I dont feel the need to compare it to any other game, still all the same genre tho (no idea what genre elden ring is never seen it).
What would revitalize MO2? Just some thoughts...
- Thread starter Aegis301
- Start date
I always refer to the rat study where scientists were studying socialisation in rats. A large part of socialisation in rat communities is play and they studied it in detail.
In part of the research they studied the play between a small rat and a much larger rat. The large rat could easily win every time but the smaller rat would eventually stop playing. So the larger rat would occasionally let the smaller rat win so it would keep playing. This actually produced a statistical constant where the large rats would allow smaller rats to win approximately 30% of the time. That way the big rat always had someone to play with. Everyone won that way. The bigger rat asserted it's dominance while both rats were still involved in the play.
It seems that a lot of players attracted to games like MO2 want to break that basic rule of socialisation. They want to win every time and they don't care if they end up with no one to play with. It's really a social dysfunction akin to sociopathy or psychopathy.
It's kind of sad that we can see better socialisation in rats that we can in some people online.
That is a very unusual and interesting rat study, is there an url to it, or at least a name that can be google searched?
It's been a while since I read the original study. I think this article covers it as well as other material references.
The neurobiology of social play and its rewarding value in rats
In the young of many mammalian species, including humans, a vigorous and highly rewarding social activity is abundantly expressed, known as social play behaviour. Social play is thought to be important for the development of social, cognitive and emotional ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Letting people win in a competetive setting is not a win win. its a mega failure. I would seriously take great offense if someone let me win.
Being comeptetive does not equal "a social dysfunction akin to sociopathy or psychopathy."
participation awards are for losers.
D
Dracu
Guest
The article is about the effects of various drugs on rats' responsive behaviour in test environments and the study of neural patterns. I did not see anywhere about a larger rat voluntarily letting a smaller rat win from time to time in a competitive setting.It's been a while since I read the original study. I think this article covers it as well as other material references.
The neurobiology of social play and its rewarding value in rats
In the young of many mammalian species, including humans, a vigorous and highly rewarding social activity is abundantly expressed, known as social play behaviour. Social play is thought to be important for the development of social, cognitive and emotional ...
Lol. It's a game. It's the very definition of play. You introduced competition because the game doesn't. There are no leaderboards and you don't win anything in real life. The competition is in your own head.
What has always made EvE work is that player has the option to choose an area that fits his playstyle, while having a big incentive to be in more dangerous areas and that is the part mortal I lacking a lot.
EvE first and albion second are so far basically the only full loot sandbox games to be quite successful also in numbers so far, both using a very similar systems for pve, pvp and empire play styles.
I am here as mortal is the most immersive one with 1st person and the like but wish they would have leaned more towards eve and albion for these systems.
In Eve while it is true that you can also kill ships in empire space it takes a serious effort and losses (all attacking ships lost 100%) to do so as long it is a somewhat tanky ship without a wardec. In general tho hardly anyone will bother you a lot. In mortal not so much, especially as a lot just hunger for killing something no matter what.
In mortal your empire space is basically the city, all the rest is like low sec or maybe even more like 0.0 in eve as the MC/rep system is way to forgiving in regards to harrasing small guilds, or loners while not promoting guild VS guild pvp as well.
I think going red should be a longer lasting, very different playstyle choice and not the grind rep, still stay blue system where you pk a bit and go back to pve parcel mode while hindering guild fights.
I personally think the key for mortal will be how they will accomplish the coexistence of the different playstyles like pve, pvp, pk, empire etc... and I doubt a bounty system and even TC alone will do as long there isn't different rules for different areas where some are safer and others very dangerous.
It's sharing its stash! Dudes who have been getting Ws all their life know you gotta let people win or nobody plays with you, or you gotta just put yourself at a high disadvantage and still give yourself a possibility of winning. So at least the other person feels like they might win, and some times you fuck up and they do win, so it's actually good for both parties. Obviously, best option is good v good but that's not as common as it seems in large groups. Everyone wants to play, you know?
