Balance for shields and armor suggestion

[Hodo]

Currently shields are just thrown on and have zero effect on your movement or armor weight. But is a shield not part of your armor? So would it not make sense to add the weight of shields to your armor weight. Change the name of "armor weight" to "Equipment Weight" .

So if you want to run around as a dex mage in ranger 2kg set of clothes... well guess what you aint hauling that 5kg shield with you.

You want to rock that 25str character with that 4kg max armor weight... better hit the gym bro and get stronger to carry that shield.

 

[Tashka]

Well i'd agree, it just breaks immersion when every mage is running with a shield. But then, they should

a) make sure someone wearing heavy armor can't outsprint someone wearing cloth, currently STR gives bonus to stamina and stamina regen penalty for wearing heavy armor is so small that you can spring for longer in full steel at max speed than a naked mage
b) remove the STR effect on chip damage: even if you max blocking and def stance, you'll still get chipped through parries without a shield if your STR is too low
c) since running is not an option for fat mages and you're taking away their only defense, there should be some forms of defensive magic. Teleports, stone skin etc.
d) oh and don't think that i only care about mages: shields should be affected by blocking endurance and have a lot less stamina drain. Because shields are rarely used by melees even now, and if they'll start to count towards total equipment weight they'll be completely forgotten.

Anyway according to Robmo they're rebalancing shields to have str requirement, so...

 

[GOOOOSE]

Well i'd agree, it just breaks immersion when every mage is running with a shield. But then, they should

a) make sure someone wearing heavy armor can't outsprint someone wearing cloth, currently STR gives bonus to stamina and stamina regen penalty for wearing heavy armor is so small that you can spring for longer in full steel at max speed than a naked mage
b) remove the STR effect on chip damage: even if you max blocking and def stance, you'll still get chipped through parries without a shield if your STR is too low
c) since running is not an option for fat mages and you're taking away their only defense, there should be some forms of defensive magic. Teleports, stone skin etc.
d) oh and don't think that i only care about mages: shields should be affected by blocking endurance and have a lot less stamina drain. Because shields are rarely used by melees even now, and if they'll start to count towards total equipment weight they'll be completely forgotten.

Anyway according to Robmo they're rebalancing shields to have str requirement, so...

They already have a system with horses where each kg of armor slows the horse down by X% and Stam by X%, just copy and paste onto player characters.

 

[Tashka]

They already have a system with horses where each kg of armor slows the horse down by X% and Stam by X%, just copy and paste onto player characters.

That would be terrible for game balance. Just make sprinting in heavy armor drain more stamina.

 

[Hodo]

That would be terrible for game balance. Just make sprinting in heavy armor drain more stamina.

Honestly if they doubled the stam drain on heavy armor it would probably solve more than it would break.

 

[Jatix]

While we are at it, they need to change armor weight a bit. It bugs me that animal mats barely even need heavy armor t, but then some races cant even wear full metal with 100 heavy armor t. And the better the mat the more it weighs. The weight gap between different mats shouldn't be so big. It makes it feel like better gear has a con which can make it not actually better. It doesnt take extra primaries to use a steel sword over flake. But on assorted builds you can find ways to ditch heavy armor t, and just risk less gear.

but I fully endorse shield weight mattering. Especially because it stacks with your armor that it hits. To my knowledge, to the game the arrow goes through your shield and bases the damage on what armor part it hit + shield mitigation. So its stupid that the shield has 0 effect on armor weight when it stacks with your armor.

 

[Tashka]

Btw i like that more than str requirements for shields. With STR requirement, low STR characters will be completely gatekeeped from using shields while high STR characters (basically any non-mage) would be getting access to max weight shields for free. With equipment weight a mage would be able to spend some points on armor training to get shields, and melees would have to choose between heavier armor or shields (which is why again shields would need a buff). More build diversity -> better game in general.

 

[Shadowmist]

The actual problem with shields is that weapon parries have been bugged for so long that people will freak out once they fix it; Weapons don't take ANY durability damage when you parry, but shields do. No only are shields defensive, they should soak dura damge from your weapon.
Once this is fixed weapon dura for non shield users is going to be way more important and not just all about dmg.

Once they fix that, they can start increasing low tier materials dmg closer to steel, but with worse durability.

 

[Kaemik]

The biggest issue with shields is they are free. Any build can run them 100% effectively with 0 primary point investment.

That's why I think it should be added to armor weight with a primary to reduce it's impact on armor weight by 100%. There is nothing wrong with mages using shields, but there is definitely something wrong with it being free.

That being said shields are by no means overpowered. I'd have them give a % of their protection to all parts of the body when held in the hand (NOT while on your back) and apply piercing protection at a higher %. This makes shields worth the investment and also makes them stronger vs. bows, spears, and daggers which is kind of appropriate as all those weapons were meta for certain builds BEFORE trinkets came out and buffed piercing more than any other damage type (Because piercing is inherently better than slashing/bludgeoning in that it can be archery+melee if you run a spear or polearm.)

