Bandages - Community Discussion

[MolagAmur]

Healing was not fine by any stretch of the imagination. It was illogical and - depending what time frame you are looking at - gear based to a hilarious degree.

As soon as you base something on gear and make a "must-have" it will take away any ability to fight the zerg. Cause the zerg will always be able to restrict your access to a limited resource.

Healing should be sorted in the tiers I proposed with increasing cost and skill limit but never being exclusive enough for it being a bottleneck.

It should also be logical. Bandages are not. It´s not that hard to rename something and while keeping the underlying mechanic.

You talk about taking away the ability to fight zergs, but healing was the number one thing that allowed you to fight zergs in the first place. It sounds more like you have an issue with people wearing high-tier metal armors than anything(which only became meta because of dupes and mines).

Also well timed corrupts my friend....thats what counters healing. Remove purify pots if you want. We were just fine without them in the past.

 

[Rolufe]

I know this will have great opposition but here goes.

In MO1 there was simply a ridiculous amount of in combat healing, making players able to lose a fight 20 times in order to get lucky and win the last 21st fight in one duel or fight scenario.

In MO1 there was simply a ridiculous amount of in combat healing, making players able to lose a fight 20 times in order to get lucky and win the last 21st fight in one duel or fight scenario.

Also if there are bleeding dmg, then bandage should be the only option to stop the bleeding effect.
Bandage imo should also not heal for too much dmg, it should be viewed as the lowest tier of healing followed by magic and potions. Imo you should not be able to outheal resting with bandages in the long run.(Basically a guy resting from 1 hp to full heals to full faster than a guy bandaging from 1 hp to full).

I agree with this. If the bandages should heal at all it should be a very low over time heal, rather than a pop. I also like the idea of bandages being used against bleeds. Having bleeds also makes sense if you want blood on the ground. Making Potions heal over time and be easier to make would also be nice addition. Maybe have 2 types where one heals more over time and another that heals less but is more or less instant.

 

[Steinerr]

I've been fighting this battle basically on my own for the last several months, other than the occasional comment from Perro and maybe 1 or 2 individuals. I've just been called resistant to change, a troll, whiny baby, etc and much much more. I'm about depleted of energy. While legions of kids i've never even heard told me about all the awesome things that need to be in MO or were bad about MO.

Really need a call to arms from ACTUAL MO community here.

Beta zerg spotted friendlies approaching eta 1-2 months.

Hold out as long as you can soldier!

 

[MolagAmur]

What is this talk about bleeds? Have they said they are adding them? What purpose would they serve and what would apply them?

 

[Eldrath]

You talk about taking away the ability to fight zergs, but healing was the number one thing that allowed you to fight zergs in the first place. It sounds more like you have an issue with people wearing high-tier metal armors than anything(which only became meta because of dupes and mines).

Also well timed corrupts my friend....thats what counters healing. Remove purify pots if you want. We were just fine without them in the past.

No I´m talking about the combination of heavy armor and high tier potions. Or the combination of fully bred bullhorses with either a broken potion system or again high tier potions.

If you are fighting outnumbered corrupting someone in heavy armor to prevent him from using a bandage - 30 to 45 HP - and taking a pot that heals for 80-100 seems a littly bit far fetched. So the 10+ hits you just put in that target are taken away. If he was in medium armor he would be dead. If his potion wouldn´t be as powerful he would be out of combat for another 20 seconds or a mage would have to spend mana to heal him up.

Stacking healing like it was done in MO1 is not friendly to small groups at all. Bandages were good because they were easy to get and allowed for kiting. Both things important if a small group fights a zerg. Especially long term, where grinding resources does matter as much as winning individual fights.

BUT anyone who has ever applied a bandage in real life - or even most games - would think they were weird since they worked more like a potion or salve. Which is why they should be renamed while keeping the same mechanic.

BUT at the same time potion healing needs to be changed so it does not stack AGAIN with the very powerful "bandage" mechanic.

Healing is a unit. Discussing bandages on their own in terms of balance is garbage.

What is this talk about bleeds? Have they said they are adding them? What purpose would they serve and what would apply them?

People are daydreaming. But obviously they could come. Personally I would like to see them limited to PvE since DoT should be limited to magic IMO.

 

[Rolufe]

What is this talk about bleeds? Have they said they are adding them? What purpose would they serve and what would apply them?

