When are we getting a counter to MM?

[Turbizzler]

I know, but that can't be the only way to dismount. There should even be dismount arrows in my opinion

Blunt arrows should have a chance to dismount if hitting the torso, that scales with strength. Higher strength bow, higher chance to dismount with blunt arrows. Hitting the person in the head, should increase dismount chance by a very high % or even a 100% dismount chance.

Need spear stance back(this time working properly, unlike in MO1) and magic options to dismount people, preferably projectile based spells, because hitscan would be imbalanced for that.

 

[Dracu]

"Just wait till you get weapon special attacks." - Henrik 2022.

Spears will have a special attack that is an auto-dismount for any mounted who is dumb enough to run into it. Spear Stance.... which makes you immobile for a few seconds but it braces the spear in the famous "Braveheart" stance and IF a mounted runs into it no matter the speed it is an automatic dismount of the player. But the faster the mount goes the more damage it takes from the hit.

Problem is you can easily see it and just turn...

I really hope thats not what they do... But then... Can i imagine SV to beeing able to implement something better?.... No

 

[Dracu]

I need weak spot spears! The problem w/ mounted is it's too easily countered by LB and not easily enough by anything else IMO. It's kinda like MO1 TM axes, either have a long bow or you don't. Of course, we w/ archery and a shorty can do it, too, somewhat. We aren't gonna get a horse in a zerg tho, with a LB you could.

But RNG is eh but 'have it or not' break points also suck! Plus there were TM hits in MO1 that didn't dismount, so there is always rng. RNG levels out over time.

RNG should be used for variety, change an outcome up... Like drops from a mob, or the attacks an AI does... Or their movements in a dungeon... Make it different so its not to monotone... In player Combat though? Helllllll noooo critical random hits in pvp are garbage... I dont mind weakspots beeing a pve thing, but in pvp they shouldnt exist. You get enough variety by other factors that are out of your controll ... Like the armor an enemy wears...

I hate weakspot as much as i hate equipment hits (not shields). I cant think of anyone... Besides Henrik... That said... Equipment hits? Thats the best thing ever!!
In my book they are literally the same thing, weakspots and equipment hits... BS rng mechanics out of your controll that can change the outcome of a fight purely based on luck instead of skill... Both things that are not required and the combat would work without both.

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

RNG should be used for variety, change an outcome up... Like drops from a mob, or the attacks an AI does... Or their movements in a dungeon... Make it different so its not to monotone... In player Combat though? Helllllll noooo critical random hits in pvp are garbage... I dont mind weakspots beeing a pve thing, but in pvp they shouldnt exist. You get enough variety by other factors that are out of your controll ... Like the armor an enemy wears...

I hate weakspot as much as i hate equipment hits (not shields). I cant think of anyone... Besides Henrik... That said... Equipment hits? Thats the best thing ever!!
In my book they are literally the same thing, weakspots and equipment hits... BS rng mechanics out of your controll that can change the outcome of a fight purely based on luck instead of skill... Both things that are not required and the combat would work without both.

Tottally agreed AI Is garbo and thats the reason all pets shouldn't be pvp directed at least until theres a proper rework of features.

The rng factor Is not bad for combat, do we agree that a headshot requires skill? Then yeah it should have a chance to inflict extra damage, to reward the effort of aiming.

Equipment hits would be nice if they added another layer of complexity for combat, imagine equipment hits granting severe dura loss, and purposely aiming to break someone's shield or weapon. That would require a different degree of preparation and strategy.

Otherwise equipment hits are just a form to avoid getting hit without proper risk or loss (balance), which Is the case of shields for example, parrying should be minor dura loss, blocking higher and equipment hits more, not drastic but enough to change the outcome of fights. And the same rule should apply to anything that grants equipment hits, It's a decent tradeoff, great damage mitigation at expense of dura.

Ideally a system that uses the equipment stats. Idk for example depending on the materials equipment Is made and the resulting stats a calculation on the dura damage taken depending on the type of damage done. For example, shields ment to endure higher piercing or slashing or bashing depending on what are they made of, same as weapons, having to make a tradeoff between durability and utility.

This Is one of the reasons i consider all crafting needs to be reworked. Cuz It's either partially made or completly placeholder.

 

[Dracu]

Tottally agreed AI Is garbo and thats the reason all pets shouldn't be pvp directed at least until theres a proper rework of features.

