I keep seeing the vocal minority perk up about the combat being good, balanced, and fair across the board.
Why?
Here are a list of reasons I've personally seen that people attribute to the combat being 'better' or in a more-or-less finishes state, ready to be 'added onto' rather than fixed.
1.) It's easier for newer players to pick up and learn.
2.) It puts both low ping, and higher ping players on a more even playing field.
3.) The animations are easier to read due to the slower nature of the combat.
4.) The combat looks more realistic.
5.) The 'kick' / 'dodge' / 'special moves' will give players the aggression they want.
6.) Equipment hits should continue to hit for 0 because why should I take damage if they hit my weapon.
Here are 6 reasons I've picked up on that a lot of people continue to throw out when people say 'combat slow / combat bad' as a form of rebuttal. So I'm going to systematically argue each individual point with as much unbiased logic as I can possibly muster.
At some point, I will be selfish and imply that parts that could change are something that I want personally. That doesn't necessarily mean I want it for purely selfish reasons, but that I try to keep the entire game in scope, both new and old players.
I'm also not going to adhere to the ridiculously dull argument of...
It's still in alpha...
It's not finished yet...
They haven't added the special moves yet so be patient...
It IS an alpha, a COMBAT alpha. So I'm going to discuss WHY the COMBAT in my opinion CURRENTLY isn't up to par and will more than likely cause FUTURE problems unless it is changed SOON. This is constructive criticism, see it as complaining? Then you're apart of the problem.
Let's start with the first point.
1.) It's easier for newer players to pick up and learn.
Right off the bat, I can agree with this statement solely because the skill floor is significantly higher than most melee slasher games. Which some people seem to think is a good thing, when in-fact it is not. While the combat is relatively easy, slow, and straight forward; this will only negatively impact both newer players and older players.
Specifically for newer players this causes a lower skill ceiling for them to achieve, as it stands, it would take a very short amount of time for a player with average reactions and mechanical skill to be on par with the rest of the community. In theory this sounds good, but the problem that arises that players who are exceptionally good now have to try much harder in-order to work a system that has been willingly changed to suite masses rather than work horses. If that doesn't make sense, it's as simple as players working hard to be good at the combat have to put in more time to be an 'over achiever' with little to show for it. This will stifle a lot of competitive players as the system doesn't reward players practicing to get better.
As for older players, especially those coming from other competitive melee slashers or even MO1; they will notice the combat system at it's core is fine. Four directional attacks, you can parry all of them, holding your swings too long degrades damage done, holding blocks too long increases damage (blocked damage) taken. Though initially what was the issue, by the time I got my hands on the alpha, was that the combat was too restrictive in its turn caps and it felt sluggish. With the last combat altering patch, those restrictive turncaps have been removed / loosened but now we were introduced to a four-stage attack rather than a three-stage attack (More stages = slower / longer attacks). This was to make animations appear more smoothly, and to help with the varying ranges of latency / ping between players. Sounds good on paper, but in execution the combat is quite literally a snails pace, coupled with a reduction in movement speed.
This will put off a lot of competitive / old players given the fact a faster paced combat system rewarded better reactions / mechanical ability, where as now for example players in MO1 who were 'not so good' at PvP can now hold their ground in way more situations than they should be able to as the system currently crutches their ability.
The way combat currently stands, large groups or often called 'zergs' will benefit from this kind of system. This means in persay a group of 15 versus a group of 5, the group of 5 is often going to lose even if those 5 individuals are exceptionally skilled and the group of 15 is borderline average. There might be rare scenarios where the better players overcome the odds, but as the system stands the 15 will always have the advantage, of course numbers attributing to that, but the system is fundamentally flawed in the way it is designed currently.
I can say from personal experience in the alpha so far, the paragraph above this one is true to the fullest extent. I sometimes will log on with a few players and begin fighting in a town and by the time a large group is formed; there is nothing we can do because 'finishing' (A target who is low, and attempting to kill them) is extremely hard because how defensive-driven and easy it is to run, jump, bandage, or just sit and parry whilst 3 others beat on you to get you out of the group. Maybe race-balances with speeds on persistence will potentially fix this issue, but I don't think so.
Newer players are going to hit the skill ceiling much, much sooner and there will be little room for 'growth' in learning the combat system and it will only be 'padded' (Made more effective) with gear, numbers, and in the further future potentially magic, pets, mounteds, AI guards, etc.
Combat in melee slashers should be fundamentally easy to learn "Someone swings left, I block right. Someone swings right, I block left." but should be difficult to master. This combat right now doesn't feel or resemble that kind of thinking.
On to the second point.
2.) It puts both low ping, and higher ping players on a more even playing field.
Now. Being a NA player who has experienced both east coast and now central pings, I can say this one is a give or take. I like the idea that EU players are now forced to be on an even playing field with NA players, however this still doesn't resolve the issue of higher ping players who either live in oriential countries, AU, RU, etc. So while I can agree to the lower ping players being put on a better playing field for a majority of the player base - I don't really see a solution to higher ping players and I definitely don't think balance should account for them.