Its mainly a thing some of us in the community was interested in as a alternative use for bandages. while either removing the heal or make it a lower over time heal. There was to much healing in MO1. This also made you never see a archer. You just saw fighters with bows against mounts or in defense against manganons. I only know of two guys in ID trying be archers and as far as i know Jangster is the only one being somewhat successful with it.

Alchemists will be more of a use when potions is the main way to heal. Making potions heal over time and faster/slower depending on receipt would also improve uses of bows and no one will be healing from 1 to 200 in a second except saved by a group of magic wielders. Magic will be the only instant heals. So teamwork will be the only thing to outright save a low hp player.

Edit: almost forgot having hundreds of arrows on a character dont make sense. Lowering healing will make bows and other ranged weapons more useful. Not requiring hundreds of arrows to have a impact on the fight. We all just waiting for fletching still...

 

[Tergeo]

I would like to remind everyone, that during these discussions and debates, to remain calm and constructive.

We all look forward to the game's development, let's keep it relatively positive. When threads such as these begin to derail in argument, the point can be lost.

 

[MolagAmur]

No I´m talking about the combination of heavy armor and high tier potions. Or the combination of fully bred bullhorses with either a broken potion system or again high tier potions.

If you are fighting outnumbered corrupting someone in heavy armor to prevent him from using a bandage - 30 to 45 HP - and taking a pot that heals for 80-100 seems a littly bit far fetched. So the 10+ hits you just put in that target are taken away. If he was in medium armor he would be dead. If his potion wouldn´t be as powerful he would be out of combat for another 20 seconds or a mage would have to spend mana to heal him up.

Stacking healing like it was done in MO1 is not friendly to small groups at all. Bandages were good because they were easy to get and allowed for kiting. Both things important if a small group fights a zerg. Especially long term, where grinding resources does matter as much as winning individual fights.

BUT anyone who has ever applied a bandage in real life - or even most games - would think they were weird since they worked more like a potion or salve. Which is why they should be renamed while keeping the same mechanic.

BUT at the same time potion healing needs to be changed so it does not stack AGAIN with the very powerful "bandage" mechanic.

Healing is a unit. Discussing bandages on their own in terms of balance is garbage.



People are daydreaming. But obviously they could come. Personally I would like to see them limited to PvE since DoT should be limited to magic IMO.

Alright so I agree with you. Change the name of bandages and make potions not as powerful. or make ALL potions heal over time. That way if you want a very expensive healing potion that heals you for 100hp? Thats fine, but its going to heal you by small amount each tick until you get to 100hp. Magic healing should stay bursty though.

I think everyone can agree that clicking one button and getting a fat heal while running was extremely frustrating. So yeah, make every potion be a heal over time and I'm fine with it.

 

[Teknique]

I would like to remind everyone, that during these discussions and debates, to remain calm and constructive.

We all look forward to the game's development, let's keep it relatively positive. When threads such as these begin to derail in argument, the point can be lost.

If you're referring to Eldrath, then it is quite alright. We've been watching HIS career with great interest.

 

[bbihah]

Well development has come far enough for me to really want to get invested and try to help out. I also told two others who are MO vets to start voicing their opinion more on these topics. Don't get me wrong...a new player can come in and give a great suggestion that some of us older players may be blind to. There is that, but then there are these people coming in with these off the wall suggestions that may have worked in their previous game they played and instantly want it added here without even knowing how combat works outside of 1v1 duels in combat alpha. And then there are the people who talk about realism(lmfao).

We all want the same thing here....the best the game can be. But in the 8 years on the MO forums how often did you hear about people complaining about in-combat healing being too high? Other than overpowered potions that were mass produced? Maybe a handful?

Wow, this must be the hidden out of game magic school seb was talking about. "Conjuring an argument out of where there is one" Interesting. We must take to the books!

 

[ThaBadMan]

You're right...this sounds terrible. Did you already sign up for a zerg guild? Why in the seven fucks are people wanting less combat healing? Youre making expensive potions even more meta. You're also talking about a drastic change in combat. And you're advocating for more numbers to have a significant advantage. Especially with the "zero heal if hit while waiting on a bandage". Youre essentially making mages overpowered and I can already see mounted mages sitting behind the fight whose only purpose is to heal. It would be nearly impossible to win outnumbered this way.

