"Better Safe Than Sorry."

[Emdash]

This Henrik line resonates in my head. I think I will post this on Reddit, too. I think spamming de mofo is kinda waste, so I will leave this for awhile. Hopefully, someone will see it and someone will think about it. It's not a new idea, but...

The new Mortal Online slogan, for the most hardcore game on the market, is better safe than sorry. We do not want people getting ganked as they spec up (Haven,) we do not want people getting ganked around town or in the graveyard (guards,) and we especially do not want people getting sieged or, worse, NINJA sieged.

What are people playing for now? Soulbound items. New magic schools, capes, and trinkets. Think about that. They are grinding for those things. That is the life of the average, non guild leader player.

Why is that wrong? You know, you can ninja build something. Why is it bad to ninja siege? Why is it bad to loot a house? Is the ideal to have these unsiegeable metropolises shitting up the map? Sure, people are going to play the game because it creates 'a world,' and it gives people something to do. However, if you're wondering why the game isn't as serious as Mortal Online 1, it's simple.

Human interaction is the most important part of a game like this. The most serious end result of that is pvp. People know people, people have egos, more people are drawn into that pvp. A large war can start from something as simple as someone getting ganked transporting goods, or someone ninja sieging a house. Someone has to take that L, sure, but that's what drives the game.

Even though I find a lot of the mechanics of MO boring at the moment, that core issue will continue to plague the game. It can't be better safe than sorry. That's not the way to get people into the game. People might get mad when they die, but it also leads them to be more invested. If you have 20,000 gold and someone sieges your house, you are gonna put that money + your charisma into getting the people back. If you have 20,000 gold now, you're like wtb a trinket. HMM. Just some thoughts.

That's why MO is bad, at its core. You can't protect people from game mechanics, just like, as I said, you can't add anti-zerg mechanics. It sucks to get zerged, but that's the game. Same with getting sieged or getting PK'd. Oh well, enjoy!

 

[grendel]

You can hire mercenaries to fight for you

 

[Teknique]

Yeah its pretty silly to make a game with rules, but then make rules to try and completely negate those other rules. Mitigate maybe, but thats not what SV has been doing.

 

[grilo]

honest opinion... i dont think il sub... i can see mysself watching youtube videos on how to make a videogame faster then actually playing mo2... i knew unreal5 was not gona make any diference... and i was right, i still tried the game, but all the mystery and visual storytelling from mo1 is gone and that was the only thing i enjoied in mortal... gl hf, oh and maybe some people dont realize it, but you can medieval pvp in a lot of games, just saying cause everyone seems so fixed on it... even tho it was never my only goal for a "massive multiplayer online role playing game"...

 

[manure]

Yes.
As I said in some other posts, they changed the core of the game by adding infinite guards everywhere.

Unfortunately the game sucks nowadays, just like any other MMO out there with their pathetic safe zones.

If this Mortal Online 2 we have today was announced back in november 2021, nobody would even play the Beta.

Now, on the contrary... if that Mortal Online 2 we had on february 2022 was announced today on the market, it would sell 10 thousand copies !

 

[Philocypher]

Ninja sieging sucks and shouldn't be a part of the game.

Please see my post for a simple and clean sieging system.

 

[finegamingconnoisseur]

The hardcore part of MO2 is still there, PvP and sieges haven't been eliminated from the game. It just requires more effort on the part of the side doing the sieging so that there is more chance of a fight with the defending side. PvPers now need to look for juicier targets than the masses of new arrivals who barely have any combat experience and are just sitting ducks for overpowered vets.

Ninja sieging in MO1 was a bad idea (and a bad investment for the owner) because all the attacking side needed to do was observe and see what time of day and day of week the defender would not be present to defend the structure. It led SV to implement the atrocious idea of NPC guards that effectively did the job for the guild and made it less incentivising for both sides to want to show up for a siege.

PvP in MO1 degenerated into what we saw at the Steam launch 2015 when it effectively drove the vast majority of new players away because they were all spawned at Morin Khur which was prime hunting ground for reds. SV implemented young player status as a stop-gap, but it didn't help much. Population never went higher than the mid-sub-1k after the initial peak of ~1k. Clearly, sending new players into the meat grinder wasn't a winning strategy, and most of the community could see it.

