If the game is going persistent with no more wipes at EA then the game is being released at EA imo. Its already on steam so there will be no steam release this time, and the reviews it gets in EA will be really its only chance. If it flops in ea its flopping in “release”.
What must be in game for Persistent?
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If the game is going persistent with no more wipes at EA then the game is being released at EA imo. Its already on steam so there will be no steam release this time, and the reviews it gets in EA will be really its only chance. If it flops in ea its flopping in “release”.
I think this is a worthy point to discuss as well. Theoretically, there is a big difference between Early Access and Full Release, with the former being a category restricted to games that ready to be commercialized, but not yet entirely developed. I can imagine a world where SV decides not to go into early access, keep the game in closed beta for as long as it think it is possible, and then skip right into full release. I can imagine it, but I don't think that this will happen.
For no other reason than being a safer, more tiered path to release, I believe they will keep in Beta until all release systems (whatever they may be) are in place and major bugs are fixed. Then they will do the final wipe, go into Early Access, and starting to charge subscriptions, but under a clear banner that this is still under development. At this point, pretty much only the current player base would be aware of MO2, and these players would be paying for the possibility to start progressing their characters immediately but would have to deal with some bugs and unpolished systems. Then, after some time in early access, they would kick off the marketing strategy and prepare for the grand opening, That's how I see this going. Thoughts?
Keeps, fix pets/mounted, full criminal system perfected, fix and perfect clade gifts, fix and perfect skills and bugs with skills not working properly (butchery and ore extraction for example), balance bows and races, and load lines, full fleshed out tutorial that's less open and free to skip more step by step, flushed out world full of ai and some dungeons. probably more but these are minimal to launch. Anything less messes up balance and choices in game giving advantages to some or causing people to quit.
I would Argue Player housing should be added to the list as it gives the ability to actually move away from cities for individuals and guilds which gives more for people to do/goals for groups to drive forwards with. This housing system could be very basic and not fully comprehensive at this time.
The thing is SV has already stated that it will not be in the game at persistance
Wow, this is a darn good list! I think we have reflected all of this in our list, except for the Keeps. Henrik mentioned it will not be ready for Day1 because it is an end-game feature and thus, no one will miss it anyway. I do hope, however, they don't take years to implement it!
Exactly! That's the reason we are not adding to the list: Henrik has addressed this during his lives, stating that this is an end-game feature and thus they can implement later and focus on more crucial things for the beginning of the progression of the characters
I disagree with Henrik here. It took a day for people to earn 400g and they could have done more and mostly that was just from skeletons, 5k isn't that much more and for red players it's pretty much a requirement. Not to mention the knowledge of that being available for new players compared to just Vets.
you say that but you can literally dismount and fight. you can shoot, swing, etc. in the water if your being chased you could argue "well just get out" but there are times where you literally can't get out. point being you can fight back on land, you can't in water. ranged combat is a secondary so anyone can use a bow, magic takes multiple primaries.
I understand the idea I’m just saying even though its going to be called an EA its still going to be the release because there will be no wipes after EA the general public will consider this as the release and grade the game on that especially since it will be full price. They wont have the same attention they have now 6months to a year down the line if they botch the “EA”. Few people will want to start a game knowing they will be losing every battle to the geared people who have figured out the game. I mean i did with mo1 but still most people wont. So I guess I’m trying to say SV needs to make sure their “EA” release is pretty on point or they may not get a second chance with this attention at “release”
Imo TC really should be ingame because its what gives people something to work/fight, a month or two after ea with no TC in a game that really has little to no grind and no quests will see a huge drop off in player base.
You are saying that build a house would cost 5K gold, is that it? If so, where did you get that number, do you mind sharing?
I understand that you're saying "housing was already said to not make it before beta", but housing ABSOLUTELY needs to be beta tested prior to the game launching. The game doesn't have to launch with housing, but the system needs to be excruciatingly beta tested by players (not in house) prior to game launch. If there is a run at this game and 10,000 players sign up, and there are any issues with housing (bugs exploits), you will see a massive loss of player retention. Housing is the only thing in game that can destroy the world, bc it's semi-permanent, if there are issues when it launches. It's also the one thing that would lead to an early wipe.