I hope SV ignores this entire thread if I'm being honest. The suggestions some of you guys are pulling out of your ass are dangerous...

Spots are hit.
You do know that if you get more in combat healing so does every single zergling in a blob.

Give a man 100 tries and he will suceed numerous times, give him ten he might get a couple but give him 1 try and most people wont suceed.

The less combat healing that is present the quicker bad players die and the more impact every single skilled player will have.
This is evident in MO1, early MO had little to no in combat healing and skilled groups could take on insane numbers. Remember we used to rely on resting like in MO2 at one point.

Increase in combat healing and you gain late MO1 where skill meant little to nothing.

Having no combat healing in a game that is full loot is horrible, just look at life is feudal. Not being able to come back from a tiny slip or a surprise attack when you can lose hours and hours of work is dumb as can be, especially when it only really doesn't hurt thick ass groups since they can just cycle out people easily. I guess I expected more from old players but.... dear lord man. If you can't finish someone off then that's your own fault, hitting a corrupt and fireball aint hard, i sling em miles away everyone turnin to dust.

Hit the spot yet again I see.
Lesser skilled players who cant stay alive except with extra lives always claim this as they need those extra lives in order to get kills and survive. I understand.

Anyway im not saying get rid of all healing. I mean we have bandages, resting, potions, mage healing, healing foods and passive regeneration.
Why not limit the amount of healing all around by giving each lower healing properties.

Make and promote active training to rise above the simple peasantry that deem their time spent training and honing skills less important than other time consuming activities.

Those skilled and believe in the value of training and honing skills should want as little room for error as possible in a skill based game.

It does. Everyone is getting their stupid little ideas in their head that they think sound cool and realistic without any regard to how it will actually effect the game itself. Its why I've said recently that I kinda dislike Devs even listening to their community on topics like this. You see some insane suggestions come up that just may plant a seed in their head to make some horrible change.


Bandages and healing were fine in MO1 guys. Let's focus on the shit that actually didn't work first yeah?

Which bandages and healing do you refer to ?

You do realize they have been changed over and over throughout MOs life ?

You talk about taking away the ability to fight zergs, but healing was the number one thing that allowed you to fight zergs in the first place. It sounds more like you have an issue with people wearing high-tier metal armors than anything(which only became meta because of dupes and mines).

Also well timed corrupts my friend....thats what counters healing. Remove purify pots if you want. We were just fine without them in the past.

Kinda very wrong there.
Zergs was easiest to fight earliest in MO history getting harder the more healing got put in/buffed during its life.

What is this talk about bleeds? Have they said they are adding them? What purpose would they serve and what would apply them?

They have talked about it since pre MO1 closed beta. Who knows, they did add piercing, blunt and slash so long ago.

 

[Teknique]

Spots are hit.
You do know that if you get more in combat healing so does every single zergling in a blob.

Give a man 100 tries and he will suceed numerous times, give him ten he might get a couple but give him 1 try and most people wont suceed.

The less combat healing that is present the quicker bad players die and the more impact every single skilled player will have.
This is evident in MO1, early MO had little to no in combat healing and skilled groups could take on insane numbers. Remember we used to rely on resting like in MO2 at one point.

Increase in combat healing and you gain late MO1 where skill meant little to nothing.


Hit the spot yet again I see.
Lesser skilled players who cant stay alive except with extra lives always claim this as they need those extra lives in order to get kills and survive. I understand.

Anyway im not saying get rid of all healing. I mean we have bandages, resting, potions, mage healing, healing foods and passive regeneration.
Why not limit the amount of healing all around by giving each lower healing properties.

Make and promote active training to rise above the simple peasantry that deem their time spent training and honing skills less important than other time consuming activities.

Those skilled and believe in the value of training and honing skills should want as little room for error as possible in a skill based game.


Which bandages and healing do you refer to ?

You do realize they have been changed over and over throughout MOs life ?

Kinda very wrong there.
Zergs was easiest to fight earliest in MO history getting harder the more healing got put in/buffed during its life.

They have talked about it since pre MO1 closed beta. Who knows, they did add piercing, blunt and slash so long ago.

What about the 1vX? When you get to a safe spot by using terrain or something and you bandy/heal/pot/stam up and then reset.

