Books too easy to obtain

[MolagAmur]

That is true.. No individual skill in the game currently, there wasn't much in MO1 either to be honest. But at least back then we didn't have videos and streamers telling every secret in game or websites with calculators and workbenches and step by step guides. There is no mystery in MO2 like there was in MO1. But in some ways that is good in many ways it is bad. But hey that is the age we live in. Screw player skill or individual exploration lets just have everything spoon fed to you.

I fully agree. The mystery and eeriness of the world was one of the things that made it so damn interesting to play. As much as the interactive map, youtube videos, and calculators suck...yeah its just the way it is. Me and some guildmates would spend literally hours and hours perfecting the optimal protection to weight hybrid set. When a new armor came out we would have to do it all over again. We loved it. Some of the best PvPers in the game wouldn't take the time to optimize sets like those. Now we have all the stats you need to know if you hover over the weapon or armor, which definitely makes it more accessible for people who just want to quickly put on the best stuff, but it removed a core part of theory crafting imo. I don't think things like that are good in MMO's like this. If its WoW or a game where numbers mean everything, then sure. MO2 boasts being a "mastercrafter" but there are literally zero crafting secrets. No sliders you need to adjust. Just throw in the mats and click craft. Anyway, I kinda went on a rant there.

I guess the point is...its not just MO2 that is hurt by these things. All MMO's are having a core part of them taken away from Youtube and oversimplification. You are having meta's made and mystery removed before games even launch now. Maybe I'm finally just one of those old dudes that is gonna start saying "back in my day" all the time.

When can we get an MMO where you have to sign an NDA?

 

[Tzone]

The grind for necro is now gold and time. Thats ok for us but it should have been more of a challenge. They made it super easy to get a note because most of the game is extremely bad. A grind of 50 bones is nothing. Killing a necro camp 50 times is nothing even with a 1 hour cool down. Then its followed by throwing gold and time into it which isnt hard.

Vs the necro book which is useless now except to save on gold and time. We spend 1000s of man hours in the dungeon, many of it in 12 hour shifts. We have people who gotten the troll title from killing the necro troll so much.

SV just made it all too easy. The over compensated for the .1% chance to get the rituals book. They should have made the PvP harder. Really no reason to go to the necro dungeon now for the ritual books. Needed to up the drop rate so that was the easier way to get the book and the notes were the more cancerous and time consuming way but still with a challenge. Like adding another necro boss out there that dropped the items for the notes along with the other fab necromancer. Instead of finding a random vendor to give his some super easy to get bones.

 

[Emdash]

I fully agree. The mystery and eeriness of the world was one of the things that made it so damn interesting to play. As much as the interactive map, youtube videos, and calculators suck...yeah its just the way it is. Me and some guildmates would spend literally hours and hours perfecting the optimal protection to weight hybrid set. When a new armor came out we would have to do it all over again. We loved it. Some of the best PvPers in the game wouldn't take the time to optimize sets like those. Now we have all the stats you need to know if you hover over the weapon or armor, which definitely makes it more accessible for people who just want to quickly put on the best stuff, but it removed a core part of theory crafting imo. I don't think things like that are good in MMO's like this. If its WoW or a game where numbers mean everything, then sure. MO2 boasts being a "mastercrafter" but there are literally zero crafting secrets. No sliders you need to adjust. Just throw in the mats and click craft. Anyway, I kinda went on a rant there.

I guess the point is...its not just MO2 that is hurt by these things. All MMO's are having a core part of them taken away from Youtube and oversimplification. You are having meta's made and mystery removed before games even launch now. Maybe I'm finally just one of those old dudes that is gonna start saying "back in my day" all the time.

When can we get an MMO where you have to sign an NDA?

It didn't really remove theory crafting. The theory is the same lol. The mats are different this time around. That new stuff will be put in is the eternal 'soon.' I spent a lot of time doing x and y in MO, too, yeah, it's different when you feel like you are doing something new, but even after it's not new, it's still good. Going to the site to calc out the dmg and everything is still theory crafting. It's actually more precise. Like when they came out with the new attribute point thing and everyone wanted to roll a human Hybrid, I think it was already known that TIN was gonna be the king and Thur-kal-sid(? thur khur sid?) was gonna become the new master race, esp since they redid dex curve.