Personally, I believe that the development team has a choice to make. They can go the route of MO 1 and keep the game "hardcore for hardcore's sake", or as I like to call it "hard on hard on hard." Or if they want to make the minor changes that will assist new player retention. If they want to keep it hard on hard, they can just continue on the path and let the 500 players white-knight defend everyone who has a legitimate gripe about the game. I will outline below a few of the things that new players will have issues with and could be fixed very easily.
The main thing they need to do is decrease the time that it takes to accomplish anything. The world has been made far too large for how fast our characters move. Horses should be in every major town that can be tamed. Having to travel 30 minutes to tame a horse (in all cities except Meduli) is a bad system, and you will find that most new players who aren't hooked on the idea of it being "hard on hard" quit due to the time commitment to do the most basic things. This isn't saying that everything should be easy, before you jump in and defend it. It's just a matter of time commitment just to do things like get a horse. Additionally, there should be specific mounts who lose basically no stamina but have very little health. It is NOT exciting gameplay to have to trout on a horse, or even stand still, while their stamina increases slowly because the world has been made so massive.
I personally believe there should be a global chat. It's not something I would debate, but you have to understand that there is now a global help chat, and a global guild chat. Because these two things exist, it is absurd to say that global chat can no longer exist due to 'realism". You have thrown the realism portion of the game out of the window because global guild and global help exist. Global chat would not break the game whatsoever. What it does, is give un-guilded players a communication method without having to use Discord.
Cartography should be a PASSIVE ability and all characters should have a completely empty world map (at the very least, art with the major guarded towns.) This map should be able to add all of your own markers. Again, we have to understand that Mortal Online map exists, and 90% of the userbase will use it. The idea of 'no map is hard' does not effect most players, it only effects new players who don't know to look at a third party map. It's absurd. If we want cartography to be an active ability, that's also fine, but it needs to have the exact same functionality as mortal online map.The better system is everyone has a custom map and it doesn't require skills. Again, EVERYONE has a map, it's called Mortal Online Map, not giving everyone in game a map is just 'hard for the sake of hard". If the mortal online map did not exist, I would have a different opinion on this, and I like the overall theory of cartography being in game, but the existance of the third party map just makes it annoying having to alt tab, and give a bonus to anyone with a third party set up.
A marker should pop up on compass to show your last death location. Most people will waste hours looking for their last death. This is not a fun game mechanic. Just the fact that the game is full loot /loot drop and you have to run back for your loot is enough difficulty. This is called a quality of life change that does not make the game any easier. Less frustrating is not the same as making the game easier. Difficulty grows players, frustration sheds players.
In order to move the game population out of Fab/Meduli, the games basic resources (up to steel, for example), need to be spread more closely to all cities (both red & guarded). You have to understand that, as a crafter, it takes hours to farm enough materials from nothing to steel. Having to travel 30 minutes from GK to get Calx to make steel is not fun. You are already spending hours busting the rocks alone. Alot of the issue here has to do with the map changes, but there is also a very skewed material allowance to the west side of map. i'm not saying this is a finished system, just that it needs to be looked at.
Finally, I will make my last suspension of disbelief argument. If we can teleport to home priest, we should be able to teleport to any priest (at least those that we have unlocked). Again, we have to understand that teleportation already exists in game, through the teleport to home priest option. We can also ghost run to any priest in the game, it is just a massive amount of time spent to do these runs. When we arrive in those locations, we still have to build up our bank there: teleporting changes NOTHING other than SAVING THE PLAYERS TIME. The preference here would be the ability to teleport, with no inventory weight, via portals that mages could make in a city. This would also allow guilds to rally easily. I understand that this will never happen. I am just telling you that the suspension of disbelief is totally gone when teleport to home priest exists but I have to suicide + ghost run to get anywhere within any meaningful amount of time.