 

[Rulant]

Spots are hit.
You do know that if you get more in combat healing so does every single zergling in a blob.

Give a man 100 tries and he will suceed numerous times, give him ten he might get a couple but give him 1 try and most people wont suceed.

The less combat healing that is present the quicker bad players die and the more impact every single skilled player will have.
This is evident in MO1, early MO had little to no in combat healing and skilled groups could take on insane numbers. Remember we used to rely on resting like in MO2 at one point.

Increase in combat healing and you gain late MO1 where skill meant little to nothing.


Hit the spot yet again I see.
Lesser skilled players who cant stay alive except with extra lives always claim this as they need those extra lives in order to get kills and survive. I understand.

Anyway im not saying get rid of all healing. I mean we have bandages, resting, potions, mage healing, healing foods and passive regeneration.
Why not limit the amount of healing all around by giving each lower healing properties.

Make and promote active training to rise above the simple peasantry that deem their time spent training and honing skills less important than other time consuming activities.

Those skilled and believe in the value of training and honing skills should want as little room for error as possible in a skill based game.


Which bandages and healing do you refer to ?

You do realize they have been changed over and over throughout MOs life ?

Kinda very wrong there.
Zergs was easiest to fight earliest in MO history getting harder the more healing got put in/buffed during its life.

They have talked about it since pre MO1 closed beta. Who knows, they did add piercing, blunt and slash so long ago.

You've never been good at a pvp game then if you think no healing makes 1vX possible. If a group of MAs run up on you are you supposed to just be dunked? Get shot with 2 arrows be half health make it into mountains with people on your ass and what? Charge 2 or 3 full health guys with half health and no way to heal? Mortal isn't the game and will never be the game it was on release and living in the past of "what was possible" is idiotic compared to "what is possible". The game changed as all games do. And if you can't kill people who get low health then you need to get better at focused melee or your mages need to go back to school. Ain't nobody gettin away from my fireballs.

 

[MolagAmur]

Spots are hit.
You do know that if you get more in combat healing so does every single zergling in a blob.

Give a man 100 tries and he will suceed numerous times, give him ten he might get a couple but give him 1 try and most people wont suceed.

The less combat healing that is present the quicker bad players die and the more impact every single skilled player will have.
This is evident in MO1, early MO had little to no in combat healing and skilled groups could take on insane numbers. Remember we used to rely on resting like in MO2 at one point.

Increase in combat healing and you gain late MO1 where skill meant little to nothing.


Hit the spot yet again I see.
Lesser skilled players who cant stay alive except with extra lives always claim this as they need those extra lives in order to get kills and survive. I understand.

Anyway im not saying get rid of all healing. I mean we have bandages, resting, potions, mage healing, healing foods and passive regeneration.
Why not limit the amount of healing all around by giving each lower healing properties.

Make and promote active training to rise above the simple peasantry that deem their time spent training and honing skills less important than other time consuming activities.

Those skilled and believe in the value of training and honing skills should want as little room for error as possible in a skill based game.


Which bandages and healing do you refer to ?

You do realize they have been changed over and over throughout MOs life ?

Kinda very wrong there.
Zergs was easiest to fight earliest in MO history getting harder the more healing got put in/buffed during its life.

They have talked about it since pre MO1 closed beta. Who knows, they did add piercing, blunt and slash so long ago.

I don't even know where to begin. I feel like you're too far gone...

This game is FAR different than early MO days. So trying to base your argument on decade old content is just dumb. I have said what I would be fine with a few posts up.

As far as fighting zergs being easier in the early days...I agree with you. Old days the TTK was also a LOT lower which made it possible to quickly focus someone down. My point was about the nerf to bandages. It was the potions and higher TTK that made players be able to mindlessly fight and have multiple lives over and over. It was never bandages lmfao.

Again...nobody is talking about the pre-dawn days dude.

 

[Kelzyr]

I think there can be some middle ground on this:

Bandages: channeled increment heal (ex: 8 hp every 0.5s, 3s channel time) channeling stopped if damage is taken, 10s CD (or something)
Pots: chug that jug and get some HoT, amount healed changes based off quality of pot, 10-15s cd (or something)
Mage heals: mixture of burst heals (lesser/greater heal) and maybe some HoTs
Resting: lay down and close your eyes like before, none of this standing still silliness that exists now (I know its alpha I'm sure it'll change)
Food: why does it heal in the first place
Passive regen: why not

 

[Pierre]

Bandages should require channeling and heal over the course of 15-30 minutes. Giving quick heals in the middle of combat makes no sense as that is the role of potions.

