A proposal to overhaul how stats work for different clades/races.

Tuhtram

Active member
Jul 29, 2021
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The Accursed Swamp of Florida
Imagine a new player who knows nothing of MO2 or its systems yet.

Why do they pick the race they do? Usually it's things like appearance, or lore snippets, or what they're used to picking in other games, or whichever one sounds the coolest in the moment. What they normally aren't thinking is: "If I pick this, I won't be able to play many playstyles effectively."

We, as more experienced players, can say that they should've looked up a race guide—but I think that first requires knowing that the game would permanently punish you for something as simple as liking the way that Kallards look and wanting to play a viking-flavored mage (though that isn't a picture of her, there's a very powerful one in the lore). External knowledge shouldn't be required to make a decision before you even enter the tutorial, and because of that a large amount of people fall into these unintentional traps that do not serve to enable or challenge players, but to restrict and punish them.

New players might put in weeks worth of time only to be shown by the game that they rolled wrong.​

But let's say they rolled right, and rolled a STR/CON Kallard. If a Kallard player who's played for 9 month decides they really want to try out magic after a magic update drops, are they supposed to delete everything and start over if they want that to be their main playstyle? We have to really think about the implications of the current system of one character. Consider the long term playability of the game here, and content updates adding new weapon types, new magic schools, and so-on. Should a player, new or old, have to delete everything (or pay an extra $15 a month) to be able to enjoy a playstyle that's the opposite from what their race is geared towards?

From my perspective, all of the different hard cap numbers for different races don't serve to enable players, but to limit them without any clear benefit—except for flavor. The intention is clear: Alvarin are supposed to be fast and magical, Oghmir are supposed to be sturdy and smart and strong, Thursar are supposed to be strong and sturdy. And so-on. This is perhaps too successful in that while it creates a sense of your choice of race mattering in your playstyle and how you approach the world, the way it is right now means that if you want to play a certain playstyle well you have few options—and some you should absolutely avoid at all costs—because the stat differences can be extreme. These are things that may not be clear to a new player until it's far too late, or are an impossible-to-overcome problem for any experienced player looking to change their playstyle.

And the playerbase's choices very sadly reflect this. We see very very little of certain races, and a lot of others.

My proposal is creating differences through very different leveling rates, but everyone having the same hard caps.​

Gameplay-wise this creates a very strong push towards a race being a certain way, but doesn't keep certain races from certain playstyles. Everyone could max out STR to be the same number, but while a Thursar might be able to do that very fast, an Alvarin might have to spend weeks of purposefully using skills that level STR to get there and suffering through being bad for a while. It has to be long enough to discourage people from feeling like their choice doesn't matter. (And the Clade Gifts system really helps with making them feel different as well.)

For my example below, I'm going to use the ratings Very Easy, Easy, Medium, Difficult, and Very Difficult. "Very Easy" represents gaining the skills extremely easily, where the points seem to naturally roll in all the time with hardly any effort. If you don't lock a "Very Easy" stat, it'd go up fast without you paying much attention to it. "Very Difficult", represents something that requires a great deal of effort and active attempts to raise it, instead of something that comes to the choice naturally. Trying to level a "Very Difficult" skill should be a challenge so that there is still clearly 'best race' to pick if you have a certain playstyle in mind. We'll be able to see people who are very passionate about a race stick to that race with any playstyle they want to pick without being restricted so long as they work hard enough, and I think that's a huge bonus that the current system lacks.

And really think about this sort of thing too: Are there really meant to be no powerful Kallardian mages in all of Nave?​

Yes, you would see the occasional race in a role that's opposite of what's intended, but most wouldn't do that because it's very challenging and takes a lot of extra time for someone to get those stats when there's an easier option out there. The purposeful exception to this strong push in a certain direction is humans, who I'll explain below.