If we are saying that this is not MO 1, this is a new game, and MO 2 wants a substantially larger player bases, changes like this have to be made for player retention. Otherwise you will have the same player base from the first one, but paying for 4x accounts each, which might be the ultimate goal here anyway.
Personally, I believe that the development team has a choice to make. They can go the route of MO 1 and keep the game "hardcore for hardcore's sake", or as I like to call it "hard on hard on hard." Or if they want to make the minor changes that will assist new player retention. If they want to keep it hard on hard, they can just continue on the path and let the 500 players white-knight defend everyone who has a legitimate gripe about the game. I will outline below a few of the things that new players will have issues with and could be fixed very easily.
The main thing they need to do is decrease the time that it takes to accomplish anything. The world has been made far too large for how fast our characters move. Horses should be in every major town that can be tamed. Having to travel 30 minutes to tame a horse (in all cities except Meduli) is a bad system, and you will find that most new players who aren't hooked on the idea of it being "hard on hard" quit due to the time commitment to do the most basic things. This isn't saying that everything should be easy, before you jump in and defend it. It's just a matter of time commitment just to do things like get a horse. Additionally, there should be specific mounts who lose basically no stamina but have very little health. It is NOT exciting gameplay to have to trout on a horse, or even stand still, while their stamina increases slowly because the world has been made so massive.
I personally believe there should be a global chat. It's not something I would debate, but you have to understand that there is now a global help chat, and a global guild chat. Because these two things exist, it is absurd to say that global chat can no longer exist due to 'realism". You have thrown the realism portion of the game out of the window because global guild and global help exist. Global chat would not break the game whatsoever. What it does, is give un-guilded players a communication method without having to use Discord.
Cartography should be a PASSIVE ability and all characters should have a completely empty world map (at the very least, art with the major guarded towns.) This map should be able to add all of your own markers. Again, we have to understand that Mortal Online map exists, and 90% of the userbase will use it. The idea of 'no map is hard' does not effect most players, it only effects new players who don't know to look at a third party map. It's absurd. If we want cartography to be an active ability, that's also fine, but it needs to have the exact same functionality as mortal online map.The better system is everyone has a custom map and it doesn't require skills. Again, EVERYONE has a map, it's called Mortal Online Map, not giving everyone in game a map is just 'hard for the sake of hard". If the mortal online map did not exist, I would have a different opinion on this, and I like the overall theory of cartography being in game, but the existance of the third party map just makes it annoying having to alt tab, and give a bonus to anyone with a third party set up.
A marker should pop up on compass to show your last death location. Most people will waste hours looking for their last death. This is not a fun game mechanic. Just the fact that the game is full loot /loot drop and you have to run back for your loot is enough difficulty. This is called a quality of life change that does not make the game any easier. Less frustrating is not the same as making the game easier. Difficulty grows players, frustration sheds players.
In order to move the game population out of Fab/Meduli, the games basic resources (up to steel, for example), need to be spread more closely to all cities (both red & guarded). You have to understand that, as a crafter, it takes hours to farm enough materials from nothing to steel. Having to travel 30 minutes from GK to get Calx to make steel is not fun. You are already spending hours busting the rocks alone. Alot of the issue here has to do with the map changes, but there is also a very skewed material allowance to the west side of map. i'm not saying this is a finished system, just that it needs to be looked at.
Finally, I will make my last suspension of disbelief argument. If we can teleport to home priest, we should be able to teleport to any priest (at least those that we have unlocked). Again, we have to understand that teleportation already exists in game, through the teleport to home priest option. We can also ghost run to any priest in the game, it is just a massive amount of time spent to do these runs. When we arrive in those locations, we still have to build up our bank there: teleporting changes NOTHING other than SAVING THE PLAYERS TIME. The preference here would be the ability to teleport, with no inventory weight, via portals that mages could make in a city. This would also allow guilds to rally easily. I understand that this will never happen. I am just telling you that the suspension of disbelief is totally gone when teleport to home priest exists but I have to suicide + ghost run to get anywhere within any meaningful amount of time.