The rng factor Is not bad for combat, do we agree that a headshot requires skill? Then yeah it should have a chance to inflict extra damage, to reward the effort of aiming.

Equipment hits would be nice if they added another layer of complexity for combat, imagine equipment hits granting severe dura loss, and purposely aiming to break someone's shield or weapon. That would require a different degree of preparation and strategy.

Otherwise equipment hits are just a form to avoid getting hit without proper risk or loss (balance), which Is the case of shields for example, parrying should be minor dura loss, blocking higher and equipment hits more, not drastic but enough to change the outcome of fights. And the same rule should apply to anything that grants equipment hits, It's a decent tradeoff, great damage mitigation at expense of dura.

Ideally a system that uses the equipment stats. Idk for example depending on the materials equipment Is made and the resulting stats a calculation on the dura damage taken depending on the type of damage done. For example, shields ment to endure higher piercing or slashing or bashing depending on what are they made of, same as weapons, having to make a tradeoff between durability and utility.

This Is one of the reasons i consider all crafting needs to be reworked. Cuz It's either partially made or completly placeholder.

A headshot doesnt need an rng mechanic though. It needs increased dmg on a fixed basis like for example 20% more dmg or whatever number... The percentage might even be tied to the skill lvl... Not a weakspot percentage that maybe triggers and does more dmg and maybe not.... How would be a not triggering weakspot on a skillfully handled headshot be any good afterall... Thats bs.

Equipment hits arent nice because they are 100% random. Unless somebody can show me equipment hit blocking (not shield, they are fine in that regard) on purpose 3 times in a row in a normal fighting situation. Even 2 times should be near impossible.

Dura dmg is cool on paper. Would be cool as a proper mechanic IF the dura actually would get normalised and doesnt use a horrible formular... Cronite spear not even 200 dura... Yes SV great formular you got there... Steel spear... 120ish dura.... Cant remember exactly it was way to low... Amazing...

I would agree though on equipment hits if it was remade as a proper mechanic that can be influenced more... I would personally like chambering to be the replacement for equipment hits.


btw... What was this thread about? Broken anti dismount tools right? This derailed quite a bit...

 

[Kaemik]

Blunt arrows should have a chance to dismount if hitting the torso

As I said when someone else suggested a ranged dismount in another topic, if we are adding ranged dismounts I think we should add a 10 second stun if you get hit with a lance at 4 speed.

Sound ridiculous? Sound overpowered as all hell? It is. But it's balanced if we have ranged dismounts. Ranged dismounts are a ridiculous suggestion that would require mounted builds to basically win the game if they stay saddled in order to not signal the immediate end of all mounted builds as serious factors in PvP.

And they're already pretty much non-factors for any foot build that understands both foot and mounted play. It is SO easy to play in a way that makes mounted builds basically useless against you. 95% of mounted builds would disappear over night if similarly efficient travel methods to 100 controlled riding desert horses were introduced for footies.

 

[Emdash]

RNG should be used for variety, change an outcome up... Like drops from a mob, or the attacks an AI does... Or their movements in a dungeon... Make it different so its not to monotone... In player Combat though? Helllllll noooo critical random hits in pvp are garbage... I dont mind weakspots beeing a pve thing, but in pvp they shouldnt exist. You get enough variety by other factors that are out of your controll ... Like the armor an enemy wears...

I hate weakspot as much as i hate equipment hits (not shields). I cant think of anyone... Besides Henrik... That said... Equipment hits? Thats the best thing ever!!
In my book they are literally the same thing, weakspots and equipment hits... BS rng mechanics out of your controll that can change the outcome of a fight purely based on luck instead of skill... Both things that are not required and the combat would work without both.

the thing is the vast majority of games do have RNG. RNG is the same flavor. It sucks to lose cuz bad RNG, but it's like if you get shot, sometimes you can escape with a flesh wound, some times that shit can bounce around inside of you. Weak spots could be handled better. If there was a way to 'do' a weak spot, like hit someone in the side and up, that would be cool, but otoh, then we might have people cheezing that. Weak spot/highroll/low roll dmg is just another variable. Like I've said before, it's like basketball... everyone thinks of shooting percentages and a lot of the time it does tell who won the game and why, but the actual GAME is getting good shots and playing the intangibles. I don't mind it.