  • Alvarin - They're fast, they're most certainly not elves, and they've got a whole lot of soul energy kicking around. The Veela are approached as an option that isn't as extreme as the Sheevra in the implied Mage role.
    • Veela
      • Very Easy
        • DEX, PSY
      • Medium
        • INT
      • Difficult
        • CON
      • Very Difficult
        • STR
    • Sheevra
      • Very Easy
        • DEX, PSY
      • Easy
        • INT
      • Very Difficult
        • STR, CON
  • Oghmir - Strong, Stout, Smart, and Slow. Their stats as-is are actually pretty hard to differentiate, so I took some liberties to give them some notable differences in a similar way to the Alvarin option. Huergar are more versatile and can be mages easier than Blainn, but Blainn naturally fall into STR/CON roles.
    • Blainn
      • Very Easy
        • CON, STR
      • Easy
        • INT
      • Very Difficult
        • DEX, PSY
    • Huergar
      • Very Easy
        • INT
      • Easy
        • STR, CON
      • Difficult
        • PSY
      • Very Difficult
        • DEX
  • Thursar
    • (Risar Element, Human ancestry would shift these)
      • Very Easy
        • STR, CON
      • Medium
        • DEX
      • Very Difficult
        • PSY, INT
  • Human - An important thing to note here is that no human has a 'very easy', but at the same time none have 'very difficult' for any stat. This, along with the heavy weighting towards 'easy-medium', allows humans a very large amount of versatility as nothing will be extremely difficult to them, while preserving their 'specialization'. You'd likely see more Sarducaan mages, but some Sarducaan strength/constitution-based warriors here-and-there wouldn't be surprising. Humans would be the best race to pick for anyone who may want to switch up their playstyle frequently, and would likely be the best race to pick for a new player who doesn't know anything about the game.
    • Kallard
      • Easy
        • STR, CON
      • Medium
        • PSY, DEX
      • Difficult
        • INT
    • Khurite
      • Easy
        • DEX, CON
      • Medium
        • STR, PSY
      • Difficult
        • INT
    • Sarducaan
      • Easy
        • PSY, INT
      • Medium
        • CON, DEX
      • Difficult
        • STR
    • Tindremene
      • Easy
        • INT, DEX
      • Medium
        • PSY, STR
      • Difficult
        • CON
    • Sidoian
      • Easy
        • INT, STR
      • Medium
        • CON, DEX
      • Difficult
        • PSY
 
Last edited:

Branjolf

Active member
May 22, 2021
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106
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I am not sure what the best solution is to that issue, but i agree that new players will hate their lives for not picking an optimal build (Cause they dont know any bettter, normally you dont read 10 different guides on how to be not gimped before even creating a character).
 
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Nefnate

Well-known member
Jun 23, 2021
331
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My Mind
Imagine a new player who knows nothing of MO2 or its systems yet.

Why do they pick the race they do? Usually it's things like appearance, or lore snippets, or what they're used to picking in other games, or whichever one sounds the coolest in the moment. What they normally aren't thinking is: "If I pick this, I won't be able to play many playstyles effectively."

We, as more experienced players, can say that they should've looked up a race guide—but I think that first requires knowing that the game would permanently punish you for something as simple as liking the way that Kallards look and wanting to play a viking-flavored mage. External knowledge shouldn't be required to make a decision before you even enter the tutorial, and because of that a large amount of people fall into these unintentional traps that do not serve to enable or challenge players, but to restrict and punish them.

New players might put in weeks worth of time only to be shown by the game that they rolled wrong.​

But let's say they rolled right, and rolled a STR/CON Thursar. If a Thursar player who's played for 9 month decides they really want to try out magic after a magic update drops, are they supposed to delete everything and start over if they want that to be their main playstyle? We have to really think about the implications of the current system of one character. Consider the long term playability of the game here, and content updates adding new weapon types, new magic schools, and so-on. Should a player, new or old, have to delete everything (or pay an extra $15 a month) to be able to enjoy a playstyle that's the opposite from what their race is geared towards?

From my perspective, all of the different hard cap numbers for different races don't serve to enable players, but to limit them without any clear benefit—except for flavor. The intention is clear: Alvarin are supposed to be fast and magical, Oghmir are supposed to be sturdy and smart and strong, Thursar are supposed to be strong and sturdy. And so-on. This is perhaps too successful in that while it creates a sense of your choice of race mattering in your playstyle and how you approach the world, the way it is right now means that if you want to play a certain playstyle well you have few options—and some you should absolutely avoid at all costs—because the stat differences can be extreme. These are things that may not be clear to a new player until it's far too late, or are an impossible-to-overcome problem for any experienced player looking to change their playstyle.

And the playerbase's choices very sadly reflect this. We see very very little of certain races, and a lot of others.

My proposal is creating differences through very different leveling rates, but everyone having the same hard caps.​

Gameplay-wise this creates a very strong push towards a race being a certain way, but doesn't keep certain races from certain playstyles. Everyone could max out STR to be the same number, but while a Thursar might be able to do that very fast, an Alvarin might have to spend weeks of purposefully using skills that level STR to get there and suffering through being bad for a while. It has to be long enough to discourage people from feeling like their choice doesn't matter. (And the Clade Gifts system really helps with making them feel different as well.)

For my example below, I'm going to use the ratings Very Easy, Easy, Medium, Difficult, and Very Difficult. "Very Easy" represents gaining the skills extremely easily, where the points seem to naturally roll in all the time with hardly any effort. If you don't lock a "Very Easy" stat, it'd go up fast without you paying much attention to it. "Very Difficult", represents something that requires a great deal of effort and active attempts to raise it, instead of something that comes to the choice naturally. Trying to level a "Very Difficult" skill should be a challenge so that there is still clearly 'best race' to pick if you have a certain playstyle in mind. We'll be able to see people who are very passionate about a race stick to that race with any playstyle they want to pick without being restricted so long as they work hard enough, and I think that's a huge bonus that the current system lacks.