If we are saying that this is not MO 1, this is a new game, and MO 2 wants a substantially larger player bases, changes like this have to be made for player retention. Otherwise you will have the same player base from the first one, but paying for 4x accounts each, which might be the ultimate goal here anyway.
Yeah, I get they are trying REALLY hard to divide the idea between Persistent and Release, but here is the thing.
If I join a game on release, I join because I want to be in on the first day that matters. And I'm willing to pay 15$ a month to do that.
If it's a "release" but people have already been playing for months or years, have banks full of resources to show for it, and they've been paying a 15$ a month sub the whole time... precisely what about that "release" makes it more of a "release" than the day persistent hit, as opposed to just an expansion?
I'm fine with this being an early access title. But as far as I am concerned, persistent = release and anyone saying otherwise is just playing word games.
Like didn't Darkfall never officially end their "beta" before they shut down and released Unholy Wars? Isn't Ark Survival still technically in beta with their last expansion and an Ark 2 on the way? Game Developers do love their word games. But when we are promised the game will never wipe again, that's what release really means to me.
Additionally, I completely agree with the argument that EA = release. And the devs need to understand this. Steam EA allows reviews, refunds, and everything a normal game does. There will NOT be a true release for this game. It needs to develop as long as it can, possibly 2 more years, before launching on steam. At this point it can still put the EA tag on, but it is far more likely to retain players. If Valheim had launched EA with 1 boss it would have been a failure, but they found a good middle ground for EA and it was a massive success. There are so many things in the current game that will cause people to buy this EA and refund due to frustration. Haven island definitely helps this, but there needs to overall be a lot more physical tutorials in Haven, like optional scripted training sessions, and PVP dueling so that people can train in Haven and not be thrown into the real world. Making the dungeon in Haven PVP-live (maybe no killing blows?) would be a good training ground as well.
The team can certainly create more than enough income to finish the game on by continuing to sell keys, market, and create a better website for the game (it's currently very confusing buying keys on MO 1, as can be seen with people buying character slots and asking about it). The can do a stress test every 6 months, or whatever, and 10% of those players will definitely buy keys to continue playing.
The team can certainly create more than enough income to finish the game on by continuing to sell keys, market, and create a better website for the game (it's currently very confusing buying keys on MO 1, as can be seen with people buying character slots and asking about it). The can do a stress test every 6 months, or whatever, and 10% of those players will definitely buy keys to continue playing.
The problem with your logic is that it's not about keeping the players that would play it anyway (me and you). It's about mass customer retention. Most players will NOT pay a subscription nowadays, period. Asking someone to pay a subscription, who is not already a player, on an unfinished (or perceived as unfinished) game is literally impossible. Realistically they would do better as buy-to-play, but we all know that won't happen.
The majority of this games sales will be in first week. If only 10% of those players pay for a second month, I would consider the game a failure.
I'm hoping all of the random ruins are turned into dungeons!I was there as well and remember all those conversations.
The reality is that PvE never got close to what SV originally intended in MO1. Part of that, I think, was that the AI tech was too new. That, and the way they created "server nodes" using UE3 when it was not designed for made it not very feasible. Today, however, the tables have turned and I am really excited to see lots of PVE this time around....especially with the landmass being so large.
Personally I've never had a problem with whatever SV has decided to call each stage of development working towards the launch. I don't think it matters...I mean it obviously matters to some people who get hung up on semantics, but to me it doesn't because they've been open and forthcoming about what's going to happen, what it includes, and I know what my money is buying.
Given all that I think I understand why Henrik doesn't want to call the persistent launch "release". I think it's because he sees MO2 as the continued evolution of the old game, but it's impossible to have all the content available day 1 that MO has at it's sunsetting, so we're not going to be playing something that he considers even close to the full game, and we won't for sometime.
