on the line, then saying you don't want it to be absolutely skill-based allowing for player skill to secure your time and effort through protecting your loot. The slower the TTK, the slower the movement, the lower the skill ceiling not enabling the best players to thrive and win but doing the opposite enabling players of lower caliber the increased chances to compete not because they are better but because the game is slowed down to a point where player skill is almost irrelevant.
You are absolutely right, I wish people would stop bitching about it and we would just get an NA server. It didn't work for 10 years and that is a leading reason the game had 30 reoccurring players in the end of its life. As I said before no one wants to risk weeks of time and effort in an noncompetitive setting where they will be killed via lag or some other network-based gimmicks. Countless people have quit MO1 after realizing the poor state of pvp.

Just stop bringing up 360 blocking being fine its going to go already has been said to not be permanent but a placeholder. The fact that you think what you are saying to be true about 360 blocking speaks to your critical thinking skills, not in a positive way either. I could give you an essay on why 360 blocking is terrible mechanically and fundamentally but it would be wasted and unnecessary.

I think we hang out with different people. I´ve never played with someone from NA who quit because of latency issues. Sounds like a Kranesh-specific problem. SV has been adamant about having one world. Next continent might be on an NA server. That is why I think it´s pointless to even discuss this further. And yeah, MO was pretty dead for most of it´s lifespan. Latency issue weren´t the main problem though.

Combat in MO was shit for a lot of reasons. As a EU player getting hit in the back when looking someone in the face wasn´t fun. Glitchy teleportation shit happening in any big fight or remotely close to a nodeline. All of that has improved in MO2 ("streaming" aka nodelines are still bad though). So I´m quiet happy with that.

As for swing cancelation: In tight spaces a longer weapon will cancel more often than a shorter one. Some goes for other players. I actually like that you cannot swing a 1,8m sword when you do not have the room to do so. It requires you to both consider you opponent position and your surroundings - which adds to the skill ceiling.

I think most sandbox MMOs in history have not been "skillbased" at all. Let alone twitch based with FPV. And they all had full loot. Ultima online and EVE online come to mind. So I don´t see your point. Personally I think they should get the skill ceiling up as far as it goes with one-world and sandbox restrictions. I´m happy to come over to where-ever-the-fuck the next continent will be and get schooled on how high latency kills the game.

 

[Kevin]

I think we hang out with different people. I´ve never played with someone from NA who quit because of latency issues. Sounds like a Kranesh-specific problem. SV has been adamant about having one world. Next continent might be on an NA server. That is why I think it´s pointless to even discuss this further. And yeah, MO was pretty dead for most of it´s lifespan. Latency issue weren´t the main problem though.

Combat in MO was shit for a lot of reasons. As a EU player getting hit in the back when looking someone in the face wasn´t fun. Glitchy teleportation shit happening in any big fight or remotely close to a nodeline. All of that has improved in MO2 ("streaming" aka nodelines are still bad though). So I´m quiet happy with that.

As for swing cancelation: In tight spaces a longer weapon will cancel more often than a shorter one. Some goes for other players. I actually like that you cannot swing a 1,8m sword when you do not have the room to do so. It requires you to both consider you opponent position and your surroundings - which adds to the skill ceiling.

I think most sandbox MMOs in history have not been "skillbased" at all. Let alone twitch based with FPV. And they all had full loot. Ultima online and EVE online come to mind. So I don´t see your point. Personally I think they should get the skill ceiling up as far as it goes with one-world and sandbox restrictions. I´m happy to come over to where-ever-the-fuck the next continent will be and get schooled on how high latency kills the game.

You never played with someone who quit because of latency because they had already quit. The NA players that you played with either adapted or looked past the combat and made do with it. Most gamers will not tolerate having to do so especially in a game where your loot is on the line, the point being this game will revert back to its initial fanboys who look past bad mechanics and gameplay out of love for the concept of the game. After the initial release hype where people go to see if SV delivered they will be disappointed once again.

Also you all constantly bash me for comparing MO2 to other mmos because the "different" skills involved. But I will not be so lame to discredit your point on that let me explain why you cant compare the mmos you mentioned. Eve is knowledge-based pvp , it involves situations awareness ship knowledge and typically odds to win fights. Ultima online is considered skill based having players known to be leagues above others in terms of group pvp and solo pvp skill, it involves countering the other players spells or abilities with movements and spells, positioning, and in groups properly dumping precasted spells onto a focus target. I have played with some of the "best" like Calamity, Blitzkrieg, Crunch and many other great players in UO and have been recognized by them as a competent player. UO can be compared to MO in relation to the group fighting mechanics and dynamics of fights though mo lacks fields and brings melee that is action-based. In the combat of ping does make a difference at the high level of mage duels along with the ability to stay in a bordering hex as a "dexxer" or melee player. Though it doesn't affect the combat as heavily because most of the damage and skills are targeted there definitely is a difference. Movement speed is affected by ping in UO which was and still is a major problem for some players. In mo2 the ping will be even more detrimental to skillful and rewarding play from better players.