And really think about this sort of thing too: Are there really meant to be no powerful Kallardian mages in all of Nave?​

Yes, you would see the occasional race in a role that's opposite of what's intended, but most wouldn't do that because it's very challenging and takes a lot of extra time for someone to get those stats when there's an easier option out there. The purposeful exception to this strong push in a certain direction is humans, who I'll explain below.

  • Alvarin - They're fast, they're most certainly not elves, and they've got a whole lot of soul energy kicking around. The Veela are approached as an option that isn't as extreme as the Sheevra in the implied Mage role.
    • Veela
      • Very Easy
        • DEX, PSY
      • Medium
        • INT
      • Difficult
        • CON
      • Very Difficult
        • STR
    • Sheevra
      • Very Easy
        • DEX, PSY
      • Easy
        • INT
      • Very Difficult
        • STR, CON
  • Oghmir - Strong, Stout, Smart, and Slow. Their stats as-is are actually pretty hard to differentiate, so I took some liberties to give them some notable differences in a similar way to the Alvarin option. Huergar are more versatile and can be mages easier than Blainn, but Blainn naturally fall into STR/CON roles.
    • Blainn
      • Very Easy
        • CON, STR
      • Easy
        • INT
      • Very Difficult
        • DEX, PSY
    • Huergar
      • Very Easy
        • INT
      • Easy
        • STR, CON
      • Difficult
        • PSY
      • Very Difficult
        • DEX
  • Thursar
    • (Risar Element, Human ancestry would shift these)
      • Very Easy
        • STR, CON
      • Medium
        • DEX
      • Very Difficult
        • PSY, INT
  • Human - An important thing to note here is that no human has a 'very easy', but at the same time none have 'very difficult' for any stat. This, along with the heavy weighting towards 'easy-medium', allows humans a very large amount of versatility as nothing will be extremely difficult to them, while preserving their 'specialization'. You'd likely see more Sarducaan mages, but some Sarducaan strength/constitution-based warriors here-and-there wouldn't be surprising. Humans would be the best race to pick for anyone who may want to switch up their playstyle frequently, and would likely be the best race to pick for a new player who doesn't know anything about the game.
    • Kallard
      • Easy
        • STR, CON
      • Medium
        • PSY, DEX
      • Difficult
        • INT
    • Khurite
      • Easy
        • DEX, CON
      • Medium
        • STR, PSY
      • Difficult
        • INT
    • Sarducaan
      • Easy
        • PSY, INT
      • Medium
        • CON, DEX
      • Difficult
        • STR
    • Tindremene
      • Easy
        • INT, DEX
      • Medium
        • PSY, STR
      • Difficult
        • CON
    • Sidoian
      • Easy
        • INT, STR
      • Medium
        • CON, DEX
      • Difficult
        • PSY

I like what you're hitting at here, however, it would also require a substantial rework of how the Clade System works.

I myself have always been partial to this outlook of each race having the same stat caps. Size would be drawn from the attribute pool as well, and would be more limited based on race: Thursar having the highest cap, and Alvarin or Oghmir having the lowest.

However, with how the Clades work currently, other than time, nothing is stopping all Mounted Archer players for example, from rolling a veela, eventually maximizing their strength, and then using their +10 bow Str Clades to allow them to use... 140? str bows.

Clades would need to be revisited in order to remove attribute additions and add more contextual flavour.


Another note: I am sure they will be selling "Race Rerolls" shortly after release.
 

Tuhtram

Active member
Jul 29, 2021
84
174
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The Accursed Swamp of Florida
I like what you're hitting at here, however, it would also require a substantial rework of how the Clade System works.

I myself have always been partial to this outlook of each race having the same stat caps. Size would be drawn from the attribute pool as well, and would be more limited based on race: Thursar having the highest cap, and Alvarin or Oghmir having the lowest.

However, with how the Clades work currently, other than time, nothing is stopping all Mounted Archer players for example, from rolling a veela, eventually maximizing their strength, and then using their +10 bow Str Clades to allow them to use... 140? str bows.

Clades would need to be revisited in order to remove attribute additions and add more contextual flavour.


Another note: I am sure they will be selling "Race Rerolls" shortly after release.
Yeah I definitely agree with that, I think the clade gifts are a really good system in terms of the base idea of the gifts, but some of them are too strong if everyone were to have the same max hard caps. Easier to rework and fiddle with than the entire stat system post-persistence, I guess.
 

