Can we buff fit/lean/skinny etc?

[Tashka]

Come on, who ever rolls anything less than stout these days? I mean, i have a lean veela but i simply like meme builds and it gives me a speed advantage over other veelas, but again, it only makes at least some sense on a veela and none at all on any other clade. Being lean vs stout you loose tons of hp, you loose armor weight, you loose damage bonus, you loose the ability to use better bows and maybe some weapons too, you even loose carry weight and what you get in return is a tiny increase in movement speed that you'll hardly even notice and being better with horses. Ok at really high dex values you also get a tiny increase on weakspot chance but it's still a meme on anything but daggers, and even with a dagger it's not a mechanics you can rely on in real combat anyway. Ah yes, you get a smaller hitbox but still not small enough to make up for loosing half of your hp when someone farts at you. Ok dex in general isn't THAT bad, you still need it at least above 80 if you aren't a wheelchair. It's the price you pay for getting more dex than your clade can get on stout is what makes dexterity not worth aiming for.

Maybe cut down on HP penalty for lower weight classes a bit? Like in half... at least? How is it fair that you get strength AND lots of hp for being stout but you loose both for anything less while only getting dex in return. It's not even realistic. A little more fat can't really stop an arrow and can't save your skull when it's hit by a 4kg hammer. A lot of fat maybe, though i doubt that. Still there isn't much fat on your head.

 

[Evelyn]

This would probably turn the lean Thursar build into something less meme and more closer to borderline OP. If anything, lighter weights should be giving a bigger INT bonus than they give right now but I am biased against fatmage so.

 

[[CTX] Contractor]

Have to agree, seems like anything lower then Fit is dramatically at a disadvantage for gains in places that aren't impactful.

In before someone says they play an assassin character with 130 HP and claims they weakspot every hit.

 

[ArcaneConsular]

I mean I play a skinny Oghmir mage. Not as good as fat but at least I can move around. Less hp but if I get hit and I'm not mounted I'm dead regardless so whatever

 

[Jatix]

yes please. I was so hype when they added the dynamic visuals for different weights and strengths. Too bad it means nothing because you dont really get to chose your weight. Theres just 1 correct weight per build. Which for almost every build, is called stout. Like even full khurite. Going lean is still noticeably slower than a stout veela, with similar hp. Might aswell be stout. and every other fighter build, is alreayd slower so no reason to be weaker so you can still be slow, when you can just commit to being strong. the extremely minimal speed gain isnt worth it on any build outside alvarin.

 

[Tzone]

Fit/lean/skinny need another buff, maybe give fit/lean +1 con. little bit more health, and some psy. Skinny some more Int and a lil more health.

these are the Min/Max for fighters
Fit/lean thursar
Stout/overweight Veela
Lean/Stout Ogh
I think its stout/fit khurites for the human fighter meta but humans are just garbage in comparison to all other fighters.

 

[pooternackle]

Buff bony to +20 int and I'll play it. Lean is fine, fit is fine. Skinny could be buffed too, but it's still viable for some hybrid sheevra mages. Bony, however, with its measly +10 int, -5 psyche, and +5 dex is complete trash when combined with the massive hp loss.

 

[Emdash]

yes please. I was so hype when they added the dynamic visuals for different weights and strengths. Too bad it means nothing because you dont really get to chose your weight. Theres just 1 correct weight per build. Which for almost every build, is called stout. Like even full khurite. Going lean is still noticeably slower than a stout veela, with similar hp. Might aswell be stout. and every other fighter build, is alreayd slower so no reason to be weaker so you can still be slow, when you can just commit to being strong. the extremely minimal speed gain isnt worth it on any build outside alvarin.

yea the dude that was hard fiending over my lean khur char model was probably surprised because he'd not seen it. lol. I do think as a roller of female characters lean is definitely the most fitting look. It's true that lean Khur has some disadvantages but being able to hit w/ a jade sword as hard as veela hits with a steel sword is pretty OP, you're still fast enough and way tankier than an elf. I ended up back on veela tho, but lean khur is not that bad. My duel wins v people who weren't dog shit came on a lean khurite. Lean Khur is def NICE but yea veela is just superfast cuz clades. But otoh you get all the human boniz for crafting.