I also would like head shots to be raw. Marks is a weird skill. It IS basically for PvE tho it does wreck horses in armor, too. I dunno. I def agree with the idea of armor piercing, but I do think RNG CAN be a wack way to do it. However, some people are almost pure weak spot. I think weak spot should be more 'true' dmg, so like a 30 v armor, which is insane! It scales weird. These aren't (afaik, haven't been around as much?) MO1 weak spots that are like 100+ haha. I've never got one, but I almost never charge my swings fully.

EQ hits are actually awesome to me IF the game was not a desync'd mess. It depends on what kinda EQ hit you get, but yea hilts, guard handles, those should matter. Your shoulder pads... not so much lol. I mean for a 0? Nah.

It's just about MM counter. haha. Well, I dunno if it's impossible to drop a MM off anyway, but they can just get back on. What about RNG on weak spot but increasing with arc. haha, it sucks because people would prol learn how to cheese that, too... but having that perfect arc then popping someone into the air felt so good in 1.

I really dunno, tho. 20~ dmg range in spells, prol 5 dmg range in armor fight hits, 20~ heal tick for bandaids. It's more RNG than you think, but yeah it does suck to get on the bad end. But it's just the same as popping a 29 bandaid instead of a 51, to me.

And yea, my basic point is combat would be too state without RNG because it's impossible to add that much complexity, but real mechanics masquerading as rng, like EQ hits, are wack. But I dunno anyone who can really force eq hits with any reliability, but it would be nice to be able to use some of the handles to deflect stuff, imagine weps hitting each other in the air wew. What a game changer.

 

[Dracu]

the thing is the vast majority of games do have RNG. RNG is the same flavor. It sucks to lose cuz bad RNG, but it's like if you get shot, sometimes you can escape with a flesh wound, some times that shit can bounce around inside of you. Weak spots could be handled better. If there was a way to 'do' a weak spot, like hit someone in the side and up, that would be cool, but otoh, then we might have people cheezing that. Weak spot/highroll/low roll dmg is just another variable. Like I've said before, it's like basketball... everyone thinks of shooting percentages and a lot of the time it does tell who won the game and why, but the actual GAME is getting good shots and playing the intangibles. I don't mind it.

I also would like head shots to be raw. Marks is a weird skill. It IS basically for PvE tho it does wreck horses in armor, too. I dunno. I def agree with the idea of armor piercing, but I do think RNG CAN be a wack way to do it. However, some people are almost pure weak spot. I think weak spot should be more 'true' dmg, so like a 30 v armor, which is insane! It scales weird. These aren't (afaik, haven't been around as much?) MO1 weak spots that are like 100+ haha. I've never got one, but I almost never charge my swings fully.

EQ hits are actually awesome to me IF the game was not a desync'd mess. It depends on what kinda EQ hit you get, but yea hilts, guard handles, those should matter. Your shoulder pads... not so much lol. I mean for a 0? Nah.

It's just about MM counter. haha. Well, I dunno if it's impossible to drop a MM off anyway, but they can just get back on. What about RNG on weak spot but increasing with arc. haha, it sucks because people would prol learn how to cheese that, too... but having that perfect arc then popping someone into the air felt so good in 1.

I really dunno, tho. 20~ dmg range in spells, prol 5 dmg range in armor fight hits, 20~ heal tick for bandaids. It's more RNG than you think, but yeah it does suck to get on the bad end. But it's just the same as popping a 29 bandaid instead of a 51, to me.

And yea, my basic point is combat would be too state without RNG because it's impossible to add that much complexity, but real mechanics masquerading as rng, like EQ hits, are wack. But I dunno anyone who can really force eq hits with any reliability, but it would be nice to be able to use some of the handles to deflect stuff, imagine weps hitting each other in the air wew. What a game changer.

Its not really cheesing when you land skill shots to do more dmg or archive certain results. Its... skillfull play.

Yeah you are right, the game has way to much pointless, dumb, RNG... Like bandages... PVP has enough player decided RNG, what do they do, what do they wear, what attacks do they do, how many are there, etc etc... Its all out of your controll already... Why the hell... Does the game put more RNG ontop of that which is not required. Bandages are a good example... They have a mechanic ingame where healing can be stopped by players and bandage results can be lowered by dmg recieved... And yet there is the rng mechanic of how much hp you get... Why is this rng mechanic still around...