 

[Neftan]

I appreciate a lot of the break downs and suggestions others have posted, and think many of them have valid points one way or another. Here is my take:

EDIT: DISCLAIMER - The numbers are simply placeholder estimates. They could be tweaked up, down or sideways. The concept is my suggestion, not the actual values.

Bandages:

• Bandages should be a channeled action, with an animation - as @PatWins suggested, among others.
• As the channel is happening, a small HoT should be applied on a specific interval that is attributed to the Anatomy skill.
• The channel would continue for a maximum amount of time, X.
• If damage is taken, a weapon is drawn, or the player uses the hotkey they have bandages set to again, the channel is cancelled.
  • Lets say the maximum channel is 10 seconds, and there is a small tick every second. This is an estimate.
  • Every tick would heal between 2-4 HP, resulting in a 20-40 total maximum heal. This is an estimate.
• At the end of the channel, regardless of how it is stopped (by damage, etc), a small burst heal would happen, signifying the tying off/finishing of the bandaging.
  • This small burst heal would be a small calculation, to do with how many small ticks of healing that happened.
  • Amount of Ticks x 2.5, for example.
    • This would mean a 5 second bandage would heal 10-20 HoT, and then give (5x2.5) 12 (rounded down) as a final burst heal.
    • A fully powered heal would be 20-40 (40) + 10x2.5 (25) for about 65 HP.
• A bottom line burst heal could be a good idea. Perhaps the final heal at the end of bandaging could not be lower than 10HP.
  • This would reward longer bandage timers, but be less punishing for those who are cut short.

This system would REWARD players who can sticky back, as you would cancel a fleeing players bandage quickly and shut down the healing.
This system would also REWARD players who are able to kite or hide well.
This system would REWARD players who are able to disrupt enemy groups.
This system would also REWARD players who are tight in formation.

I do not think it is fair to balance things around 1 versus X scenarios. General balance would be examined around group combat, and single combat. I feel as though it is up to the player to determine how to 1vX, not up to the developers.

 

[MolagAmur]

Bandages should require channeling and heal over the course of 15-30 minutes. Giving quick heals in the middle of combat makes no sense as that is the role of potions.

Literally nobody would use bandages. Nice.

PSA: Think about things before you post them.

I do not think it is fair to balance things around 1 versus X scenarios. General balance would be examined around group combat, and single combat. I feel as though it is up to the player to determine how to 1vX, not up to the developers.

I agree to that. However, you have to call things out when they blatantly hinder any chance of fighting outnumbered. Its not so much about 1vX as it is about smaller group vs larger group. At the end of the day player skill should always come into play...and giving or taking away tools to deal with bad situations is usually bad. Thats why nobody likes 1 shots or mounteds vs foot...because there is no counter-play. (not that this really applies to anything in this thread its really just more of a general statement)

 

[PatWins]

We could just make this simple.

For example, bandages are channeled healing 10 health per second over 5 seconds totaling up to 50 health. (values are placeholders)

Other than that there is no difference from MO1. My goal was to avoid having 0 visual indication that someone is bandaging and removing RNG completely. We don't even have to overcomplicate it with whether or not you're moving or standing still.

It's easier to start small and build on an idea than it is to start large and take things away.

 

[Pierre]

Literally nobody would use bandages. Nice.

PSA: Think about things before you post them.


I agree to that. However, you have to call things out when they blatantly hinder any chance of fighting outnumbered. Its not so much about 1vX as it is about smaller group vs larger group. At the end of the day player skill should always come into play...and giving or taking away tools to deal with bad situations is usually bad. Thats why nobody likes 1 shots or mounteds vs foot...because there is no counter-play. (not that this really applies to anything in this thread its really just more of a general statement)

Many games like Life is Feudal and Wurm have this same mechanic, except even harsher heal times. Why would no one use bandages when it is still a cheap way to heal albeit slower? If you want quicker heals, you can get potions.

If anything, this would create a higher demand for potions and make crafting thereof a trade competitive with weapon and armor crafting.

You need to stop thinking so shallow and broaden your horizons.