I've observed numerous times over the many years from fairly long feedback threads by the community that what we had in MO1 wasn't working and that a better solution was needed. Sieges had to be a massive undertaking and a project in itself that matched the owner's effort and planning in building it. Players needed to be eased into the game gradually, and not be thrown into the deep end as was the case in MO1.

Having said that, PvP and sieges from what I've seen is still happening and more interesting now. I don't think the game is devolving into a grind for capes, trinkets and whatnot. Yes, that element of PvE gameplay is there for PvE enthusiasts like myself who by the way all still have to face PvP every time they go hunting. But until the ability to craft capes and trinkets is implemented, making them drop on death would mean most people probably won't even bother getting them.

 

[Emdash]

The hardcore part of MO2 is still there, PvP and sieges haven't been eliminated from the game. It just requires more effort on the part of the side doing the sieging so that there is more chance of a fight with the defending side. PvPers now need to look for juicier targets than the masses of new arrivals who barely have any combat experience and are just sitting ducks for overpowered vets.

Ninja sieging in MO1 was a bad idea (and a bad investment for the owner) because all the attacking side needed to do was observe and see what time of day and day of week the defender would not be present to defend the structure. It led SV to implement the atrocious idea of NPC guards that effectively did the job for the guild and made it less incentivising for both sides to want to show up for a siege.

PvP in MO1 degenerated into what we saw at the Steam launch 2015 when it effectively drove the vast majority of new players away because they were all spawned at Morin Khur which was prime hunting ground for reds. SV implemented young player status as a stop-gap, but it didn't help much. Population never went higher than the mid-sub-1k after the initial peak of ~1k. Clearly, sending new players into the meat grinder wasn't a winning strategy, and most of the community could see it.

I've observed numerous times over the many years from fairly long feedback threads by the community that what we had in MO1 wasn't working and that a better solution was needed. Sieges had to be a massive undertaking and a project in itself that matched the owner's effort and planning in building it. Players needed to be eased into the game gradually, and not be thrown into the deep end as was the case in MO1.

Having said that, PvP and sieges from what I've seen is still happening and more interesting now. I don't think the game is devolving into a grind for capes, trinkets and whatnot. Yes, that element of PvE gameplay is there for PvE enthusiasts like myself who by the way all still have to face PvP every time they go hunting. But until the ability to craft capes and trinkets is implemented, making them drop on death would mean most people probably won't even bother getting them.

This deserves a response! I disagree on all points, and I will explain why. I've said it before, but I will say it again for this thread, cuz who knows, someone might see it and SV might wise up.

Number one, the ninja siege. As I said, are you forgetting the ninja build? If you are smart, you scout out the times in an area where it is least likely to be contested before you build. Now, it's like once you get it up, it's good. For some reason, sieging houses was deemed unacceptable, but back when, it was like uhh you better ask (guild who owns territory) cuz they would straight up pop your stuff off. I personally don't like living under people's wing, but I understand that's how it goes.

I only got ganked on a transport once in MO1-2 history and I got set up! They not only scouted me, but they had someone telling them when I was gonna do it. It was just a molva full of calspar, cuz I was about to quit and wanted to make some skadi weps. It's like Matt Damon said in Rounders, "I didn't get unlucky; I got outplayed." I let my guard down.

One cannot protect their assets at all times, but you'd think someone would be there to do something. If you think stuff should just sit there, invulnerable, I disagree. I wouldn't hate siege windows, but what about build windows? I think it's fair, but maybe some of the HP / mechanics were off, dunno.

Number two, Steam release. You realize they put all of these people in RPK's backyard. That's number 1 lul, and number 2 lul was by 2015 the game was basically dead and there were all of these people who were so mad that they were like nah this game isn't gonna be revitalized by this, and they put in A LOT of effort. Don't underestimate the effort it takes to camp new players out of the game for weeks. That energy could have been redirected. It was obviously very personal. It wasn't something that would happen regardless. They didn't even have any guards there at first lol. So, yeah, it does seem like MO2 is SV's response to steam release: Haven, way more guards... but does it make the game better? Are there really that more people playing MO2? haha. I know I wasn't on steam with MO1, so if their counter was reading 1000~ I bet it was around 1500, too.