 

[Turbizzler]

As I said when someone else suggested a ranged dismount in another topic, if we are adding ranged dismounts I think we should add a 10 second stun if you get hit with a lance at 4 speed.

It should go both ways. If a footie gets hit by a mid weight to heavy weapon while a mounted and is max speed charging or even the mount itself hitting the footie(like mounted charge in MO1) it should knockdown the footie for a short period. But if the rider gets hit by a mid weight to heavy weapon in the torso or head, even if the mount gets hit in the head - It should result in the mounted being dismounted. Risk vs Reward.

Sound ridiculous? Sound overpowered as all hell? It is. But it's balanced if we have ranged dismounts. Ranged dismounts are a ridiculous suggestion that would require mounted builds to basically win the game if they stay saddled in order to not signal the immediate end of all mounted builds as serious factors in PvP.

Ranged dismounts with blunt arrows can be easily balanced by adjusting the % value of hitting torso. Most people can barely hit a moving target 20 meters in front of them with a bow no matter if they're foot or mounted bowing someone, the projectile system throws them off. Shit, some people can't even hit a static target 20 meters in front of them lol Scaling it with strength means only long bows on foot would be reliable with torso hits to dismount and the longer draw times are apart of the balance. Only would be viable for asym & short bows with head shots.

The problem is, things need to be tested or things will either end up with Mounted being OP for longs periods(like MO1 for example) or having varying levels that yo yo between below average to potent(like in MO2). Rock-paper-scissors balance causes this, which is what SV has been dipping into with their current design and it doesn't work well. Do too much or too little to one race or "class" type and it disrupts the balance scale. There should be hard counters, but there should also be soft counters to make all builds and races have viability. Instead of this linear balance type that shoes horns people into a single cookie cutter build per race and causes no build diversity.

SV really needs to utilize a public test environment client, where they test PvP and PvE changes to get feedback on balance before implementing to live build.

 

[MolagAmur]

As I said when someone else suggested a ranged dismount in another topic, if we are adding ranged dismounts I think we should add a 10 second stun if you get hit with a lance at 4 speed.

Sound ridiculous? Sound overpowered as all hell? It is. But it's balanced if we have ranged dismounts. Ranged dismounts are a ridiculous suggestion that would require mounted builds to basically win the game if they stay saddled in order to not signal the immediate end of all mounted builds as serious factors in PvP.

And they're already pretty much non-factors for any foot build that understands both foot and mounted play. It is SO easy to play in a way that makes mounted builds basically useless against you. 95% of mounted builds would disappear over night if similarly efficient travel methods to 100 controlled riding desert horses were introduced for footies.

Sounds like youre thinking more 1v1. Mounted vs foot.

Mounteds should excel in groups. Mounteds excel in mobility. Mounteds excel in resetting a fight. Mounteds excel in not having to worry about player stamina. Mounteds do more damage than foot. Shall I go on?

This whole "mounteds would disappear overnight" is just wrong. I'm not saying they are fine the way they are, because frankly I don't know. But I do know how they should be, and foot archers having a ranged knockdown that is very hard to pull off, such as a headshot on the rider, is not a ridiculous suggestion.

Even back in MO1 when we had dicerolls on dismounts, it wasn't that bad. It still took a quick coordination for the enemy to kill you before you could remount and ride off to safety.

Mounts need negatives. Certain terrain and getting pelted because you decide to ride solo isn't enough.

 

[Dracu]

Some random ideas for melee vs mounteds:

- horses will start to sway left and right when running close into the following weapon groups when in second and third gear. This will make aiming much harder.
- Spears
- Halberds
- Poleswords
> Horse blinders remove this behaviour from second gear. Mounted charge stays unaffected.

Dismounts:
Every weapon can now dismount based on a dmg threshold, this varys based on damage type and hitbox hit. Theres no more rng roll, hit these hitboxes with the appropriate dmg treshold for their type and its a dismount
Legs weak against slashing & blunt
Head weak against piercing & blunt
Body weak against blunt

Blunt stays king dismount weapon. But atleast gives the others a viable dismount option.

- horses coming to a stop on dmg recieved when not dismounted. There is a lower dmg treshold for not dismounting but stopping an enemy horse based on dmg.
> horse armor mitigates this effect
Light&no armor: full stop.
Medium: down to first tier speed
Heavy: down to second gear

Numbers? Idk! Not my job


Also remove 3rd tier speed from heavy armor, mounted charge still works but no 3rd gear in general... Want to be a tank? Then be a tank.