I don't understand the psyche of MO kids, though; I feel like the majority of the playerbase is of the "yea, boss, let's get em boss" ilk. The whole zerg alliance thing is what is not re-created in rat environments. Few people wanna play the game as a challenge, they just want to win and get easy gains.
That's not what's wrong with the game though. I definitely prefer alt servers. It's not really more/less dangerous on one or the other now that there are only 2, but main is a joke in terms of lag and TC looks like shit. I really think they should find a way, as I said, to create a perma alt server. Maybe let you keep your char, but not your bank, no TC, more open pvp rule set. MO is a fun game when it's not lagging like a bitch.
queuing into a game with 2200 people on is wack. Hard spike lag is wack. Couple that with gimped pvp, various imbalances that still haven't been addressed, poor economy (cuz of missing features, buy orders for instance), and lack of content/systems, it's pretty obvious how to revitalize the game: make it better. Fix the problems. Unfortunately, since that's OUT as a solution, it's really tough. Gotta think wayyy outside the box to find out how to make people wanna play the game. There's no reason why 5000 people or so shouldn't be playing this game, at least once concurrently on a daily basis. It's a damn shame, and it's due to so many bugs, bad game play, lag, whatever...
But I for one am not attached to the empire building aspect. Maybe they could reduce the lag by letting the empire builders have their 'main server' with a complex war dec system, and letting more open world pvp/survivalists have their own server with loosened pvp restrictions. Main isn't even fully crammed and it's already laggy as hell. They need some solution to have multiple servers, some people might enjoy playing 'lord of the lagfest', but I doubt many will; that's just raw fax. Sorry brose.
Edit: and w/ 0 experience in Eve/Albion (but I mean I know enough to say this), the fact that they are more successful (execution wise, the janky nature of MO is always gonna make it a niche game) is ALSO a damn shame. In no world should a game like EVE (practically inactive) or Albion (more like MOBA) be more immersive than FIRST PERSON ACTION BASED COMBAT. IZ A FUCKIN JOKE KIDS. A real life fucking joke. And this is what happens when I come to the forums. BAW.
I think the simplest way to fix the alignment at the moment is to introduce war and war declaration. Zero penalties for guild on guild war/PvP. That alone would massively change the dynamic of current PvP.
Since darkfall when you let's say invaded enemy territory and could hear the combat noise on the other side of a hill and had to sneak around the terrain to ambush someone I really had a hard time playing something like eve or albion where the immersion is really lacking in comparison.
Hope lies in mortal now
Oh look another one.....
Another person who points to the Steam charts and starts saying the sky is falling. First, let me point out a cold hard fact, Mortal Online is not for everyone. A large number of "hype" players and streamers are going to jump on the new thing in hopes of finding something new or to leave a mark or to make a few dollars off of. Many of these people vanish after 30-60days, in most cases it is a solid average of 40-60% of the initial numbers drop off. This has been a fact since the early 2000s in MMOs. The launch numbers of World of Warcraft and retention numbers after 60 days were completely different, it didnt start growing till several months after its launch. Blizzard had massive server issues that plagued that game for nearly six months. Everquest, Asheron's Call, hell even Final Fantasy Online all had massive drops after the first 30-60 days. This was originally thought because that was the "free trial" period. But in fact it is all of the hype players and usually in that time frame something new has come out for them to gravitate towards. I personally call these "hype" players locusts, because they are nothing more than a plague on gaming.
Well that's not true for old MMOs. These games grew steadily for years until a newer game launched.
Not everyone had a gaming PC or even internet access so it was just hobbyists and not the general public yet.
Twitch didn't exist. Youtube wasn't around until 2005. We had gaming magazines
Ultima Online launched in 1997 and peaked in 2001 with 250,000 subs.
Asheron's Call launched in 1999 and peaked in 2001 with 120,000 subs.
Everquest launched in 1999 and peaked in 2004 with 550,000 subs.
WoW launched in 2004 and peaked in 2008 with 12,000,000 subs.
The streamer powered hype train is relatively new.
Take New World for example, super overhyped, sold over a million copies, and lost 96% of players in 6 months.