Nefnate

Well-known member
Jun 23, 2021
331
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My Mind
Yeah I definitely agree with that, I think the clade gifts are a really good system in terms of the base idea of the gifts, but some of them are too strong if everyone were to have the same max hard caps. Easier to rework and fiddle with than the entire stat system post-persistence, I guess.
Personally I think having a 3 section Clade set up with the equalized attributes would be ideal.

The template would be the same for each race, so that every race would have some goodies for each archetype of play, instead of each race being master of one. Of course the Clades themselves would be (mostly) race specific. Could be something like:
  • Physicality
    • Deals with their power and toughness (think melee, bows, carry weight, defence, etc.)
  • Magical
    • Deals with mental and spirituality (think mana, regeneration, sensing, magical defence, etc.)
  • Utility
    • Deals with things that do not directly affect combat (think profession points, law system, gathering, etc.)
 
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Tuhtram

Active member
Jul 29, 2021
84
174
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The Accursed Swamp of Florida
Personally I think having a 3 section Clade set up with the equalized attributes would be ideal.

The template would be the same for each race, so that every race would have some goodies for each archetype of play, instead of each race being master of one. Of course the Clades themselves would be (mostly) race specific. Could be something like:
  • Physicality
    • Deals with their power and toughness (think melee, bows, carry weight, defence, etc.)
  • Magical
    • Deals with mental and spirituality (think mana, regeneration, sensing, magical defence, etc.)
  • Utility
    • Deals with things that do not directly affect combat (think profession points, law system, gathering, etc.)
Oh that’s actually a really nice idea! I hadn’t thought of that. Like unique Alvarin, Human, Oghmir, Thursar magic branches, strength branches, utility branches. Like you said that could really give each race a way to get some kind of a bonus in different play styles without making any of them a master of one particular play style.

They’d just have to be creative enough to make the experiences really feel unique.
 

Woody

Well-known member
Apr 4, 2021
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It was mentioned on a dev stream they're working on Bloodline template system that players can click on in the character creator screen for specific playstyles. Remembering that every other value apart from bloodline can be changed in game via some mechanic.
 
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Tuhtram

Active member
Jul 29, 2021
84
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The Accursed Swamp of Florida
It was mentioned on a dev stream they're working on Bloodline template system that players can click on in the character creator screen for specific playstyles. Remembering that every other value apart from bloodline can be changed in game via some mechanic.
Do you know where I might be able to find a clip of that being talked about?
 

Tuhtram

Active member
Jul 29, 2021
84
174
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The Accursed Swamp of Florida
Wanted to update this with an idea that hit me. Under this system I do actually propose one massive restriction to one clade:

Thursar

d3cy65r-67a8ca2c-5177-43b1-be4d-ba2da953aeb3.jpg

"The Thursars also share the orcs’ inability to understand magic and thus share the same fear the orcs have for the arcane, something that can probably be traced back to the origins of the orc race. A few Thursars develop abilities resembling those of the orc shamans, but without guidance or tutoring these abilities seldom grow strong."

Since they aren't supposed to be able to cast magic at all in the lore, a solution that would add an extremely unique gaming experience for this unique race would be to lock them from learning magic entirely, and give players a pop-up that they have to confirm when selecting Thursar in character creation, acknowledging that Thursar can't cast magic aside from hinting at some abilities that aren't out yet.

Henrik's talked about the "RPG" aspect of MMOs, and how we have to remember the roots of where MMOs come from. It's definitely the sort of thing that calls very strongly to that RPG aspect. Under the system in my original post, if they can respec into any other playstyle, then players who simply don't have any interest in magic (or really like Thursar for their RPG experience) may pick them. Yes, that dedication will make them rarer, but they're supposed to be rare. They have no major settlements, no major culture, and no major population. It would make them, as a race, feel incredibly unique and would really add to that 'fantasy world simulator' feeling that Henrik has discussed.

Of course nothing that huge should be taken away without things given back. They should have abilities and content that other races can't access, such as:
  • Once they gain positive standing with Risar, they can enter Risar camps
    • Some of these could be expanded to be dungeon-like experiences for those who aren't affiliated with the Risar, while for those who are they function more like small blue towns.
    • These towns could be used for storage, respawning, crafting, Risar tasks, vendors, and maybe even in-town housing like other towns will have.
    • In regions without Risar in the lore, small groups of Thursar bandits could work as well.
  • Unique unarmed combat scaling
    • Allows them to roll out of respawning able to do enough damage to kill weaker PvE enemies like walking dead and scoundrels with no weapons.
  • Being the only ones who can learn a Thursar/Risar-specific shamanistic magic school
    • Allows them to eventually become mages.
They would, of course, have huge opportunities if we ever got Herabalter—such as the unique Risar shamanistic magic school that only Thursar can access, and perhaps even peaceful access to a hostile-to-everyone-else Risar city that functions like a dungeon to everyone but Thursar who have gotten high Risar rep.
 
Last edited:
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