All of those kinds of changes would make it all new again. We understand the MO world, ok, but it shouldn't be about getting the best mats from the best boss, it should be about knowing how to set up and supply stuff and how to craft. Like non max wt armor seems like dog shit, worthless. They could have added new layers to that, they didn't. Every set is a base modifier, in a way, and every mat is just a mat, so the more they add to the game, the better. There really isn't much. There are some minor differences. A lot of things are more samey. I think it would still be OK if they just made things interesting again. Make it so that you can have food modifiers for nourishment/other like you could for soph. Re-add hilt/shaft armor weight. Etc, etc. Then adjust!

It's all there, still. That's not why the game sucks.

 

[MolagAmur]

It didn't really remove theory crafting. The theory is the same lol. The mats are different this time around. That new stuff will be put in is the eternal 'soon.' I spent a lot of time doing x and y in MO, too, yeah, it's different when you feel like you are doing something new, but even after it's not new, it's still good. Going to the site to calc out the dmg and everything is still theory crafting. It's actually more precise. Like when they came out with the new attribute point thing and everyone wanted to roll a human Hybrid, I think it was already known that TIN was gonna be the king and Thur-kal-sid(? thur khur sid?) was gonna become the new master race, esp since they redid dex curve.

All of those kinds of changes would make it all new again. We understand the MO world, ok, but it shouldn't be about getting the best mats from the best boss, it should be about knowing how to set up and supply stuff and how to craft. Like non max wt armor seems like dog shit, worthless. They could have added new layers to that, they didn't. Every set is a base modifier, in a way, and every mat is just a mat, so the more they add to the game, the better. There really isn't much. There are some minor differences. A lot of things are more samey. I think it would still be OK if they just made things interesting again. Make it so that you can have food modifiers for nourishment/other like you could for soph. Re-add hilt/shaft armor weight. Etc, etc. Then adjust!

It's all there, still. That's not why the game sucks.

Maybe its late or im just dumb, but I feel like your reply didn't really have anything to do with what I said lol.

On another note though I do wanna say I think the big issue here is that everyone is fighting over the same content all the time because of how slowly new dungeons and such are added. Most people have everything they want from all the other dungeons already. If we were all dumped into the world with most of the planned dungeons and content and everyone was fighting for things all over the map at the same time it would be way better. If only we were still in beta and had a proper wipe/launch when there was more content in the game.

Oh well. Players will continue to flock like cockroaches and run 12 hour shifts on all the new content that is dropped lol.

 

[Emdash]

Maybe its late or im just dumb, but I feel like your reply didn't really have anything to do with what I said lol.

On another note though I do wanna say I think the big issue here is that everyone is fighting over the same content all the time because of how slowly new dungeons and such are added. Most people have everything they want from all the other dungeons already. If we were all dumped into the world with most of the planned dungeons and content and everyone was fighting for things all over the map at the same time it would be way better. If only we were still in beta and had a proper wipe/launch when there was more content in the game.

Oh well. Players will continue to flock like cockroaches and run 12 hour shifts on all the new content that is dropped lol.

haha, it was covering the 'it's all figured out' angle. But like I said that's not why the game sucks atm. Was just going thru history of changes and how everyone jumped on, even tho they had websites that gave them the data.

My PoV is good sandbox content should be 'world content,' not dungeon content. There should be lives for people who never go to dungeons. Not every fakn dude goes to slay the dragons, some people gotta do other things!

 

[MarshaHose]

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[seriousSam]

The grind for necro is now gold and time. Thats ok for us but it should have been more of a challenge. They made it super easy to get a note because most of the game is extremely bad. A grind of 50 bones is nothing. Killing a necro camp 50 times is nothing even with a 1 hour cool down. Then its followed by throwing gold and time into it which isnt hard.

Vs the necro book which is useless now except to save on gold and time. We spend 1000s of man hours in the dungeon, many of it in 12 hour shifts. We have people who gotten the troll title from killing the necro troll so much.