 

[Kaemik]

Well i'd agree, it just breaks immersion when every mage is running with a shield.

Legit. None of the wizards I know IRL have any form of shield/armor at all.

I personally love the flavor of armor/shield combined with magic and there are plenty of examples in fantasy of characters who fit that profile. But yes it shouldn't be free. It should be a conscious character build choice with costs and benefits.

 

[Shadowmist]

If str requirments are coming we should be all good as long as the shields usage in the first place is worth anything.

I think blocking/parrying is flawed since no one will EVER block attacks; either you parry or you fail and get hit.
A much better system would be if holding a parry would turn into a block once the parry window is over, and that will block ALL directions and instead use the stats of the thing you block with, which means since weapons don't have defensive stats, blocking would never be a a thing you do with them and you would have to rely on parrying, whereas a shield bearer could go into full defense where they always take chip damage, but they can sustain damage without parrying.

 

[Kaemik]

If str requirments are coming we should be all good as long as the shields usage in the first place is worth anything.

Giving shields a STR Req the way weapons have them is actually a REALLY good idea. Right now anything smaller than the largest shield you can make is pointless. If the smallest shields had a STR req similar to a dagger and scaled up from there we might see more variety in shield meta.

 

[Tashka]

None of the wizards I know IRL have any form of shield/armor at all.

Come on shield is the last thing that comes to mind when you think of a typical fantasy wizard.

 

[Tashka]

Giving shields a STR Req the way weapons have them is actually a REALLY good idea.

It's a terrible idea. It's just a net buff to melee.

 

[Kaemik]

Come on shield is the last thing that comes to mind when you think of a typical fantasy wizard.

Sure but typical fantasy wizards aren't the only thing I think of when I think of magic wielders in a fantasy setting.

I also think of paladins, death knights, shamans, druids, battlemages, etc.

 

[Kaemik]

It's a terrible idea. It's just a net buff to melee.

Then buff mages in a way that isn't giving them the largest shields in the game for free. Like I don't know, a spell or two that can be cast while running or a spell that can be cast while wielding a weapon/parrying but not attacking.

This game needs to stop giving away so much crap for free like a single skill giving shortbows, assyms and longbows, free shields etc. Meanwhile, everyone needs to invest primaries in sprinting, blocking and combat maneuvering despite them being basic skills every non-ultra-niche builds needs at 100. It's like they throw darts at a board to determine if something will cost a primary or not.

 

[Hodo]

Sure but typical fantasy wizards aren't the only thing I think of when I think of magic wielders in a fantasy setting.

I also think of paladins, death knights, shamans, druids, battlemages, etc.

Paladins = Hybrids

Death Knights aka Dark Paladins = Hybrids

Shamans/Druids (one in the same) = Basically animalist mages or elementalist... not really in game yet.

Battlemage = Again.. basic mage hybrid.

I mean Elmenster basically the wizard or mage most people think of was based off of Gandalf the Grey/White... he didnt rock a shield. He used a hand and a half sword or known as a bastard sword and his staff or wand.

 

[Tashka]

Then buff mages in a way that isn't giving them the largest shields in the game for free. Like I don't know, a spell or two that can be cast while running or a spell that can be cast while wielding a weapon/parrying but not attacking.

This game needs to stop giving away so much crap for free like a single skill giving shortbows, assyms and longbows, free shields etc. Meanwhile, everyone needs to invest primaries in sprinting, blocking and combat maneuvering despite them being basic skills every non-ultra-niche builds needs at 100. It's like they throw darts at a board to determine if something will cost a primary or not.

Well melees would still get shields "for free". STR is almost universally maxed and not due to strength requirements of weapons (if this was the case people would be running 76-80 str, just enough for most weapons and shortbows). So again mages would be gated out of using shields while melees would get them for free.

I really like Hodo's version more. It allows for more variability in builds.

 

[Kaemik]

Right but hybrids in this game have to carefully manage armor weight just as much as a mage. There are some builds that just pile on the armor and give no craps but they're basically corrupt/purify only builds.

That's why I think a primary and a str req are the best way to manage it. Hybrids generally have decent strength. Hybrids are a bit primary strapped but could come up with the points if they really wanted a shield-based build.

I think if you simply add it to armor weight and call it a day my advice to people making builds beyond that point is "don't run a shield if you use magic." Which kills the many hybrid builds that should be able to use it.

Also, a battlemage isn't necessarily a hybrid. There are a lot of settings (D&D, elder scrolls etc.) where you see heavily armored mages with no melee and strong magic. I like that build being possible so long as it comes with drawbacks sufficient to not make it the only viable meta.

 

[Kaemik]

Well melees would still get shields "for free".

Maybe Ohgmir. Most melee builds don't have a ton of extra weight to work with if they're wearing a full set of steel. And I don't consider having multiple clades that increase your cap in a stat to be giving you something "for free".