No offense to them of course, but there is no competitive play in trying to balance a game around someone who has a significantly larger delay than you both in input and reaction. I'm very neutral on this.
3.) The animations are easier to read due to the slower nature of the combat.
The animations before the four-step animations in attacks, the attacks were already fairly easy to read. Better players were more easily discerned than worse players, now if we had a version of the previous combat where we had still removed / loosened the turn cap on swing releases without the combat swing speed / combat movement reduction; along with the flat ping change on EU players... I think we would have a pretty solid combat system right now.
Sadly, this isn't our reality and we're currently forced into snail-paced combat which has turned dueling into a war of attrition with ridiculous TTK (Time-to-kill) times. I know a lot of people want to go red in the face and say 1v1's don't matter, but in group fights; you are bound to 1v1 other players and it also makes finishing players within a group much more difficult given the slow nature of offensive play. It is EXTREMELY easier to be defensive then offensive right now, and it encourages more numbers / crutching on better gear to out perform others rather than skill.
So sure, animations are even easier to read now; but at the cost of the combat now being parry statue online.
4.) The combat looks more realistic.
Realism is always going to be a dead path in arguing a mechanical change. If we're going to argue realism, then they need to add sleeping where you need to sleep for hours on end to have full stamina; you need to eat and drink multiple times through out the day. There should be sickness, and if you get killed you just have to start over because you died.
Realism should only be taken in VERY, VERY small strides when trying to apply it to mechanical / balance changes. Make things too realistic, the game is going to be a chore or completely unfun. The combat already looked average before, and it honestly looks a lot worse now watching people just trade parries or just consistently bump into each other and smack for handles or equipment hits in long, boring, drawn out engagements.
5.) The 'kick' / 'dodge' / 'special moves' will give players the aggression they want.
No it wont. Please, for the love of God stop saying this. MO1 had special moves. Overhead strike, triple strike, dual strike, spear stance.. Guess what they did? They were sprinkles on the cake. They weren't part of the cake. Players AGGRESSION should NOT BE ABILITY BASED IN A MELEE SLASHER WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU.
Abilities AND moves should be SPRINKLES, not fucking core functions to combat. Like in MO1, you didn't NEED to have overhead strike, you didn't NEED triple strike, you didn't NEED dual strike, you didn't NEED spear stance (Even though it didn't work, lol). You could fight JUST FINE without it. But now we're being led into this way of thinking that dodging, special moves, and kicks are going to be our aggression. This is.. just hilariously stupid. The combat, on it's own two feet; should support both defensive and aggressive playstyles.
Then once it does, then sure. Sprinkle away!
Why?
Here are a list of reasons I've personally seen that people attribute to the combat being 'better' or in a more-or-less finishes state, ready to be 'added onto' rather than fixed.
1.) It's easier for newer players to pick up and learn.
2.) It puts both low ping, and higher ping players on a more even playing field.
3.) The animations are easier to read due to the slower nature of the combat.
4.) The combat looks more realistic.
5.) The 'kick' / 'dodge' / 'special moves' will give players the aggression they want.
6.) Equipment hits should continue to hit for 0 because why should I take damage if they hit my weapon.
Here are 6 reasons I've picked up on that a lot of people continue to throw out when people say 'combat slow / combat bad' as a form of rebuttal. So I'm going to systematically argue each individual point with as much unbiased logic as I can possibly muster.
At some point, I will be selfish and imply that parts that could change are something that I want personally. That doesn't necessarily mean I want it for purely selfish reasons, but that I try to keep the entire game in scope, both new and old players.
I'm also not going to adhere to the ridiculously dull argument of...
It's still in alpha...
It's not finished yet...
They haven't added the special moves yet so be patient...
It IS an alpha, a COMBAT alpha. So I'm going to discuss WHY the COMBAT in my opinion CURRENTLY isn't up to par and will more than likely cause FUTURE problems unless it is changed SOON. This is constructive criticism, see it as complaining? Then you're apart of the problem.
Let's start with the first point.
1.) It's easier for newer players to pick up and learn.
Right off the bat, I can agree with this statement solely because the skill floor is significantly higher than most melee slasher games. Which some people seem to think is a good thing, when in-fact it is not. While the combat is relatively easy, slow, and straight forward; this will only negatively impact both newer players and older players.
Specifically for newer players this causes a lower skill ceiling for them to achieve, as it stands, it would take a very short amount of time for a player with average reactions and mechanical skill to be on par with the rest of the community. In theory this sounds good, but the problem that arises that players who are exceptionally good now have to try much harder in-order to work a system that has been willingly changed to suite masses rather than work horses. If that doesn't make sense, it's as simple as players working hard to be good at the combat have to put in more time to be an 'over achiever' with little to show for it. This will stifle a lot of competitive players as the system doesn't reward players practicing to get better.