MO2 wasn't hyped up, SV purposefully didn't advertise to avoid it.
So you've got a lot of genuinely interested players buying Mortal and leaving due to real issues like server capacity, bugs, lack of content and shitty game mechanics.
As for the whole PVP, carebear, griefing discussion. Encouraging hardcore PVP is one thing. Having new or solo players leigitimately stuck in a town unable to play the game or do anything because a gank squad of 20 plus bored griefers are spread aorund the three or so exits just waiting to jump anyone that comes out with flattening numerical advantage to kill them over and over again is another. There's no challenge in it, and players have to essentially log off and wait for the siege to pass to play at all.
The way to address it might indeed be through better content and more rewarding gameplay options for pvpers and guilds to battle each other for resources rather than just have them boredly make it impossible for individuals or newer players to effectively play the game in any real capacity.
The way to address it might indeed be through better content and more rewarding gameplay options for pvpers and guilds to battle each other for resources rather than just have them boredly make it impossible for individuals or newer players to effectively play the game in any real capacity.
Well that's not true for old MMOs. These games grew steadily for years until a newer game launched.
Not everyone had a gaming PC or even internet access so it was just hobbyists and not the general public yet.
Twitch didn't exist. Youtube wasn't around until 2005. We had gaming magazines
Ultima Online launched in 1997 and peaked in 2001 with 250,000 subs.
Asheron's Call launched in 1999 and peaked in 2001 with 120,000 subs.
Everquest launched in 1999 and peaked in 2004 with 550,000 subs.
WoW launched in 2004 and peaked in 2008 with 12,000,000 subs.
The streamer powered hype train is relatively new.
Take New World for example, super overhyped, sold over a million copies, and lost 96% of players in 6 months.
MO2 wasn't hyped up, SV purposefully didn't advertise to avoid it.
So you've got a lot of genuinely interested players buying Mortal and leaving due to real issues like server capacity, bugs, lack of content and shitty game mechanics.
Notice I said 30-60 days after release. Not 4 years after release. Hell EVE Online didnt hit its peak till 3-4 years after release. While there wasn't streamers back then there was websites like Kotaku, MMORPG. com, TenTonHammer and the like. They would often send out email alerts for new beta tests, new releases, whats hot, whats not. Then there was CNET TV, G4TV.... yep those existed and werent woke.
What?
Ultima, Everquest, Asheron's Call, EVE, DaoC and FF11 all retained players.
Age of Conan plummeted because it sucked.
No need to ramble about wokeness here, save it for facebook.
None of those graphs show the fine details of month to month. I can remember playing AC at launch and watching half my guild vanish into the either when subs started after the 30 day trial. Samething happened in DaoC, and EVE. Wasnt there for launch of Everquest but I had friends who played who said the samething happened to them. It is a trend that his been around since the earliest days of MMO gaming.
Kids are gonna get zerged. Kids are gonna do things like camp the jungle path (ahem!) Just the nature of EZ gains.
As a new player, you have to come into the game and decide WHERE YOU WANT TO LIVE, check out the "political" landscape, and then find a way to progress. If you wanna farm stacks of mats like low tier stuff, razors, whatever, that's cool, to a point, but unless it's as a means to get geared and enter a pvp guild or w/e, it's not really smart game play. Doesn't mean you should never do it.
However, you should come in and find your niche. Check the market, check what people want, fill those needs. There exist a lot of problems gating this and most things that aren't hard spec (like true bowyery/hard cook/hard alchemy) and relatively useless in terms of self sufficiency are not going to be fruitful market endeavors because of competition.
The reason why this is... is SV. Lack of content. So much wood, nothing to carve with it. Bows, very little differents cept certain ones. Mats, very little difference (in crafting.) No jewelry stuff, dunno if you can make furniture/workbenches or not, no cape crafting, tailoring, etc etc. Many mats that are not useful other than being lesser versions of another mat, like incis/ironbone/molarium. QL/GroundFur.