I think Lean Thur and Lean ogh would not need to be buffed due to clades and esp (for ogh) massive CON, remem lean used to be -5 con iirc.
Lean veela, even tho it suffers from v low HP (in comparison) IS really fast, even tho not that much faster than a stout veela (perhaps they could fix that curve instead of buffing lean veela. Make it so that stout veela is more slow.) Fit veela is like no1 ever and it might be something if they did that. Cuz then fit veela would be like stout veela is now. But lean veela has its use if you are going to be basically doing wild shit. It's a meme, but it's a legit meme. It's just a big disadvantage in any space that isn't large and a very tough to win 1v1s (for me, at least, because I get rattled as I see my health getting chunked when I get hit.) But for an adventurer build, I think it's perfect. Even works for MA. If I started doing more cheezy shit like jump hits and jump evades, it might be even better. I haven't added that into my game... still working on adding in PARRY looool.

 

[Tashka]

yea the dude that was hard fiending over my lean khur char model was probably surprised because he'd not seen it. lol. I do think as a roller of female characters lean is definitely the most fitting look. It's true that lean Khur has some disadvantages but being able to hit w/ a jade sword as hard as veela hits with a steel sword is pretty OP, you're still fast enough and way tankier than an elf. I ended up back on veela tho, but lean khur is not that bad. My duel wins v people who weren't dog shit came on a lean khurite. Lean Khur is def NICE but yea veela is just superfast cuz clades. But otoh you get all the human boniz for crafting.

I think Lean Thur and Lean ogh would not need to be buffed due to clades and esp (for ogh) massive CON, remem lean used to be -5 con iirc.
Lean veela, even tho it suffers from v low HP (in comparison) IS really fast, even tho not that much faster than a stout veela (perhaps they could fix that curve instead of buffing lean veela. Make it so that stout veela is more slow.) Fit veela is like no1 ever and it might be something if they did that. Cuz then fit veela would be like stout veela is now. But lean veela has its use if you are going to be basically doing wild shit. It's a meme, but it's a legit meme. It's just a big disadvantage in any space that isn't large and a very tough to win 1v1s (for me, at least, because I get rattled as I see my health getting chunked when I get hit.) But for an adventurer build, I think it's perfect. Even works for MA. If I started doing more cheezy shit like jump hits and jump evades, it might be even better. I haven't added that into my game... still working on adding in PARRY looool.

I'm not sure what you mean by "lean khur is nice". It has less hp than stout veela, it's slower than stout veela, it can't combat leap, it can't use bows above 99 str, it has less attribute points than stout veela, basically it's only advantage is the damage bonus and anti-magic gifts (but laughable psyche). And it's worse than stout khurite in every aspect except a tiny increase in speed. 5 more speed can't help you if you still can't catch up on a stout veela. I mean sure it's not entirely gimped and you can win duels and such but people win duels naked with a worn sword.

 

[Belegar]

I'm not sure what you mean by "lean khur is nice". It has less hp than stout veela, it's slower than stout veela, it can't combat leap, it can't use bows above 99 str, it has less attribute points than stout veela, basically it's only advantage is the damage bonus and anti-magic gifts (but laughable psyche). And it's worse than stout khurite in every aspect except a tiny increase in speed. 5 more speed can't help you if you still can't catch up on a stout veela. I mean sure it's not entirely gimped and you can win duels and such but people win duels naked with a worn sword.

This is more to do with Alvarins being the clear meta clade now, than an issue with weight.

 

[Emdash]

it can't combat leap,

I mean nice like YOUR GRANDMA. Or nice like you're new used (new to me) car. I'm not Borat. Like you said it's viable. A lot of hum builds back in the day were not. Having same dex as stout veela and such less speed is sad, and I said in another thread I disliked the flat % gift and I believe it should scale either way from fit so lean gets a lil more and stout gets a little less.