Do horse blinders still exist? Cant recall... XS

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

A headshot doesnt need an rng mechanic though. It needs increased dmg on a fixed basis like for example 20% more dmg or whatever number... The percentage might even be tied to the skill lvl... Not a weakspot percentage that maybe triggers and does more dmg and maybe not.... How would be a not triggering weakspot on a skillfully handled headshot be any good afterall... Thats bs.

Equipment hits arent nice because they are 100% random. Unless somebody can show me equipment hit blocking (not shield, they are fine in that regard) on purpose 3 times in a row in a normal fighting situation. Even 2 times should be near impossible.

Dura dmg is cool on paper. Would be cool as a proper mechanic IF the dura actually would get normalised and doesnt use a horrible formular... Cronite spear not even 200 dura... Yes SV great formular you got there... Steel spear... 120ish dura.... Cant remember exactly it was way to low... Amazing...

I would agree though on equipment hits if it was remade as a proper mechanic that can be influenced more... I would personally like chambering to be the replacement for equipment hits.


btw... What was this thread about? Broken anti dismount tools right? This derailed quite a bit...

RNG is a representation of not having full control over something. I like the combat being straight forward and not having rng yet i believe theres limitations towards what the client does, the server aknowledges and another client sees. Not saying RNG is there cuz arrow hitboxes behave like garbo, i believe the headshot weakspot was intended as RNG mechanic to forbid adding the eyes" or helmet cavities hitboxes, i mean you would have to be a surgeon to land a weakspot in the eyes of someone moving.

Now i have no issues with changing that rng factor to a very limited hitbox, but that would render weakspotting basically useless (taking all considerations, like shitty hitboxes for example or non existant ping normalization)

I agree, rng could get removed from weakspots aslong as theres a proper rework for the mechanics involved. And it would require a little more abstraction than just removing" the rng factor and scaling weakspot dmg on skill.

They lowered dura on everything for obvious reasons, to make shit break more and last less. This is a placeholder bandaid, because the actual dura mechanics are not there its just the husk of a system.

Dura mechanics need design and the rework of multiple placeholder features in the game, ideally not just normalizing" crona gear to high dura haha, in any case aslong as theres no proper dura mechanics, high tier shit should have garbo dura. Same as weapons that take lesser amounts of metal to make. But i agree theres things that have way less dura than other stuff and thats just, being neglectfull with the game design oh surprice lol.

I've seen a lot of people talking about chambering, i had to google what that "high tier pvper" thing. And apparently is the exact same as parry but instead of blocking you attacking and parrying" with an attack? watched a video of mordhau explaining.

Idk, it would surely add another layer of complexities (meh) to melee combat, but its hardly a solution to anything lol. There a lot of placeholder systems that either need to be removed or reworked entirely, before considering adding more shit into the steaming pile of poop.

It should go both ways. If a footie gets hit by a mid weight to heavy weapon while a mounted and is max speed charging or even the mount itself hitting the footie(like mounted charge in MO1) it should knockdown the footie for a short period. But if the rider gets hit by a mid weight to heavy weapon in the torso or head, even if the mount gets hit in the head - It should result in the mounted being dismounted. Risk vs Reward.

Ranged dismounts with blunt arrows can be easily balanced by adjusting the % value of hitting torso. Most people can barely hit a moving target 20 meters in front of them with a bow no matter if they're foot or mounted bowing someone, the projectile system throws them off. Shit, some people can't even hit a static target 20 meters in front of them lol Scaling it with strength means only long bows on foot would be reliable with torso hits to dismount and the longer draw times are apart of the balance. Only would be viable for asym & short bows with head shots.

The problem is, things need to be tested or things will either end up with Mounted being OP for longs periods(like MO1 for example) or having varying levels that yo yo between below average to potent(like in MO2). Rock-paper-scissors balance causes this, which is what SV has been dipping into with their current design and it doesn't work well. Do too much or too little to one race or "class" type and it disrupts the balance scale. There should be hard counters, but there should also be soft counters to make all builds and races have viability. Instead of this linear balance type that shoes horns people into a single cookie cutter build per race and causes no build diversity.

SV really needs to utilize a public test environment client, where they test PvP and PvE changes to get feedback on balance before implementing to live build.