 

[Eldrath]

You never played with someone who quit because of latency because they had already quit. The NA players that you played with either adapted or looked past the combat and made do with it. Most gamers will not tolerate having to do so especially in a game where your loot is on the line, the point being this game will revert back to its initial fanboys who look past bad mechanics and gameplay out of love for the concept of the game. After the initial release hype where people go to see if SV delivered they will be disappointed once again.

Also you all constantly bash me for comparing MO2 to other mmos because the "different" skills involved. But I will not be so lame to discredit your point on that let me explain why you cant compare the mmos you mentioned. Eve is knowledge-based pvp , it involves situations awareness ship knowledge and typically odds to win fights. Ultima online is considered skill based having players known to be leagues above others in terms of group pvp and solo pvp skill, it involves countering the other players spells or abilities with movements and spells, positioning, and in groups properly dumping precasted spells onto a focus target. I have played with some of the "best" like Calamity, Blitzkrieg, Crunch and many other great players in UO and have been recognized by them as a competent player. UO can be compared to MO in relation to the group fighting mechanics and dynamics of fights though mo lacks fields and brings melee that is action-based. In the combat of ping does make a difference at the high level of mage duels along with the ability to stay in a bordering hex as a melee player. Though it doesn't affect the combat as heavily because most of the damage and skills are targeted there definitely is a difference. Movement speed is affected by ping in UO which was and still is a major problem for some players. In mo2 the ping will be even more detrimental to skillful and rewarding play from better players.

Well, that makes what you´re saying an assumption. Honestly MO1 gave you so many reasons to quit that weren´t ping related (UI, bugs, graphics, tutorial, thieving, griefing (getting one-hit killed - so no latency issue there, bugs, missing content, no explanation for anything "You can not do this right now", exploits, bugs, rampant cheating, player-gms, failed mechanics like TC, bugs). I wonder how many NA players actually got past all those and then realized "Oh shit, I´ll have to play a certain way to be good at this game - I quit".

If SV delivers on like ... half of those issues this could be a viable game. The reason I´m here is because I hope that´s gonna happen - not because I "believe". There is a good reason why I quit playing MO a few years back.

Yes, ping has an influence in any game that is not turn-based. EVE online has to create "time-bubbles" to handle big player loads. Yet both those games thrived. UO in an era with modems. That why I don´t think an NA server is necessary for MO2s survival. Depending on initial numbers it might actually be detrimental by splitting the population. Anyway, I think this argument is getting stale.

In the end we both (all) want a similar thing. The longer this thread gets the least likely it is any dev will read it.

 

[WesleySnipes]

Yes, ping has an influence in any game that is not turn-based. EVE online has to create "time-bubbles" to handle big player loads. Yet both those games thrived. UO in an era with modems. That why I don´t think an NA server is necessary for MO2s survival. Depending on initial numbers it might actually be detrimental by splitting the population. Anyway, I think this argument is getting stale.

In the end we both (all) want a similar thing. The longer this thread gets the least likely it is any dev will read it.

Basically you're saying mediocrity when it comes to performance / latency is okay. We should settle for mediocrity. If this game was turned based / tab targeted I doubt you'd hear any complaints about the latency. Since the game is directional combat and relies on your client being "up to date" as fast as possible, latency is not an issue that can be over looked.

Just because people might leave because of other reasons (UI, bugs, etc, whatever) doesn't mean latency wouldn't be a leading cause for people to leave once they got past that barrier of entry (the other stuff you listed). When people typically quit the game they won't tell you why. They're just gone and the chances of getting them back are slim. First impressions matter.

Anyone playing from the west coast is going to have a bad time playing on mo2 if it's based in EU. The player shouldn't have to fight against the inadequacy of the game,

 

[Slammington Unchained]

Basically you're saying mediocrity when it comes to performance / latency is okay. We should settle for mediocrity. If this game was turned based / tab targeted I doubt you'd hear any complaints about the latency. Since the game is directional combat and relies on your client being "up to date" as fast as possible, latency is not an issue that can be over looked.

Just because people might leave because of other reasons (UI, bugs, etc, whatever) doesn't mean latency wouldn't be a leading cause for people to leave once they got past that barrier of entry (the other stuff you listed). When people typically quit the game they won't tell you why. They're just gone and the chances of getting them back are slim. First impressions matter.

Anyone playing from the west coast is going to have a bad time playing on mo2 if it's based in EU. The player shouldn't have to fight against the inadequacy of the game,

Here's the thing, people on the west coast barely have the right to own guns; what makes you think they also should have the right to good ping?