It's not optimal. It's arguably less of a meme than Lean Veela if you actually want to fight for real. Lean char models don't look like lunch ladies. It's nice lol. It works. Now that you don't lose con (or was it just that you gained con w/ stout, or was it both? ) for lean, the spread of... 100 str, 115 dex, 114 con is borat NICE. It's just too bad w/ the same dex as an elf you can't speed like one, and you listed the one reason why I could not roll a lean khur primary. The combat leap is too important for a speed char. One might say if combat leap was not a thing, I might only have one acct (cuz y'know you can become stout if you ever tire of it, then you're 110 109(rip 1 at pt, but it's str or dex), 114.

My real fighter is gonna be a lean veela. 165 hp. haha. Squish on the hit too w/ 101 con. 114 con is tankiness comparably and you get like 180+ hp iirc.

You should try it instead of looking at numbers. It works. I don't take MO stuff as seriously as others because 1. I'm not good (yet!!) and 1b would be... I believe when I am good enough to say I'm good, such differences that you listed (except combat leap but that's apples to oranges) will not matter. and 2. I don't care that much. I like having a good looking char, tbh! Esp since this will be my crafting char. Was gonna roll a mutt, but looking at it, I think I can just do the 26 Khur.

Wish we had more hairstyles THO. And other such things.

Edit: oh and stam. I think you might be able to catch a stout veela cuuz stam. The extra stam is notable.

 

[Tashka]

This is more to do with Alvarins being the clear meta clade now, than an issue with weight.

There is an issue with weight though. Being slightly faster than the other guy doesn't overweight the other guy having a clear advantage in everything else.

Alvarin is only a meta because the speed advantage it has over other clades is so good due to gifts that it's actually worth it, and can actually help in combat. Imagine alvarins are gone in the next patch. Can 428 fit khurite speed offer ANY combat or any other advantage at all compared to stout khurite's 426 now? Maybe lean khurite's 432 is so much better that it's worth loosing 10 strength and 30 hp to have it?

Maybe we could replace alvarin's combat leap with something else and have combat jump penalty scale off DEX? Would give high dex something at least.

It's funny how the whole alvarin clade is basically a workaround for DEX being so dumb by the way. It doesn't offer enough speed to aim for it? Here speed buffs. Not enough weakspot chance increase? Here flat 5%. You have to sacrifice strength to have high dex? Tough luck but here free 20str for bows.

 

[Emdash]

Maybe we could replace alvarin's combat leap with something else and have combat jump penalty scale off DEX? Would give high dex something at least.

legit if they did that, the whole meta would change. I listed out all of the elf OP gifts and explained how I think they should scale w/ weight class, but I actually forgot combat leap which is one of the CRAZIEST GIFTS, cuz you RUN FASTER in combat. I'm pretty good at running in combat and putting my wep away at the right time and hopping over something, but it's still not the same as just doing it. The speed diff is def substantial, but it's not as substantial as combat leap.

Edit: two more interesting thoughts...

One: I think they should keep combat leap but make it mage only (that is empty hands), 1h stuff like dagger then would lower the leap, 2h stuff would lower it more substantially. I am for simple solutions, and that's not so simple, but it's workable ehhh?

Also, people talk about height for a better hit box, but I wonder... does lean give you a better hit box, too, or are hitboxes more or less the same when it comes to GIRTH?

Edit2: but yes, you will not see me arguing against lean buffs

 

[Rhias]

Have to agree, seems like anything lower then Fit is dramatically at a disadvantage for gains in places that aren't impactful.

In before someone says they play an assassin character with 130 HP and claims they weakspot every hit.

I actually enjoy playing lean characters (both Thursar and Alvarin) and they still got plently of life. The Thursar is 175+ HP.
But I would not drop below lean due to the con penalty.

