We don't have any explicit rules against RPKing but one of our few rules is "don't be a dick" and I consider ganking defenseless randoms as being a dick.
About ARPK Guilds
- Thread starter Tekk
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We don't have any explicit rules against RPKing but one of our few rules is "don't be a dick" and I consider ganking defenseless randoms as being a dick.
I dig it. Also don't get me wrong if we ever actually have a problem that may put you on the RPK list we will reach out diplomatically first. Wasn't intended to be hella directed at KOTO just was under the impression that's what you were describing since you're KOTO and what you were describing was similar policy.
RPK, ARPK, Its just labels some guilds put on themselves, it means nothing. All guilds are truly RPK. Always gas been.
In the end they're just different playstyles and set of rules for a guild more than anything. Just makes choosing a guild easier with labels.
A person about to starve steals some bread. Punishment for theft is death. What do you do?
So if I'm attackign someone for a good reason (for example he was camping a dungeon and refused to leave), even though he is not on KOS etc, is that RPK? ^^
I think that's just PK. As long as there is a reason to it, it's not random. I think diplomacy/KOS is as good a reason as any other.
There is a really simple way to break down the difference between RPK and Non-RPK
Friendlies
Nearly all guilds have a list of friendlies. Could include many guilds, it could be very short or potentially only include their own guild's alts. Killing friendlies is almost never allowed in a functional guild.
Hostiles
Nearly all guilds have a list of hostiles. People who are against them, have slighted them, they're being paid to kill etc. Most guilds strongly encourage the killing of hostiles.
Neutrals
Neutrals are the guilds/players you have not real relations toward friendly or ill. Perhaps you don't know them, perhaps you just have no strong feelings about them.
RPK Guilds - Can kill these neutral players because they are not friendly. "Not Blue, Shoot It" is the mantra of the RPK mindset.
Non-RPK Guilds - Are told by their leadership not to kill neutral players without good cause. "Not Red, Don't Shoot" is the mantra of the Non-RPK mindset.
ARPK Guilds - Are Non-RPK guilds but beyond that, as "Anti-Random Player Killer" implies, they are on a crusade to combat RPK guilds and players.
There is a meaningful distinction between the groups. IMO all are needed to make a healthy PvP-MMO.
"What about RPK in some places, not RPK in others." It depends on the context. When our guild was allowed to kill neutrals everywhere but Fab and Kranesh we called ourselves RPK as killing neutrals across nearly the whole map is pretty random, we were just nice in one area. Now that we are only specifically allowed to kill neutrals without provocation in the town of GK (which our alliance is trying to control), we're non-RPK as locking down a single specific city for strategic reasons is hardly random. Kind of just have to use common sense and not make it more complicated than it is.
Friendlies
Nearly all guilds have a list of friendlies. Could include many guilds, it could be very short or potentially only include their own guild's alts. Killing friendlies is almost never allowed in a functional guild.
Hostiles
Nearly all guilds have a list of hostiles. People who are against them, have slighted them, they're being paid to kill etc. Most guilds strongly encourage the killing of hostiles.
Neutrals
Neutrals are the guilds/players you have not real relations toward friendly or ill. Perhaps you don't know them, perhaps you just have no strong feelings about them.
RPK Guilds - Can kill these neutral players because they are not friendly. "Not Blue, Shoot It" is the mantra of the RPK mindset.
Non-RPK Guilds - Are told by their leadership not to kill neutral players without good cause. "Not Red, Don't Shoot" is the mantra of the Non-RPK mindset.
ARPK Guilds - Are Non-RPK guilds but beyond that, as "Anti-Random Player Killer" implies, they are on a crusade to combat RPK guilds and players.
There is a meaningful distinction between the groups. IMO all are needed to make a healthy PvP-MMO.
"What about RPK in some places, not RPK in others." It depends on the context. When our guild was allowed to kill neutrals everywhere but Fab and Kranesh we called ourselves RPK as killing neutrals across nearly the whole map is pretty random, we were just nice in one area. Now that we are only specifically allowed to kill neutrals without provocation in the town of GK (which our alliance is trying to control), we're non-RPK as locking down a single specific city for strategic reasons is hardly random. Kind of just have to use common sense and not make it more complicated than it is.
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I believe there is far more to it than those 3 categories.
As the definition of "good cause" can vary heavily between guilds and location.
Sure, there might be guild that kill everything on sight, no matter who. And sure, there are guilds that might only fight against those people specifically and noone else. Those two (even though they are extremely rare) are the only ones fit for the black & white.
But everyone else is somewhere in between, with varying definitions of probable cause.
I would recommend the ARPKs being very vocal in this thread to take that into account. Otherwise, at some point they'll have every guild in the game on their KOS ^^
As the definition of "good cause" can vary heavily between guilds and location.
Sure, there might be guild that kill everything on sight, no matter who. And sure, there are guilds that might only fight against those people specifically and noone else. Those two (even though they are extremely rare) are the only ones fit for the black & white.
But everyone else is somewhere in between, with varying definitions of probable cause.
I would recommend the ARPKs being very vocal in this thread to take that into account. Otherwise, at some point they'll have every guild in the game on their KOS ^^
I think all guilds can really be broken down into those three categories though. It basically comes down to, when you go after a neutral player do you need a reason beyond the fact they aren't friendly to kill them?