 

[Teknique]

Here's the thing, people on the west coast barely have the right to own guns; what makes you think they also should have the right to good ping?

I didn't know what it was going to be, but I knew I was gonna like it.

 

[Eldrath]

Basically you're saying mediocrity when it comes to performance / latency is okay. We should settle for mediocrity. If this game was turned based / tab targeted I doubt you'd hear any complaints about the latency. Since the game is directional combat and relies on your client being "up to date" as fast as possible, latency is not an issue that can be over looked.

Just because people might leave because of other reasons (UI, bugs, etc, whatever) doesn't mean latency wouldn't be a leading cause for people to leave once they got past that barrier of entry (the other stuff you listed). When people typically quit the game they won't tell you why. They're just gone and the chances of getting them back are slim. First impressions matter.

Anyone playing from the west coast is going to have a bad time playing on mo2 if it's based in EU. The player shouldn't have to fight against the inadequacy of the game,

Yes, that is what I´m saying. I´m not a tech guy, but my basic understanding is that currently technology does not allow for people to have the same ping everywhere in the world. Man, a friend of mine wouldn´t move away from Frankfurt in Germany because of the ping he got there...

But yeah, I´d settle for mediocrity in an MMO sandbox when it comes to melee duels to play with the rest of the world.

 

[WesleySnipes]

Yes, that is what I´m saying. I´m not a tech guy, but my basic understanding is that currently technology does not allow for people to have the same ping everywhere in the world. Man, a friend of mine wouldn´t move away from Frankfurt in Germany because of the ping he got there...

But yeah, I´d settle for mediocrity in an MMO sandbox when it comes to melee duels to play with the rest of the world.

I feel like if this wasn't a "hard core" pvp game, with full loot , asset destruction, etc people might be tolerant. However since it IS a game with all those aforementioned things AND a box price AND a subscription fee, the chances of people tolerating shitty latency / ping is probably very slim. Someone from the west coast or some where else know they'll never truly be able to reach the highest echelons of the skill ceiling because they're fighting with a significant handicap is enough of a discouraging factor.

"Good enough" is not really good enough.

 

[Kevin]

Yes, that is what I´m saying. I´m not a tech guy, but my basic understanding is that currently technology does not allow for people to have the same ping everywhere in the world. Man, a friend of mine wouldn´t move away from Frankfurt in Germany because of the ping he got there...

But yeah, I´d settle for mediocrity in an MMO sandbox when it comes to melee duels to play with the rest of the world.

Exactly and starvault is not going to revolutionize the speed of light or network infrastructure the best solution is a middle ground with servers each region giving competitive levels of ping to everyone, not 200 ping for you 20 for you. A central Chicago or Texas server will give everyone <80 ping.

 

[bbihah]

NA does deserve its own server, but the issue is if the game will have a big enough sustained population to keep both servers filled enough. I don't see it happening from the get go, but If they came out tomorrow and said that was what they want to do right away and it'll delay release by X months, then im all for it.

A situation like how MO1 is right now with their continents but one of the continents being hosted in NA and one in the EU and being able to physically travel between them would be a pretty good compromise where it A) lets you play on your own timezone B) Lets you have good ping if you want it C) lets you crossover to play with your friends from across the Atlantic(or attack your frenemies) and D) less risky for leaving one of the servers empty economy-wise at least, since the economy will sort of be interlinked and it will encourage trade in many ways. Especially if its designed with travelling in mind and has resources that are easier to get from PVE in one continent than the other.

 

[Deleted member 94]

Hey so I deleted some posts using Asperger's in different forms to try and use them as an action word. Don't do that. K thanks.

 

[Kanye West]

Hey so I deleted some posts using Asperger's in different forms to try and use them as an action word. Don't do that. K thanks.

Thank you for that. The beta forums need a positive, non-negative, and non trolling place for discussion.

 

[bbihah]

Thank you for that. The beta forums need a positive, non-negative, and non trolling place for discussion.

Removing a part of a discussion that used a word in a way that its currently not defined and that is normally defined as offensive only when used against another person is not keeping the forums postive/non-negative, its attacking the basis on which language is based on. Also, the other individuals in the discussion on the other hand attacking the argument by trying to have the post removed by attacking a single word used out of context and trying to twist it into meaning something it was not meant to is one step worse than ad hominem attacks.


Also it gets quite apparent the current lead moderator does not respect anyone, even less himself. Since he is willingly breaking the rules he has announced himself.

IV(a). Do not discuss moderation action of the staff.

So this < post as well as yours is breaking the forum rules.
Doubt any action will be taken by the greenhorn.

 

[Deleted member 94]

Let's just get the post back to it's topic. Sound good?

 

[Najwalaylah]

Addressing your feedback about other people's feedback, which was confusedly inserted into otherwise on-topic opinions of yours about combat:

It is confusing to me that we are in a combat alpha and there are posts about female physics instead of actual gameplay improvements on the core mechanics of the game.

