Archery

bbihah

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Not to mention if a archer is sprinting after you shooting at you he'll most likely miss. String him along until he gets close. Then turn and fight, he'll be out of stam and easy for you to sticky. I experienced this a couple times in testing. An archer overplaying his hand is too common and is the main reason they die.
 

bbihah

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I like archery.

Bow crafting feels a bit lame though. Also fletchery.
I agree. I think Fletchery needs more tie in with the material system. Bow crafting might do well with material tweaks and adding bow tensioning in the crafting process to affect the crafting result, using different tools or tools of different materials, soaking the bow etc. But it might make an already steep initial learning curve a bit much for new players.
 

Rorry

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Have you all been in GK the last few days? Every non duel fight I have seen has several people with bows taking cheap shots.

In order for the combat system to function and stay diverse every part needs to have checks to keep it in balance, otherwise one part becomes OP and the whole system skews towards it.

The big check on melee is stamina, magic is unknown at this point, and archery doesn't have one yet.

In MO1 when they removed the check on archery bows proliferated, small scale pvp suffered, and many people who played the game primarily for that pvp drifted out of the game until SV fixed the problem. I am not trying to say that it was the biggest problem the combat system ever had, or the most unbalanced it ever was, but it was a problem.
 

bbihah

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Have you all been in GK the last few days? Every non duel fight I have seen has several people with bows taking cheap shots.

In order for the combat system to function and stay diverse every part needs to have checks to keep it in balance, otherwise one part becomes OP and the whole system skews towards it.

The big check on melee is stamina, magic is unknown at this point, and archery doesn't have one yet.

In MO1 when they removed the check on archery bows proliferated, small scale pvp suffered, and many people who played the game primarily for that pvp drifted out of the game until SV fixed the problem. I am not trying to say that it was the biggest problem the combat system ever had, or the most unbalanced it ever was, but it was a problem.
Wrong. The limit on melee combat efficiency is stamina and durability. The limit on magic is mainly mana and reagents and stamina is purely a mobility resource for them. The limit on bows is stamina, arrows and durability. And the collective long limit for all of these are hard hp, hard stam and hard mana.


The way you are talking, its as if you expect everyone to walk into melee range and mindlessly swing at each other. No parrying allowed, no tactics allowed, no teamwork allowed. If an archer can sit comfortably still and plink away without anyone punishing him for wasting all his stamina on firing his bow, do you really think the problem there is the archer, or the fact that he is being given the opportunity to literally do his role unchallenged?

An archer that has been firing for a while, especially while moving is an easy target for anyone that manages to get close with an even remotely 50-60% full stamina bar and a melee weapon. An archer that is standing still is an easy target for other archers.


You also talk as if you have never played the game and as if you have never used a bow? You do know they take stamina right? And the ones that actually hit for any kind of damage take a lot of stamina. And even then, the damage bows deal is not very good against armor.
 
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Kaemik

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The big check on melee is stamina, magic is unknown at this point, and archery...

Has heavy armor. Your damage is pretty damn trash against people in full steel.

It also has good footwork which I'd argue is currently TOO strong and makes it nearly impossible to hit people who do it well if they aren't prettymuch right in your face.

It also has shields and positioning.

Last time I went to GK there was one person "taking cheap shots" AKA actually using one of the parts of the game fully intended to be used. Me.
 

Rorry

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Wrong. The limit on melee combat efficiency is stamina and durability. The limit on magic is mainly mana and reagents and stamina is purely a mobility resource for them. The limit on bows is stamina, arrows and durability. And the collective long limit for all of these are hard hp, hard stam and hard mana.


The way you are talking, its as if you expect everyone to walk into melee range and mindlessly swing at each other. No parrying allowed, no tactics allowed, no teamwork allowed. If an archer can sit comfortably still and plink away without anyone punishing him for wasting all his stamina on firing his bow, do you really think the problem there is the archer, or the fact that he is being given the opportunity to literally do his role unchallenged?

An archer that has been firing for a while, especially while moving is an easy target for anyone that manages to get close with an even remotely 50-60% full stamina bar and a melee weapon. An archer that is standing still is an easy target for other archers.


You also talk as if you have never played the game and as if you have never used a bow? You do know they take stamina right? And the ones that actually hit for any kind of damage take a lot of stamina. And even then, the damage bows deal is not very good against armor.
Has heavy armor. Your damage is pretty damn trash against people in full steel.

It also has good footwork which I'd argue is currently TOO strong and makes it nearly impossible to hit people who do it well if they aren't prettymuch right in your face.

It also has shields and positioning.

Last time I went to GK there was one person "taking cheap shots" AKA actually using one of the parts of the game fully intended to be used. Me.


I was more talking about the checks within the design of the game. Number of arrows, reagents, and durability are less about the design because they are things players can affect.
I do want foot combat to be diverse.
Your example of an archer being allowed to go unchallenged ignores the fact that he can be firing from 20 meters away and would be able to fire several shots and still have plenty of time to switch to a melee weapon and be able to parry all while starting at full stamina because bows use so little stam that while you are standing still your stam bar completely refills before the animation finishes to where you can fire again.

My bow hits for 20's on steel and takes very very little stamina.
When the game is live, very few people will be wearing metal armor. Then arrows will be hitting for 40+, that is only five shots from a cheaply made weapon, 1 gold in MO1's very inflated economy, or 5 mountain spiders and 7 spongewood in non gold terms.

My point, at it's simplest, is that I think archery is a little out of balance and needs to be tweaked and that with the ai being how it is it is unlikely that SV will tweak it and that it will throw pvp out of balance once the game goes live.
 

Kaemik

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I can hit for 20s too. 20s aren't very impressive especially as infrequently as you will get them if your opponent knows how to move. Archery MAY be OP when we get magic in. If spells take long enough to cast I can certainly see them countering mages very hard. Right now in the melee meta it feels distinctly underpowered but can perform well if you train hard enough to get your accuracy up (You know, training and getting skill) and use good kiting/positioning (Using your head).

Melee can also perform well with good kiting positioning. 1 Thursar vs. 2 Veela melee. If either gets low they break off and bandy while the other keeps the pressure on. If 100% parry is easy as you say this makes this even easier as they should be just as capable of it as any other race. Mages will almost certainly have such options available to them. And cav builds... cav builds may spell the end of some current kiter builds in a lot of settings but the cav builds themselves are almost certainly going to replace them.
 

Rorry

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I don't understand why you separate veela like that? Plenty of people play veela footfighters, I have 1 myself.
No one is very worried about 20's, I wear more realistic armor (like it will be after release) of ironbone/leather and EVERYONE should worry about the 40+ damage.
 

Kaemik

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Veela footfighters are great. I separate them because they're more capable of not taking fights they don't want, pressing fights they do want, and tactical maneuvers than any other pre-cav race.

Some of the maneuvers I talk about would either not be possible or be significantly harder using Thursar/Ohgmir/Humans
 
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