 

[Runaljod]

I am also for mage centered bonuses being taken from fatter weight classes and loaded into lighter ones. Currently mages are drawn to playing fat builds because they offer the most mana and magic damage potential while also giving you more health. They could simply change Bulging to +5 INT +10 PSY and Obese to something like +10 INT +10-15 PSY. For Underweight maybe +10 INT +10 PSY with Skinny receiving +20 INT +20 PSY like current Obese. This would still give Fat builds a sturdier build with some additional Mana pool and smaller INT bonuses while making the more vunerable leaner builds offer the highest possible magic damage and mana pool. /discuss

 

[Tashka]

I am also for mage centered bonuses being taken from fatter weight classes and loaded into lighter ones. Currently mages are drawn to playing fat builds because they offer the most mana and magic damage potential while also giving you more health. They could simply change Bulging to +5 INT +10 PSY and Obese to something like +10 INT +10-15 PSY. For Underweight maybe +10 INT +10 PSY with Skinny receiving +20 INT +20 PSY like current Obese. This would still give Fat builds a sturdier build with some additional Mana pool and smaller INT bonuses while making the more vunerable leaner builds offer the highest possible magic damage and mana pool. /discuss

Dex mages are already preferred to fatmages. This would make them pretty OP.

 

[Runaljod]

Dex mages are already preferred to fatmages. This would make them pretty OP.

Fat dex mages*. Bulging Sheevra to be specific

 

[pooternackle]

Dex mages are already preferred to fatmages. This would make them pretty OP.

dex mages aren’t really mages, they are hybrids. Someone running around with 110 int puts out trash magic damage. They have narrow utility in certain pvp engagements, but most oftheir kills come from dagger spamming.

I disagree with the idea that underweight should be +10 and skinny +20 while nerfing fat bonuses (this would make them a bit op), but that same +20 obese mages get needs to be applied to bony. It would make bony an actual pure mage that prioritizes speed and avoidance over hp. Since bony alvarin can’t even hit 100 hp and other clades fall into 105-110 as bony, I can’t imagine a scenario where this would make the weight class overpowered.

 

[Fisher(Sath)]

the biggest problem with the weight classes is the fact that player speed is negligible in most cases. If you get into a melee scrap with some 140kg thursar in full steel plate in most cases you can never flee the fight as the difference in speed is completely negated each time you get hit. It wouldn't be such an issue if one hit from a thursar was not 50 to 60 percent more powerful than any fit, lean, or skinny melee attack in the game. It's not as big a difference for other races but the point I hope is not lost. Strength is exponentially more useful than dexterity at the moment, which is a shocker as dexterity in almost every game I have ever played has normally been the one over-saturated with bonuses.

If this part wasn't bad enough now introduce mounts! Yay!!! did you build a 130 dex mega skeletor dagger dude? Well, Fuck you buddy I got myself a lvl 2 horse and whacked an alt account for 4 hours to level my mounted combatant. You're not going anywhere.

The only true advantage fast foot characters have is to invest in survival and really abuse the crap out of swimming. That's my one tip for my boys. It's gamey, it's cheesy, but it keeps you alive if they don't have a mage.

 

[Mortalitas Immortalis]

If anything, lighter weights should be giving a bigger INT bonus than they give right now but I am biased against fatmage so.

Best post here. Play on the "paper mage" trope and make lower weights give Int instead of the highest weights. Make the heaviest hitting mages have to really risk their lives in return for power, but still able to keep a solid distance via speed.

To round it out, remove the Int bonus from high weights, give Obese more health than Bulging, and make weight gain above Stout purely a matter of a greater and greater health pool at the cost of Str/Con/Dex/Stam.

On Lean/Fit/Stout, I think their current balance is just fine. Further modification past the above would just lead to a different weight class replacing Stout as the standard, which just moves this thread from "Why can I only play Stout?" to "Why can I only play Fit/Lean/etc.?"

Better off just looking at why specific races aren't doing well/are doing too well and solving it at the source than trying to fix racial balance by changing things that impact all races. That just leads to most races being in the unusable bin like we had in Mortal Online (1).