SV just made it all too easy. The over compensated for the .1% chance to get the rituals book. They should have made the PvP harder. Really no reason to go to the necro dungeon now for the ritual books. Needed to up the drop rate so that was the easier way to get the book and the notes were the more cancerous and time consuming way but still with a challenge. Like adding another necro boss out there that dropped the items for the notes along with the other fab necromancer. Instead of finding a random vendor to give his some super easy to get bones.

apparently you never came to the spot of necromancers and did not collect these fucking bones that you are talking such nonsense. People who have a real life in addition to mortal collected 50 bones for several weeks, fighting off other players who came to this spot every 5 minutes, turning their heads 360, rustling in the bushes in search of naked partisans with longbows. yeah, it's really much easier than blocking a bridge with 3-4 archers, and sitting near the boss and waiting for respawn while drinking tea and watching funny videos on YouTube. most likely you have never played solo, or at least in a small group of players, never played solo with a mage, never been to one of the three, karl, THREE necromancer spots in the open world. good lunch to you in front of the boss room, stay there with your biased opinion.

 

[poorconsumer]

Lmao we've been camping necro boss, literally living there, afking in between spawns, fighting off other groups etc for like two weeks and finally got ritualism book a day before the patch. And now ritualism is freely available to every instant gratification shitter.

I knew that they were planning to make it more obtainable, but i expected they'd buff the drop rate from zero point something to 1-2%.

this is why i don't really like MO2 in many cases...the fact a group can live at a boss and defend it stopping literally everyone from participating then parading it as if its a good thing, then complaining when their gate keeping bullshit finally gets addressed. I want to be able to hop in and play solo/duo and accomplish things without having to be gate kept and somehow my ability to play is irrelevant because i'm not afking with a group of people splitting loot so many ways its a waste of time to even be participating.

 

[Doom and Gloom]

this is why i don't really like MO2 in many cases...the fact a group can live at a boss and defend it stopping literally everyone from participating then parading it as if its a good thing, then complaining when their gate keeping bullshit finally gets addressed. I want to be able to hop in and play solo/duo and accomplish things without having to be gate kept and somehow my ability to play is irrelevant because i'm not afking with a group of people splitting loot so many ways its a waste of time to even be participating.

You put it so beautifully.

 

[Hodo]

this is why i don't really like MO2 in many cases...the fact a group can live at a boss and defend it stopping literally everyone from participating then parading it as if its a good thing, then complaining when their gate keeping bullshit finally gets addressed. I want to be able to hop in and play solo/duo and accomplish things without having to be gate kept and somehow my ability to play is irrelevant because i'm not afking with a group of people splitting loot so many ways its a waste of time to even be participating.

I think the first time the guild I was with successfully did the Minotaur King dungeon the split came out to 100g per person. To be frank, the 4 hours they spent doing that I could have easily doubled that with less effort solo. But hey it helped one of the guys in the guild get the spiritist book he needed. Out of the 20+ people who went.

 

[Tzone]

apparently you never came to the spot of necromancers and did not collect these fucking bones that you are talking such nonsense. People who have a real life in addition to mortal collected 50 bones for several weeks, fighting off other players who came to this spot every 5 minutes, turning their heads 360, rustling in the bushes in search of naked partisans with longbows. yeah, it's really much easier than blocking a bridge with 3-4 archers, and sitting near the boss and waiting for respawn while drinking tea and watching funny videos on YouTube. most likely you have never played solo, or at least in a small group of players, never played solo with a mage, never been to one of the three, karl, THREE necromancer spots in the open world. good lunch to you in front of the boss room, stay there with your biased opinion.

1 bone per necro, there are multiple necro camps and some of the camps have multiple necros. You can get 5 bones in a hour then log on and log back on to get five more. It shouldnt take you more then 3 days with bad luck to get 50 bones, or you just buy it with gold because its cheap because its so easy.

If it takes you weeks to get 50 bones thats a you problem not a everyone else problem.

 

[Silenko]

I don't know what's the issue to have things more attainable for everyone, some people can't dedicate hours to try and get the books they want, or they don't have a big enough guild to kill the bosses that drop the books they want. Should SV make them unable to get those items? Rely to their only option to farm gold and buy them overpriced from market?

If you let everyone get things easier, I'm not saying hand it to them for free, we all will have a more enjoyable experience.