If you think of how much more polished MO2 is, there was a time before the server was moved, the small difference in core player base ( look at the steam chart, notice how the number doesn't go over 1500 anymore. That means it's THE SAME PEOPLE, more than likely) is proof they made a huge mistake in their design philosophy (and people are on free sub still!) Back then, there were also more competing MMOs that were more fresh. Now, there is nothing.

Keep in mind even after all of these changes, you wouldn't know it by steam reviews, you still see people saying they can't leave town without getting killed. Maybe not now that they have "Safe zones... like Albion!"

I'm gonna play Black Desert and mess around w/ old friends, haha, that's how I feel.

Peace tho, and I do appreciate the response. I like ya. I just wholeheartedly disagree. You gotta trust me. This stuff could have been added 'in the end,' but the fact they didn't give it a try as Mo2 to see if it was the jank game instead of the "pking / ninja siege," is very sad.

And dood @ ninja siege is bad. I read your thread. I read basically all the threads when I am here. I have nothing to say about that. I don't disagree or agree. It's just like OK, I see your idea.


cya guys in some months or sooner if the game fixes!! It's gonna be AWESOME and me and @oykd gonna come back, with our backs together, fighting people on either side!! loool. YEAHHH. Nah, but enjoy whatever this will become.... I hope some day I can enjoy it, too.

 

[oykd]

cya guys in some months or sooner if the game fixes!! It's gonna be AWESOME and me and @oykd gonna come back, with our backs together, fighting people on either side!! loool. YEAHHH. Nah, but enjoy whatever this will become.... I hope some day I can enjoy it, too.

who says im coming back to this casual game ? dont speak for me man ! if i came back to this game i woudnt play with you bro ! so stop it.

 

[Philocypher]

And dood @ ninja siege is bad. I read your thread. I read basically all the threads when I am here. I have nothing to say about that. I don't disagree or agree. It's just like OK, I see your idea.

well, appreciate it.

Regarding ninja sieging, you're totally wrong just so totally wrong. I've gotten that you liked it but I have no idea why. Play Rust, I guess?

An MMO ought to have a sieging mechanic that creates fights.

I think towers and barracks should be siegable at all times so maybe there's a play for ninja sieging?

 

[MomoWang]

Hi Dash

 

[Tzone]

The hardcore part of MO2 is still there, PvP and sieges haven't been eliminated from the game. It just requires more effort on the part of the side doing the sieging so that there is more chance of a fight with the defending side. PvPers now need to look for juicier targets than the masses of new arrivals who barely have any combat experience and are just sitting ducks for overpowered vets.

Ninja sieging in MO1 was a bad idea (and a bad investment for the owner) because all the attacking side needed to do was observe and see what time of day and day of week the defender would not be present to defend the structure. It led SV to implement the atrocious idea of NPC guards that effectively did the job for the guild and made it less incentivising for both sides to want to show up for a siege.

PvP in MO1 degenerated into what we saw at the Steam launch 2015 when it effectively drove the vast majority of new players away because they were all spawned at Morin Khur which was prime hunting ground for reds. SV implemented young player status as a stop-gap, but it didn't help much. Population never went higher than the mid-sub-1k after the initial peak of ~1k. Clearly, sending new players into the meat grinder wasn't a winning strategy, and most of the community could see it.

I've observed numerous times over the many years from fairly long feedback threads by the community that what we had in MO1 wasn't working and that a better solution was needed. Sieges had to be a massive undertaking and a project in itself that matched the owner's effort and planning in building it. Players needed to be eased into the game gradually, and not be thrown into the deep end as was the case in MO1.

Having said that, PvP and sieges from what I've seen is still happening and more interesting now. I don't think the game is devolving into a grind for capes, trinkets and whatnot. Yes, that element of PvE gameplay is there for PvE enthusiasts like myself who by the way all still have to face PvP every time they go hunting. But until the ability to craft capes and trinkets is implemented, making them drop on death would mean most people probably won't even bother getting them.

Seiging is carebear in this game, and rightnow is pretty impossible to do to some guilds that own keeps or are allied to keep owners.