Blunt arrows should dismount on very particular scenarios, not by rng tho. An arrow doesn't have the force a maul has, blunt arrows should work most on low HP targets. For example under 20% hp horse get hits by blunt arrows it would dismount the player, or a mounted player getting hit under 20% hp would get dismounted aswell, more like a finish off mechanic.
But i'd re-balance blunt arrows as a tool type of ammo for bows, in the sense it shouldn't do any damage, like very little (MO1) and decay faster than any other arrow, but would grant the ability to dismount people.


Also, yeah spears should be able to dismount, like the long promised "spear stance" skill in MO1 (or maybe i remember the name wrong) but it was supposed to make a player kinda sit and lock the spear on the ground, that should probably do massive damage and dismount players if actually landed.

I agree with Dracu, that nothing related to dismount should be RNG but should be instead stats based, on the type of horse, the armor, the lvl, the stats of the weapons its being hit.

And then other things like decreasing the speed on coallition/hits should be a thing exacly like momentum and shoving players with horses.

Theres so much to be done to mounteds so they are not trash lol.

 

[Hodo]

Sounds like youre thinking more 1v1. Mounted vs foot.

Mounteds should excel in groups. Mounteds excel in mobility. Mounteds excel in resetting a fight. Mounteds excel in not having to worry about player stamina. Mounteds do more damage than foot. Shall I go on?

This whole "mounteds would disappear overnight" is just wrong. I'm not saying they are fine the way they are, because frankly I don't know. But I do know how they should be, and foot archers having a ranged knockdown that is very hard to pull off, such as a headshot on the rider, is not a ridiculous suggestion.

Even back in MO1 when we had dicerolls on dismounts, it wasn't that bad. It still took a quick coordination for the enemy to kill you before you could remount and ride off to safety.

Mounts need negatives. Certain terrain and getting pelted because you decide to ride solo isn't enough.

It was dice rolls but it was also modified by your Balance skill and Knockdown Resistance. If they were both zero had a pretty good chance of getting dismounted. I had them maxed on my wheelchair mage on a high INT Molva and I couldnt be dismounted even with an EQ hit.

 

[ElPerro]

Poleaxes should dismount if they get a clean hit on the rider IMO

Thats what they were actually used for historically and it would justify the 200 points

 

[Hodo]

Poleaxes should dismount if they get a clean hit on the rider IMO

Thats what they were actually used for historically and it would justify the 200 points

Just wait that is a special skill when they get around to them.

 

[Emdash]

Its not really cheesing when you land skill shots to do more dmg or archive certain results. Its... skillfull play.

I assume you're really good and have played MO for a really long time, but I disagree with this point haha. Once you realize how to most easily do the 'skillful play" it becomes not about playing but rather doing what gets the most dmg. It becomes a play style which is cheesy. Like in basketball games, a pick and roll is a good play. Cross over dribble is a good play, but when the whole game becomes about doing cross over dribbles behind a pick and launching a 3 pointer, that's cheesy. That's the way a game gets kind of... hmm... pared down to not being interesting anymore and is all based on doing 'that skillful thing' or stopping it... can really be looked at as spinning atm. Except I still don't think spin itself is that wack.

The thing is, to contrast that skill with KNOWING each time you insert your dagger under someone's armor and simulate a more realistic result, you get RNG because it equalizes out. 3 pointers in gamz are based on how wide open you are and your release, but there is still a certain point where it won't let you make EVERY shot even with a perfect release. If you run the %s down within a more balanced, realistic curve.. like say 35%-60%, it makes the grand strategy aspect of the game more important because you can't DEPEND on it. You are thinking about all the weak spots or whatever that happen when you don't want them to, but you're not thinking about the fact that people could apply weak spots on demand. Skillful or not, I doubt people would be happy with that.

I mean, nobody will agree w/ me, but I see the point of RNG in competition, cuz like I said... people like to BELIEVE they are out skilling, but such things as macros, hax etc, become much more easy to see when something is rng because it won't get the result every time and arguably becomes something that can't be depended on. You can still have a RNG chance if you do the skillful play, but you can't DEPEND on it. Once you can depend on something, it becomes the only thing the game is about, in a serious competitive game. Games like MO aren't diverse enough imo; it's not like a really deep fighter or w/e. Think about walls, once people could depend on wall money, there was no reason to get better money. Or sarducca, same idea, except at least then you had to move it over the bridge.