So the question is just if they have enough content and systems available to keep players interested, and I don't think they do as of right now. But I also don't think they are that far off.
There has to be more to do than skill up a character, grind resources, and fight other players.
Housing and keeps provide longer term goals for players and guilds, and gives resources more meaning in the world. It gives something to fight over. Gathering enough resources in gold and materials to build a keep or a house for smaller groups takes time and gets a whole group working together towards a goal which is good for team building.
Having your own corner of this huge world to live in and develop or control is also a good long term goal that only the housing and keep/basic TC system can add. So these systems are incredibly important to retaining players and SV should not go persistent without them, it will only hurt them in the long run imo.
But whoever just suggested they should add Calx to GK can kick rocks....the area already has exclusive access to the best minerals and the appliances to process them to the highest end alloys....they also made other really bad suggestions imo.
They do need to work on the map and add a ton more POIs....a ton more. As many have mentioned already, the jungle needs more than scales, alchemy materials and a dungeon....
But also that whole region on the eastern side south of MK to the jungle border...basically the eastern third of the map and lower needs a ton added to flesh it out, there's way too much repetitive nothingness for large portions of the map just like it was in MO...if you're not going to do anything with it...have another conflux and sink it into the ocean or something because what's the point of it? No one should waste their time running thru there
Given all that I think I understand why Henrik doesn't want to call the persistent launch "release". I think it's because he sees MO2 as the continued evolution of the old game, but it's impossible to have all the content available day 1 that MO has at it's sunsetting, so we're not going to be playing something that he considers even close to the full game, and we won't for sometime.
So the question is just if they have enough content and systems available to keep players interested, and I don't think they do as of right now. But I also don't think they are that far off.
There has to be more to do than skill up a character, grind resources, and fight other players.
Housing and keeps provide longer term goals for players and guilds, and gives resources more meaning in the world. It gives something to fight over. Gathering enough resources in gold and materials to build a keep or a house for smaller groups takes time and gets a whole group working together towards a goal which is good for team building.
Having your own corner of this huge world to live in and develop or control is also a good long term goal that only the housing and keep/basic TC system can add. So these systems are incredibly important to retaining players and SV should not go persistent without them, it will only hurt them in the long run imo.
But whoever just suggested they should add Calx to GK can kick rocks....the area already has exclusive access to the best minerals and the appliances to process them to the highest end alloys....they also made other really bad suggestions imo.
They do need to work on the map and add a ton more POIs....a ton more. As many have mentioned already, the jungle needs more than scales, alchemy materials and a dungeon....
But also that whole region on the eastern side south of MK to the jungle border...basically the eastern third of the map and lower needs a ton added to flesh it out, there's way too much repetitive nothingness for large portions of the map just like it was in MO...if you're not going to do anything with it...have another conflux and sink it into the ocean or something because what's the point of it? No one should waste their time running thru there
basic housing, 2nd magic school, polished criminal system at the least need to be in at EA launch. Not to mention fixing various bugs.
Right now gold does not matter. But once persistence hits, it will matter because guilds are going to be saving up for TC. That being said, the most important thing we need in persistence is indeed a Trade Broker House. A good Economy is going to be the key to keeping PVErs active. Many of them would rather be taming and breeding mounts instead of delving dungeons. Also Extractors are going to want to make profit off their hard work and they can do that easily through a Trade Broker.
#2 before mounted combat, there should be a portable crusher and furnace merchant in all the cities. This will help the economy as well.
#3 Mount bags and mount armor. (with hopes that the horse glitch will be solved by persistence)
#4 Mounted combat. Let's fix the mounts first before we try to implement combat on them.
#2 before mounted combat, there should be a portable crusher and furnace merchant in all the cities. This will help the economy as well.
#3 Mount bags and mount armor. (with hopes that the horse glitch will be solved by persistence)
#4 Mounted combat. Let's fix the mounts first before we try to implement combat on them.