Those posts came because Star Vault, on its own recognisance and through a Tweet*, introduced dumbass physics for female character models that didn't fit, and @Kavu (who sas not alone in his observations) pointed out how silly, dumbassed, and wrong they looked. That's what experienced, helpful, and useful critics of Star Vault have learned to do: point this stuff out whenever SV brings it forth. The bad timing is not the observers' fault. It's up to the Devs to not break something long before the time comes when it should, rationally, be discussed and fixed. We know from the past that despite what should be the developers' priorities, the best thing to do is to point out these little gaffes early and often, as SV makes them. If this necessity discommodes you, so be it.

The functionality and use of these mechanics in PVP should be the only thing that matters.

Quite right, too.

*Tweets, though apparently useful for governing the United States of America by fiat, are no substitute for communicating new game developments on the game's own forums. ​

Star Vault, please take note and stick to one thing until it's done. You have one job. To finalise. At a time.​

Potential players, practice patience when Star Vault gets ahead of itself and prompts comments that wouldn't ordinarily (as in, in the proper order) be called for, yet. Have patience with the comments & the commenters. They are not unnecessary or wrong just because the timing is weird.​

Perhaps unfortunately, there are never going to be separate servers for regions of the real world. It's not in Henrik's vision. He's made this really plain. Only he can prove that statement wrong.

Until then, some few folks will try to pretend that ping doesn't exist-- nevertheless, it will-- basically forever, despite any improvements. It might get somewhat better, but it won't disappear and must be taken into account.

For as long as you all are forced to play with people with high ping, I don't see an issue with 360 blocking. In fact, when is 360 blocking ever a detriment to anyone, in an actual fight, other than the people that want to use the fact that you can get behind people on your end, while the person you are doing it on is staring you in the face? Talking about 'low priorities', that would seem to be one.

 

[Slammington Unchained]

Addressing your feedback about other people's feedback, which was confusedly inserted into otherwise on-topic opinions of yours about combat:Those posts came because Star Vault, on its own recognisance and through a Tweet*, introduced dumbass physics for female character models that didn't fit, and @Kavu (who sas not alone in his observations) pointed out how silly, dumbassed, and wrong they looked. That's what experienced, helpful, and useful critics of Star Vault have learned to do: point this stuff out whenever SV brings it forth. The bad timing is not the observers' fault. It's up to the Devs to not break something long before the time comes when it should, rationally, be discussed and fixed. We know from the past that despite what should be the developers' priorities, the best thing to do is to point out these little gaffes early and often, as SV makes them. If this necessity discommodes you, so be it.Quite right, too.

*Tweets, though apparently useful for governing the United States of America by fiat, are no substitute for communicating new game developments on the game's own forums. ​

Star Vault, please take note and stick to one thing until it's done. You have one job. To finalise. At a time.​

Potential players, practice patience when Star Vault gets ahead of itself and prompts comments that wouldn't ordinarily (as in, in the proper order) be called for, yet. Have patience with the comments & the commenters. They are not unnecessary or wrong just because the timing is weird.​

Perhaps unfortunately, there are never going to be separate servers for regions of the real world. It's not in Henrik's vision. He's made this really plain. Only he can prove that statement wrong.

Until then, some few folks will try to pretend that ping doesn't exist-- nevertheless, it will-- basically forever, despite any improvements. It might get somewhat better, but it won't disappear and must be taken into account.

For as long as you all are forced to play with people with high ping, I don't see an issue with 360 blocking. In fact, when is 360 blocking ever a detriment to anyone, in an actual fight, other than the people that want to use the fact that you can get behind people on your end, while the person you are doing it on is staring you in the face? Talking about 'low priorities', that would seem to be one.

It is to my understanding that the person who you are responding/quoting to no longer has access to the forums. Some posts that were poorly worded had him lose forum privleges.

Regards,
Slammington Chained

 

[bbihah]

Talking about 'low priorities', that would seem to be one.

Are you saying 360 blocking is a good band aid so they can focus on more important issues with combat?
Or you mean that the entire thing underlying 360 is something that should be low priority?
I'm confused

Cause frankly, no one has even tried to convince me why 360 blocking is bad or brought an example when it has a detrimental effect on combat, more than the massive turtling we have, but then again getting hit in the back through your blocks is infinitely more detrimental to progress of developing combat. At this moment adding more depth to the combat to make blocking harder rather than taking steps back and constantly fighting the netcode seems more like a waste of time in my opinion.

Personally im still of the belief its a great band aid for the current situation of international players and should stay until combat gets deeper and the netcode can reliably handle a blocking arc.

 

[Rhias]

...
Cause frankly, no one has even tried to convince me why 360 blocking is bad
...

At ~7:07. People getting free parrys without even intending to parry that hit...