I had to spend more than 8k Gold to buy the portal books because I couldn't expect to get them from drops; I understand some skills are meant to be gated behind bosses and hard content, what I don't understand is some of you being angry because you were able to farm the books with ease and then sell them overpriced while now they are easier to get.

You have to stop being so selfish and think that game will be more healthy if things are not that "hard" . Not everyone is in a zerg or a big guild that can afford to clear content on a regular basis, gating skills or other stuff behind a hard boss is understandable but you have to think also on the players that can't rely on those methods to get the stuff.

I'm not saying give stuff free or have a 100% drop chance, please understand me here, but the point of having just a handful of people or guilds farm x item and then sell it overpriced to the smaller counterparts isn't logic either.

 

[Rynnik]

I don't know what's the issue to have things more attainable for everyone, some people can't dedicate hours to try and get the books they want, or they don't have a big enough guild to kill the bosses that drop the books they want. Should SV make them unable to get those items? Rely to their only option to farm gold and buy them overpriced from market?

If you let everyone get things easier, I'm not saying hand it to them for free, we all will have a more enjoyable experience.

I had to spend more than 8k Gold to buy the portal books because I couldn't expect to get them from drops; I understand some skills are meant to be gated behind bosses and hard content, what I don't understand is some of you being angry because you were able to farm the books with ease and then sell them overpriced while now they are easier to get.

You have to stop being so selfish and think that game will be more healthy if things are not that "hard" . Not everyone is in a zerg or a big guild that can afford to clear content on a regular basis, gating skills or other stuff behind a hard boss is understandable but you have to think also on the players that can't rely on those methods to get the stuff.

I'm not saying give stuff free or have a 100% drop chance, please understand me here, but the point of having just a handful of people or guilds farm x item and then sell it overpriced to the smaller counterparts isn't logic either.

Congratulations! You win the most ‘inaccurate post ever posted on this forum’ award!

Have you ever thought about gameplay loops and how to keep sandbox players engaged and logging in? MMO devs do, all the time. It makes or has broken games like EVE online or Darkfall in the past.

If you don’t want people to play much give them full banks and all the ‘stuffs’. See what they log in for: an answer is along the lines of ongoing content someone else found and reported on discord and they swing by for the ‘fun’.

Sandbox games work due to the unpredicted moments that pop up when someone is grinding the content. It isn’t the mining or the pve or the house building itself that is the ‘fun’ it is the interactions that happen during those windows of activity that make the game worth playing. So sandbox design isn’t about making those fun moments, it is about making a rules ecosystem for those moments and then forcing people to be present for those moments to possibly happen. The moments themselves come from the players. They don’t come from the game - the fun comes from the players.

That’s it. That’s the difference between sandbox and theme park MMOs. Making content easier and accessible is the number one way a dev working for SV can shoot themselves in the foot and make the game less fun overall despite what players think they want. If the game wants to last for ever then the inputs and outputs, faucets and resource churn have to be in a very very sensitive balance. It’s very important.

You post demonstrated that maybe you have never thought of this before but regardless would be the quickest way to kill MO2 forever.

 

[Silenko]

Congratulations! You win the most ‘inaccurate post ever posted on this forum’ award!

Have you ever thought about gameplay loops and how to keep sandbox players engaged and logging in? MMO devs do, all the time. It makes or has broken games like EVE online or Darkfall in the past.

If you don’t want people to play much give them full banks and all the ‘stuffs’. See what they log in for: an answer is along the lines of ongoing content someone else found and reported on discord and they swing by for the ‘fun’.

Sandbox games work due to the unpredicted moments that pop up when someone is grinding the content. It isn’t the mining or the pve or the house building itself that is the ‘fun’ it is the interactions that happen during those windows of activity that make the game worth playing. So sandbox design isn’t about making those fun moments, it is about making a rules ecosystem for those moments and then forcing people to be present for those moments to possibly happen. The moments themselves come from the players. They don’t come from the game - the fun comes from the players.

That’s it. That’s the difference between sandbox and theme park MMOs. Making content easier and accessible is the number one way a dev working for SV can shoot themselves in the foot and make the game less fun overall despite what players think they want. If the game wants to last for ever then the inputs and outputs, faucets and resource churn have to be in a very very sensitive balance. It’s very important.