If you blow up a dudes house you should get their stuff.
ninja seiging is terrible need windows.

 

[Emdash]

well, appreciate it.

Regarding ninja sieging, you're totally wrong just so totally wrong. I've gotten that you liked it but I have no idea why. Play Rust, I guess?

An MMO ought to have a sieging mechanic that creates fights.

I think towers and barracks should be siegable at all times so maybe there's a play for ninja sieging?

I return with tears in my eyes after peeking at being dissed by my bff oykd. But I'll comment on this:

I don't like it. I feel like you are not thinking of things long term. It will create fights. In MO1, Ninja siege created way more fights than anything haha. You see? It sets things off. There's, to me, no viable way to prevent it. Siege windows sort of make sense, but since the whole game is based on 'world server,' that's why having your politics right is so important. It makes things much more dynamic. It should take long enough to drop something of note that it's hard to ninja, but a house or whatever? haha. You should be able to wake up and have your house gone at any time. That's just how it goes.

If there was a 'ninja siege' in MO1, it was something people let happen / the game was just too dead. It's ideal to get a chance to defend your own stuff, but, again, there is no real way I can imagine to make that possible without neutering it. This 100% defense bonus shit is sodum. Same with stopping stuff like blue blocking or new players not being able to get a foothold. Just something you have to deal with, and understand it will all come out. You ninja siege something of a guild that can do it, they will go thru every asset you have. It will create fights.

It will create MORE fights than just a localized fight. It will create war because it's an insult to ninja siege. And if it doesn't, then people didn't really like you or care about you. Again, that's a thing that makes the world alive.

@MomoWang wutup, and yea that's it.

I can agree to disagree on it, though. I see your points, but I think in the end it's better to have things just be as they are and let people work it out in a sandbox. If things get really, really out of it, then I'd even prefer GM intervention to changing mechanics. That's how MO got ruined, players whined about GM favoritism (like they legit walled off MK one time; that's another aside, MO1 had so many more back paths... dunno why they made MO2 have so many choke points,) but then they introduced care bear mechanics that ruined the game.

If someone found a way to ninja siege things and it broke the game, I would address that with GMs. Otherwise, like I said, someone has to take the L, someone has to be the first person to get shot. Then shit gets real, and fighting DOES happen. haha.

Peace.

 

[Philocypher]

I return with tears in my eyes after peeking at being dissed by my bff oykd. But I'll comment on this:

I don't like it. I feel like you are not thinking of things long term. It will create fights. In MO1, Ninja siege created way more fights than anything haha. You see? It sets things off. There's, to me, no viable way to prevent it. Siege windows sort of make sense, but since the whole game is based on 'world server,' that's why having your politics right is so important. It makes things much more dynamic. It should take long enough to drop something of note that it's hard to ninja, but a house or whatever? haha. You should be able to wake up and have your house gone at any time. That's just how it goes.

If there was a 'ninja siege' in MO1, it was something people let happen / the game was just too dead. It's ideal to get a chance to defend your own stuff, but, again, there is no real way I can imagine to make that possible without neutering it. This 100% defense bonus shit is sodum. Same with stopping stuff like blue blocking or new players not being able to get a foothold. Just something you have to deal with, and understand it will all come out. You ninja siege something of a guild that can do it, they will go thru every asset you have. It will create fights.

It will create MORE fights than just a localized fight. It will create war because it's an insult to ninja siege. And if it doesn't, then people didn't really like you or care about you. Again, that's a thing that makes the world alive.

@MomoWang wutup, and yea that's it.

I can agree to disagree on it, though. I see your points, but I think in the end it's better to have things just be as they are and let people work it out in a sandbox. If things get really, really out of it, then I'd even prefer GM intervention to changing mechanics. That's how MO got ruined, players whined about GM favoritism (like they legit walled off MK one time; that's another aside, MO1 had so many more back paths... dunno why they made MO2 have so many choke points,) but then they introduced care bear mechanics that ruined the game.

If someone found a way to ninja siege things and it broke the game, I would address that with GMs. Otherwise, like I said, someone has to take the L, someone has to be the first person to get shot. Then shit gets real, and fighting DOES happen. haha.

Peace.