As for older players, especially those coming from other competitive melee slashers or even MO1; they will notice the combat system at it's core is fine. Four directional attacks, you can parry all of them, holding your swings too long degrades damage done, holding blocks too long increases damage (blocked damage) taken. Though initially what was the issue, by the time I got my hands on the alpha, was that the combat was too restrictive in its turn caps and it felt sluggish. With the last combat altering patch, those restrictive turncaps have been removed / loosened but now we were introduced to a four-stage attack rather than a three-stage attack (More stages = slower / longer attacks). This was to make animations appear more smoothly, and to help with the varying ranges of latency / ping between players. Sounds good on paper, but in execution the combat is quite literally a snails pace, coupled with a reduction in movement speed.
This will put off a lot of competitive / old players given the fact a faster paced combat system rewarded better reactions / mechanical ability, where as now for example players in MO1 who were 'not so good' at PvP can now hold their ground in way more situations than they should be able to as the system currently crutches their ability.
The way combat currently stands, large groups or often called 'zergs' will benefit from this kind of system. This means in persay a group of 15 versus a group of 5, the group of 5 is often going to lose even if those 5 individuals are exceptionally skilled and the group of 15 is borderline average. There might be rare scenarios where the better players overcome the odds, but as the system stands the 15 will always have the advantage, of course numbers attributing to that, but the system is fundamentally flawed in the way it is designed currently.
I can say from personal experience in the alpha so far, the paragraph above this one is true to the fullest extent. I sometimes will log on with a few players and begin fighting in a town and by the time a large group is formed; there is nothing we can do because 'finishing' (A target who is low, and attempting to kill them) is extremely hard because how defensive-driven and easy it is to run, jump, bandage, or just sit and parry whilst 3 others beat on you to get you out of the group. Maybe race-balances with speeds on persistence will potentially fix this issue, but I don't think so.
Newer players are going to hit the skill ceiling much, much sooner and there will be little room for 'growth' in learning the combat system and it will only be 'padded' (Made more effective) with gear, numbers, and in the further future potentially magic, pets, mounteds, AI guards, etc.
Combat in melee slashers should be fundamentally easy to learn "Someone swings left, I block right. Someone swings right, I block left." but should be difficult to master. This combat right now doesn't feel or resemble that kind of thinking.
On to the second point.
2.) It puts both low ping, and higher ping players on a more even playing field.
Now. Being a NA player who has experienced both east coast and now central pings, I can say this one is a give or take. I like the idea that EU players are now forced to be on an even playing field with NA players, however this still doesn't resolve the issue of higher ping players who either live in oriential countries, AU, RU, etc. So while I can agree to the lower ping players being put on a better playing field for a majority of the player base - I don't really see a solution to higher ping players and I definitely don't think balance should account for them.
No offense to them of course, but there is no competitive play in trying to balance a game around someone who has a significantly larger delay than you both in input and reaction. I'm very neutral on this.
3.) The animations are easier to read due to the slower nature of the combat.
The animations before the four-step animations in attacks, the attacks were already fairly easy to read. Better players were more easily discerned than worse players, now if we had a version of the previous combat where we had still removed / loosened the turn cap on swing releases without the combat swing speed / combat movement reduction; along with the flat ping change on EU players... I think we would have a pretty solid combat system right now.
Sadly, this isn't our reality and we're currently forced into snail-paced combat which has turned dueling into a war of attrition with ridiculous TTK (Time-to-kill) times. I know a lot of people want to go red in the face and say 1v1's don't matter, but in group fights; you are bound to 1v1 other players and it also makes finishing players within a group much more difficult given the slow nature of offensive play. It is EXTREMELY easier to be defensive then offensive right now, and it encourages more numbers / crutching on better gear to out perform others rather than skill.
So sure, animations are even easier to read now; but at the cost of the combat now being parry statue online.
4.) The combat looks more realistic.
Realism is always going to be a dead path in arguing a mechanical change. If we're going to argue realism, then they need to add sleeping where you need to sleep for hours on end to have full stamina; you need to eat and drink multiple times through out the day. There should be sickness, and if you get killed you just have to start over because you died.
Realism should only be taken in VERY, VERY small strides when trying to apply it to mechanical / balance changes. Make things too realistic, the game is going to be a chore or completely unfun. The combat already looked average before, and it honestly looks a lot worse now watching people just trade parries or just consistently bump into each other and smack for handles or equipment hits in long, boring, drawn out engagements.
5.) The 'kick' / 'dodge' / 'special moves' will give players the aggression they want.
No it wont. Please, for the love of God stop saying this. MO1 had special moves. Overhead strike, triple strike, dual strike, spear stance.. Guess what they did? They were sprinkles on the cake. They weren't part of the cake. Players AGGRESSION should NOT BE ABILITY BASED IN A MELEE SLASHER WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU.
Abilities AND moves should be SPRINKLES, not fucking core functions to combat. Like in MO1, you didn't NEED to have overhead strike, you didn't NEED triple strike, you didn't NEED dual strike, you didn't NEED spear stance (Even though it didn't work, lol). You could fight JUST FINE without it. But now we're being led into this way of thinking that dodging, special moves, and kicks are going to be our aggression. This is.. just hilariously stupid. The combat, on it's own two feet; should support both defensive and aggressive playstyles.
Then once it does, then sure. Sprinkle away!