Also re: hodo lol Arctic lyks, I miss MO1!

 

[Dracu]

I assume you're really good and have played MO for a really long time, but I disagree with this point haha. Once you realize how to most easily do the 'skillful play" it becomes not about playing but rather doing what gets the most dmg. It becomes a play style which is cheesy. Like in basketball games, a pick and roll is a good play. Cross over dribble is a good play, but when the whole game becomes about doing cross over dribbles behind a pick and launching a 3 pointer, that's cheesy. That's the way a game gets kind of... hmm... pared down to not being interesting anymore and is all based on doing 'that skillful thing' or stopping it... can really be looked at as spinning atm. Except I still don't think spin itself is that wack.

The thing is, to contrast that skill with KNOWING each time you insert your dagger under someone's armor and simulate a more realistic result, you get RNG because it equalizes out. 3 pointers in gamz are based on how wide open you are and your release, but there is still a certain point where it won't let you make EVERY shot even with a perfect release. If you run the %s down within a more balanced, realistic curve.. like say 35%-60%, it makes the grand strategy aspect of the game more important because you can't DEPEND on it. You are thinking about all the weak spots or whatever that happen when you don't want them to, but you're not thinking about the fact that people could apply weak spots on demand. Skillful or not, I doubt people would be happy with that.

I mean, nobody will agree w/ me, but I see the point of RNG in competition, cuz like I said... people like to BELIEVE they are out skilling, but such things as macros, hax etc, become much more easy to see when something is rng because it won't get the result every time and arguably becomes something that can't be depended on. You can still have a RNG chance if you do the skillful play, but you can't DEPEND on it. Once you can depend on something, it becomes the only thing the game is about, in a serious competitive game. Games like MO aren't diverse enough imo; it's not like a really deep fighter or w/e. Think about walls, once people could depend on wall money, there was no reason to get better money. Or sarducca, same idea, except at least then you had to move it over the bridge.

Also re: hodo lol Arctic lyks, I miss MO1!

Spinning is pretty whack, its somewhat skillfull but in the end its like you described... Muscle memory doing the same move again and again and again. I see what you mean. Yeah good point tbh. It might not add complexity but actually limit the "viable" moves available. Havent thought about it that way. But does it actually add complexity? Or reward skill... Comes down to implementation... But your point would have to be considered there aswell.

But the RNG doesnt add it either to be fair. You are still doing the same again and again, just that it sometimes does more and sometimes doesnt, just that it is completly out of your control.

Regarding macros and hacks, i have never seen any good player using either. Macros take controll away from you which is why nobody that is good would use them afaik.

But in the end... What does it matter... SV wont implement anything thats not based of mo1. Special attacks... They will add special attacks which were known in mo1 and then forget to implement the rest... Calling it now.

 

[Hodo]

Spinning is pretty whack, its somewhat skillfull but in the end its like you described... Muscle memory doing the same move again and again and again. I see what you mean. Yeah good point tbh. It might not add complexity but actually limit the "viable" moves available. Havent thought about it that way. But does it actually add complexity? Or reward skill... Comes down to implementation... But your point would have to be considered there aswell.

But the RNG doesnt add it either to be fair. You are still doing the same again and again, just that it sometimes does more and sometimes doesnt, just that it is completly out of your control.

Regarding macros and hacks, i have never seen any good player using either. Macros take controll away from you which is why nobody that is good would use them afaik.

But in the end... What does it matter... SV wont implement anything thats not based of mo1. Special attacks... They will add special attacks which were known in mo1 and then forget to implement the rest... Calling it now.

On the topic of macros... well you dont have to be "good" to use them, just better than the person you are using them on.

As for SV impementing anything from MO1.. us yeah... they will copy paste more from there with minor adjustments to make it "more accessible" for the masses.

 

[Dracu]

On the topic of macros... well you dont have to be "good" to use them, just better than the person you are using them on.

As for SV impementing anything from MO1.. us yeah... they will copy paste more from there with minor adjustments to make it "more accessible" for the masses.

I wonder if these macros even exist... I mean the ppl that spread the rumor didnt... Wonder if the ppl who actually believed it tried to make them... But then again... This might be a either side thinks that the other side has macros thing. I stick with they dont exist and are legit just a meme.

The counter feinting could propably be macroed properly though... But thats past my time xD

 

[Kaemik]

Sounds like youre thinking more 1v1. Mounted vs foot.