If yes, you're not RPK. If no, you're RPK. The quality of the reason doesn't matter a great deal in terms of defining if your guild is RPK or Non-RPK. I think the issue is some people conflate those terms to mean more than they do.
ARPK =/= Good Guy
RPK =/= Bad Guy
It's not a term like "griefer" (someone whose entertainment is derived from intentionally trying to evoke negative emotions in the people they interact with) that is always bad. RPKs can be cool people. They can be good sports. They can even be (and frequently are) anti-griefers. Likewise I've seen more than on Non-RPK and even "ARPK" guild side with griefers to save their own skins. I've met some miserable back-stabbing pieces of work that slap that "ARPK" label on themselves. So there are good guys and bad guys on both sides of the divide.
They're terms like "lawful" and "chaotic" in D&D. They mean something, it's a bit up to your interpretation which (if either) is better. And there is a huge amount of variety within those categories. That doesn't mean they aren't useful classifications.
If yes, you're not RPK. If no, you're RPK. The quality of the reason doesn't matter a great deal in terms of defining if your guild is RPK or Non-RPK. I think the issue is some people conflate those terms to mean more than they do.
ARPK =/= Good Guy
RPK =/= Bad Guy
It's not a term like "griefer" (someone whose entertainment is derived from intentionally trying to evoke negative emotions in the people they interact with) that is always bad. RPKs can be cool people. They can be good sports. They can even be (and frequently are) anti-griefers. Likewise I've seen more than on Non-RPK and even "ARPK" guild side with griefers to save their own skins. I've met some miserable back-stabbing pieces of work that slap that "ARPK" label on themselves. So there are good guys and bad guys on both sides of the divide.
They're terms like "lawful" and "chaotic" in D&D. They mean something, it's a bit up to your interpretation which (if either) is better. And there is a huge amount of variety within those categories. That doesn't mean they aren't useful classifications.
I agree with you. My old MO1 guild was called Chaotic Neutral, so i get the idea....
In this thread it just seemed liked some people were making the bold claim: "You allow killing of randoms for any reason, you are RPK!!!"
Which is just very narrow minded ^^
In general I could agree with the 3 categories. Just think the middle ground has a lot more variety in it than the pure RPK/ARPK extremes.
I don't think the people saying something like that really understand the classification itself. Once you have a reason it's not "random" anymore. Of course, I think white knight guilds have a right to say "That reason is crap/tyrannical/against our mindset and we're not going to accept it! You're still hostile". But at that point the issue isn't that you're RPK. It's some other ideological disagreement. Or maybe just a clash of personalities. Which is totally their right. White knight guilds have just as much right to set their own justifications for their crusades as RPK guilds have to randomly kill anyone they see.
ARPK and RPK are just the base elements of it and people have different names for it, basically the answer to one question can clarify which column you fit into, "does your guild allow killing of random players outside of defending yourself?" If yes then tick RPK if no then ARPK.I agree with you. My old MO1 guild was called Chaotic Neutral, so i get the idea....
In this thread it just seemed liked some people were making the bold claim: "You allow killing of randoms for any reason, you are RPK!!!"
Which is just very narrow minded ^^
In general I could agree with the 3 categories. Just think the middle ground has a lot more variety in it than the pure RPK/ARPK extremes.
If you kill someone because they are farming a dungeon you are at, you will be placed in the RPK column by most real ARPK guilds. This isn't a bad thing the game needs all types of players.
I think there is still quite the difference between the "you farming my dungeon, leave or die" approach and killing everything you come across.
But it's up to you to throw all Non-RPK guilds (as definied by Kaemik earlier) in with RPK guilds. You just gonna have a whole lot of enemies ^^
Yes a whole lot of clearly defined enemies, this means we don't have to stand there scratching our heads wondering if we can attack or not.
These other "rules" just make it messy, be like "ok this guy is 50 fathoms outside Fab which means **checks codex of guild rules** he can attack as long as he salutes the sun and twirls his moustache"
And with this definition, the only thing that differetiate an RPK guild from a non RPK guild is the length of the lists and not the playstyle.
I actually disagree here with arch depending how you do it. If you talk to them and there's actually diplomacy it's not rpk. If all you say is leave or die and no diplomacy that's kinda on the edge but say they respond with ya man that's fine just let us kill this last batch or especially if you live close and can work out a system to share farm spots awesome. But if diplomacy fails and you kill them and take their loot im not going to step in and help you guys be buddy buddy or choose sides idgaf but it would be helpful to me if you announce your beef or something. If say the other group reports it as rpk I'd reach out to hear both sides and dismiss it but announcing it saves us from even talking cause I'm antisocial XD
Diplomacy would indicate that some sort of agreement is met, I don't think "leave or die" really counts.
If a player or group shows up to a dungeon and someone is there and they give them the option leave or die that makes them an aggressor due to greed and I would very much think an ARPK guild would help the defender.
I don't know why some groups want to be allowed to kill who ever they want but still remain in the ARPK column, there is nothing wrong with being labelled as RPK the game literally pushes it.
Well said - all of it.
For everyone else trying to define every conceivable variant, you'll have to define morality in the real world first. Good luck with that.