I think things like guard towers and other defensive infrastructure should be siegable by things that small raiding parties can bring along. Like war spikes in darkfall. In darkfall, there were expensive items called war spikes and you could throw them at enemy guard towers to knock them down. You'd just carry them in your bag and ninja that stuff down. To take a town, sometimes it was a week-long campaign of ninja asset damage to drain resources and weaken your enemy's defenses and then a full on siege to actually take the town.

We have a different world in mo2, with dynamic assets and not prefabbed locations like in DF. I think being able to ninja down someone's guard towers should be something raid parties should be able to do. You shouldn't have to drop a siege tent and carry boulders to mangs to do something like that. It shouldn't be cheap, though, obviously. It also shouldn't just poof the stuff. A guard tower should be disabled when it's at like 90%, so a few guys show up, build a battering ram or something real quick, slaughter the guards (they should have longer respawn times), and then knock the tower down to 90% to disable the guards. Then you can see how long it takes the defender to rebuild or rally a defense...

So, I see your point about ninja sieging and I think there's a play for it in a limited capacity, as I've described.

However, a true siege should be an event, something that brews until it culminates in a massive fight. That's why I like my idea for siege tents draining defense bonus in a radius.

The jungle supply tower whack-a-mole game wasn't even removed in the latest patch. If anything, it's become more prevalent because supply towers keep your defense bonus globally while supply storehouses only affect a 100m radius. Now we got storehouses squeezed in everywhere we can fit them, much much worse.

I think they should revert the supply storehouse change, keep that at a one-location thing. The defense bonus system is not great but I think it can work well with the systems that I've laid out.

I don't think TC is even in game at this point.

 

[Teknique]

I think things like guard towers and other defensive infrastructure should be siegable by things that small raiding parties can bring along. Like war spikes in darkfall. In darkfall, there were expensive items called war spikes and you could throw them at enemy guard towers to knock them down. You'd just carry them in your bag and ninja that stuff down. To take a town, sometimes it was a week-long campaign of ninja asset damage to drain resources and weaken your enemy's defenses and then a full on siege to actually take the town.

We have a different world in mo2, with dynamic assets and not prefabbed locations like in DF. I think being able to ninja down someone's guard towers should be something raid parties should be able to do. You shouldn't have to drop a siege tent and carry boulders to mangs to do something like that. It shouldn't be cheap, though, obviously. It also shouldn't just poof the stuff. A guard tower should be disabled when it's at like 90%, so a few guys show up, build a battering ram or something real quick, slaughter the guards (they should have longer respawn times), and then knock the tower down to 90% to disable the guards. Then you can see how long it takes the defender to rebuild or rally a defense...

So, I see your point about ninja sieging and I think there's a play for it in a limited capacity, as I've described.

However, a true siege should be an event, something that brews until it culminates in a massive fight. That's why I like my idea for siege tents draining defense bonus in a radius.

The jungle supply tower whack-a-mole game wasn't even removed in the latest patch. If anything, it's become more prevalent because supply towers keep your defense bonus globally while supply storehouses only affect a 100m radius. Now we got storehouses squeezed in everywhere we can fit them, much much worse.

I think they should revert the supply storehouse change, keep that at a one-location thing. The defense bonus system is not great but I think it can work well with the systems that I've laid out.

I don't think TC is even in game at this point.

Unpopular opinion but I was fine with ninja sieging in MO1. In a system where you lose all the work you put in, the player is going to find some other reason to cope then I got "ninja sieged". I really don't believe there's a scenario that exists where "player A" lost all their stuff, all their guild members, getting blasted on the forums etc, and they're fuckn happy.

Let Allah decide the victors, not Henrik.

 

[Philocypher]

Unpopular opinion but I was fine with ninja sieging in MO1. In a system where you lose all the work you put in, the player is going to find some other reason to cope then I got "ninja sieged". I really don't believe there's a scenario that exists where "player A" lost all their stuff, all their guild members, getting blasted on the forums etc, and they're fuckn happy.

Let Allah decide the victors, not Henrik.

say what you will about dannythenyan, no one can hold an L better than him.
Can you imagine losing that badly and still logging in everyday?
Have to bring that up on this thread, where we're talking about how you can't actually lose in mo2, he actually figured out how to lose.