I'm talking mounted vs. foot in any amount of numbers. 1v1. 3v3. 5v5. 100v100. Foot is always going to come out on top unless the players behind the keyboard are completely and totally outclassed by the mounted players or caught in an incredibly rare situation that gives mounted the upper hand. I say incredibly rare because not only can you use nearly any terrain against mounted players if you know how. But on completely flat terrain a group of footies who work well in coordination can defeat a mounted force no matter how skilled and coordinated that mounted force is.

If you want to talk mixed forces, I still think 100% foot is more capable of winning fights than any combination of foot and mounted based on the current meta. A few mounted players are good in a fight that's already won to harass and slow fleeing enemies enough to get a few more kills.

Mounteds should excel in groups.

They do not. See above.

Mounteds excel in mobility.

Only in terms of speed. A foot build can jump off a cliff. A foot build can swim. A foot build can fight in urban environments. A foot build can make tight turns around obstacles. A foot build can jump over short obstacles like fences. A smart footbuild can find ways to lose a mounted player in 90% of the map easily with any level of intelligence and creativity. What it can't do is make it from MK to Fabernum as quickly without ghosting. And that's why mounted builds are currently popular.

Mounteds excel in resetting a fight.

Sure. I'll grant that one. If a fully mounted force skirmishes with their opponents and ride away with all horses surviving they can reset. Usually any competent foot force can take out at least one of their horses in any skirmish of any decent size though. At which point the dismounted player is vulnerable if their allies attempt to reset.

Mounteds excel in not having to worry about player stamina.

Just mount stamina, which regenerates far more slowly and needs to be even more carefully managed.

Mounteds do more damage than foot.

By what measure? Because if you think the average mounted player puts out more DPS than the average foot player during a fight you are absolutely freaking insane. Sure, MC and MM can hit harder than the meta builds of their footie counterparts if you're measuring the damage of a single attack. But those hits take a lot longer to get off. They aren't even in the same universe in terms of average damage/healing output by a competent player over the coarse of a fight. That's so damn wrong it hurts to think there is anyone in this game so out of touch as to believe it for half a second.

Shall I go on?

Please do. Maybe you can come up with a 2nd point that actually holds water?

This whole "mounteds would disappear overnight" is just wrong.

It's certainly a lot more correct than the idea mounted builds deal more damage. It's hyperbole but the reality is mounted builds are like Khurites. There are some people that have a poor enough understanding of the game to believe they are good. There are a few people willing to fight at a disadvantage for RP reasons. But once most the slower people in the community catch on about how bad they are they basically would die in the meta.

Except Khurites are way closer in power to meta melee builds than mounteds are to foot builds if not for the advantage of getting around the map faster. A decent Khurite build can still beat a meta build with just a moderate skill advantage in favor of the Khurite. For mounted builds to beat footies without numbers the skill advantage in their favor has to be MASSIVE.

I'm not saying they are fine the way they are, because frankly I don't know.

Clearly.

But I do know how they should be

Clearly not.

...and foot archers having a ranged knockdown that is very hard to pull off, such as a headshot on the rider, is not a ridiculous suggestion.

It's adding a massive weakness to an already massively underpowered playstyle. You're saying I'm the one thinking about 1v1s. If you're getting pelted by multiple foot archers and one manages a lucky hit that dismounts you, how do you rate your chances of your horse surviving while you remount and ride away? How do you rate your chances of surviving alone on foot as your allies ride off?

It's a death sentence. It doesn't belong in the game. Any more than stuns and the other hard CC trash that plagues most tab-targeted MMOs.

Mounts need negatives. Certain terrain and getting pelted because you decide to ride solo isn't enough.

If you actually played a mounted build, you would realize they have many negatives, and they are perfectly sufficient. What they are sorely lacking is strengths to round out those weaknesses with the single exception of faster map travel.

What needs to happen to mounted builds is passenger capable mounts that can keep pace with steppe horses added to allow 0 controlled riding builds to traverse the map quickly as a part of a group, and then real PvP relevant strengths added to these incredibly gimped dumpster tier builds. Mounts need actual roles on the battlefield that make them worth considering for anything more than their ability to cross the map and run away.

Currently mounted builds can only defeat footie builds with overwhelming numbers. And they're definitely going to lose a few horses in fights that a similarly sized footie group could easily win without losses.