It might sound like I'm rambling, and I probably am, but this means that there are only so many niches that can be filled. Take your zergs, that's life. But the game is lacking imaginative money making for new players. Most new players are gonna quit, but even stuff like breeding. Sure, there was an end game to horses, but there wasn't to molvas or lyks. There were so many diff types, wts, strs (to affect 2nd/regen.) It was the same with horses, but it was mostly a certain 'type' of bull that got the most love. If you were messing w/ str/wt on them, you could still make noticeable differences.
So, there are just not things for new players to dedicate themselves to. It's a lot different to inspire oneself when you are on the cusp of making a breakthrough or you just need x more mats to produce something than it is to be like... welp time for another run at the razors to get 15g, you know? Not to mention, a lot of that is prolly going straight 2 vendor which is pretty trash mojo for economy.
People need more things to do, more ways to do them, more places to do them. Alchemy Healing being hard locked behind salvia and sea dew base is FAIL design. Especially considering they aren't that many places. If you could like combine poison mushrooms with spongewood or something to make a 'not bad' healing base, or higher tier mats for a mid between leaves n oil... it would open it up a lot and allow for a lot more people to have 'jobs.'
Right now the game is just jokey with content. Most of the money making is grind variants. I'm lucky I enjoy strolling about and doing this and that so it doesn't feel like grind to me, and I've got 2 chars and many different things I do, but... for a new player who is getting stuffed when he leaves town, that 'dream' has not even begun to form.
Also stop explaining away the pop drop, that shit is significant haha. There is a reason. It's not just normal variance.
2c.
As a new player, you have to come into the game and decide WHERE YOU WANT TO LIVE, check out the "political" landscape, and then find a way to progress. If you wanna farm stacks of mats like low tier stuff, razors, whatever, that's cool, to a point, but unless it's as a means to get geared and enter a pvp guild or w/e, it's not really smart game play. Doesn't mean you should never do it.
However, you should come in and find your niche. Check the market, check what people want, fill those needs. There exist a lot of problems gating this and most things that aren't hard spec (like true bowyery/hard cook/hard alchemy) and relatively useless in terms of self sufficiency are not going to be fruitful market endeavors because of competition.
The reason why this is... is SV. Lack of content. So much wood, nothing to carve with it. Bows, very little differents cept certain ones. Mats, very little difference (in crafting.) No jewelry stuff, dunno if you can make furniture/workbenches or not, no cape crafting, tailoring, etc etc. Many mats that are not useful other than being lesser versions of another mat, like incis/ironbone/molarium. QL/GroundFur.
It might sound like I'm rambling, and I probably am, but this means that there are only so many niches that can be filled. Take your zergs, that's life. But the game is lacking imaginative money making for new players. Most new players are gonna quit, but even stuff like breeding. Sure, there was an end game to horses, but there wasn't to molvas or lyks. There were so many diff types, wts, strs (to affect 2nd/regen.) It was the same with horses, but it was mostly a certain 'type' of bull that got the most love. If you were messing w/ str/wt on them, you could still make noticeable differences.
So, there are just not things for new players to dedicate themselves to. It's a lot different to inspire oneself when you are on the cusp of making a breakthrough or you just need x more mats to produce something than it is to be like... welp time for another run at the razors to get 15g, you know? Not to mention, a lot of that is prolly going straight 2 vendor which is pretty trash mojo for economy.
People need more things to do, more ways to do them, more places to do them. Alchemy Healing being hard locked behind salvia and sea dew base is FAIL design. Especially considering they aren't that many places. If you could like combine poison mushrooms with spongewood or something to make a 'not bad' healing base, or higher tier mats for a mid between leaves n oil... it would open it up a lot and allow for a lot more people to have 'jobs.'
Right now the game is just jokey with content. Most of the money making is grind variants. I'm lucky I enjoy strolling about and doing this and that so it doesn't feel like grind to me, and I've got 2 chars and many different things I do, but... for a new player who is getting stuffed when he leaves town, that 'dream' has not even begun to form.
Also stop explaining away the pop drop, that shit is significant haha. There is a reason. It's not just normal variance.
2c.