You post demonstrated that maybe you have never thought of this before but regardless would be the quickest way to kill MO2 forever.

You have no clue or didn't understand my post at all

 

[Rynnik]

You have no clue or didn't understand my post at all

No, you

 

[Doom and Gloom]

Sandbox games work due to the unpredicted moments that pop up when someone is grinding the content. It isn’t the mining or the pve or the house building itself that is the ‘fun’ it is the interactions that happen during those windows of activity that make the game worth playing. So sandbox design isn’t about making those fun moments, it is about making a rules ecosystem for those moments and then forcing people to be present for those moments to possibly happen. The moments themselves come from the players. They don’t come from the game - the fun comes from the players.

This is not true, the content itself should already be enjoyable enough so anyone wants to do it, in any game, but especially in a sandbox which offers no story or general direction to the players. It is a major fault to rely on the player interactions to make a barren world "fun", that is what we have now and it shows. When there is nothing interesting to do, then another player doing that boring stuff with you doesn't make it that much more fun, and what is there that is unpredictable? When someone doesn't try to kill you I guess? Sure SV is great at designing time-waster content to keep people who have already sunk a lot of time into the game playing, but that doesn't mean any new player wants to get into that, and even the older players will get bored one day.

There are many "sandbox" games which don't rely on player interaction at all, you can make single player sandbox games too, so that would be quite impossible in any case hah. Imagine Terraria or Minecraft, you can enjoy those games by yourself, because there are cool things to do and explore, and the process of that is not an awful drag. Sure having ppl with you can further enhance the experience by a lot, but if the experience would be shitty on its own, no amount of people could make it that great.

This is different to for example role playing games where people imagine the world and can do whatever the hell they want with no rules set by others, in an MMO, there are rules and limitations so you cannot just start flying if you like or find that cool item which gives you a skill that does not exist in the game. This is a very SV apologetic response and shows clearly what you THINK sandbox games should be without really considering what is good or lasting design. It's weird to think that a game shouldn't be awesome to play on its own AND you can have these unpredictable interactions with other people.

 

[Rynnik]

This is not true, the content itself should already be enjoyable enough so anyone wants to do it, in any game, but especially in a sandbox which offers no story or general direction to the players. It is a major fault to rely on the player interactions to make a barren world "fun", that is what we have now and it shows. When there is nothing interesting to do, then another player doing that boring stuff with you doesn't make it that much more fun, and what is there that is unpredictable? When someone doesn't try to kill you I guess? Sure SV is great at designing time-waster content to keep people who have already sunk a lot of time into the game playing, but that doesn't mean any new player wants to get into that, and even the older players will get bored one day.

There are many "sandbox" games which don't rely on player interaction at all, you can make single player sandbox games too, so that would be quite impossible in any case hah. Imagine Terraria or Minecraft, you can enjoy those games by yourself, because there are cool things to do and explore, and the process of that is not an awful drag. Sure having ppl with you can further enhance the experience by a lot, but if the experience would be shitty on its own, no amount of people could make it that great.

This is different to for example role playing games where people imagine the world and can do whatever the hell they want with no rules set by others, in an MMO, there are rules and limitations so you cannot just start flying if you like or find that cool item which gives you a skill that does not exist in the game. This is a very SV apologetic response and shows clearly what you THINK sandbox games should be without really considering what is good or lasting design. It's weird to think that a game shouldn't be awesome to play on its own AND you can have these unpredictable interactions with other people.

Sandbox MMO.

You are correct that player interactions aren’t the key in single player games. you obviously didn’t read the post I was responding to directly though. It was talking about reducing time gating on content in favour of accessibility and making things more attainable.

Should the sand in a sandbox be fun? Of course. Do the rules need to be consistent and fair for everyone? 100%.

Is shortening the person hours particular content requires a good idea? Fuck no. And don’t forget if something takes 1 person an hour to do and 3 people can do it in 30 min that is an increase in the hours players spend, making content group centric is easy for devs.

I’ve read a few of your posts and it is nice that you took the pants off your head long enough to read mine but it couldn’t be more clear you have lots of beef and little understanding on what kills sandbox MMOs or allows them to grow for over a decade straight.