Two potential game issues related to PvP I've run into so far in stress test

[Darthus]

Some friends and I are in MK, and trying to get tamed horses from the Steppes. It takes about 20-30 min to walk over there, 20-30 min to find horses (if you're lucky) and maybe 15 to get back. Twice tonight, the exact same player (Shmerrick) and his friends (Askiir) waited at locations directly in between the Steppes and MK where the navmesh is just completely screwed, you run into a invisible wall and basically need to get off your horse and slowly walk it across. He would wait just beyond that, shoot people with bows, kill them, their horse and take all their loot. This happened once just outside of MK. We went back, spent another maybe 2 or so hours getting 2 more horses, took a completely different path, saw him (again) and his friends off their horses, they start shooting and it is literally a wide open flat area, so I run my horse at full speed.... directly into another invisible wall that pushes me up against a cliff face, they come over and kill me.

Now, normally I would at least get the satisfaction of reporting them, but I realized they are nowhere near a lawless city, what are they doing with all this loot? Then I realize they had other players, naked running around with them, which didn't participate in the fight at all. I realized they are most likely just killing everyone, looting all the corpses, and then just handing it to that other non-criminal player who can just walk back into MK, bank and sell it all with no reprecussions.

So, from above, two issues that feel a bit game breaking:

1. Has SV said they will take action against people who are specifically exploiting bugs to kill people? What happens to the people who've lost all their stuff to people who are exploiting? In this case it's even more challenging as they exploiting areas with invisible navmesh issues, so they could claim they didn't mean to do it at all.
2. What is to stop what I'm describing, where someone just becomes a wild murderer, but basically suffers no consequences as they can just hand off all their loot to other people who go into town for them and basically ferry things in and out?

Edit: Ok, to make things even worse, my friend immediately after saw that character Shmerrick was later seen just banking in MK and running around without a care, despite likely having a murdercount far into the double digits. Does that make any sense?

 

[Diseeze]

Nothing will happen, and this is exactly why games like this have small player bases because everyone leaves rather than pay x$ a month to get nowhere.

 

[Eldrath]

1. SV has to fix those bugs. It's as simple as that. Don't hold toy breath waiting for justice.

2. They do suffer the consequences but they have fences who sell the loot. Without any flagging system this would be better since you and your friends could exact vengeance even against the fences. In the current system you will turn red doing that.

As I said and said many times. These systems protect criminals and hurt those who would fight them.

 

[Dominatrixx]

1. Will be fixed by DV soon, I'm sure.
2. Flagging will help.

YOUR PROBLEM IS SOLVED.

 

[Darthus]

What do you mean flagging will help? How does that help a murderer handing loot to a non-criminal who operates out of the city.

And yeah, read my edit, hopefully it's just a current bug, but he was wandering around free as a bird in MK after a day of killing people right outside its gates.

 

[Dominatrixx]

Are you expecting guards to attack him? It's not Ultima Online. But when flagging will be in game, everyone around will know that he's "red" and they may kill him without any consequences.

 

[Darthus]

Are you expecting guards to attack him? It's not Ultima Online. But when flagging will be in game, everyone around will know that he's "red" and they may kill him without any consequences.

Yes. I'm pretty sure that's the purpose of the reputation system in that if he is reported repeatedly in MK, his reputation decreases until guards attack him on sight.

And i thought I had heard that the red naming was but going to be implemented, in fact in favor of reputation as mentioned above but maybe others can confirm or deny.

 

[LivingshadeNL]

Nothing will happen, and this is exactly why games like this have small player bases because everyone leaves rather than pay x$ a month to get nowhere.

Slightly dramatic..why join.the most.hardcore mmo and then think u can just.roam around with no danger. Using invisible walls to kill u is super bad though

 

[Diseeze]

Slightly dramatic..why join.the most.hardcore mmo and then think u can just.roam around with no danger. Using invisible walls to kill u is super bad though

That is my point they won't fix the exploit, and you say dramatic and then say the most hardcore MMO, when everyone who know anything about MMOs knows that the original UO with only trammel was the most hardcore mmo. There is nothing in MO or MO2 that hasn't been done and done better in UO.

 

[Khanate]

1. Fix bugs
2. Implement party system
Create a flag for stolen items and make it last for 20 minutes. Flag anyone criminal as long as they have stolen items in their inventory for 20 minutes.
By being in a party the party members are able to loot party members without becoming criminal, same for guild mates ofc.

Additional, if you are killed by a players you should be able to kill said player without any repercussions as long as the player is outside of city/guard limit.

 

[LivingshadeNL]

That is my point they won't fix the exploit, and you say dramatic and then say the most hardcore MMO, when everyone who know anything about MMOs knows that the original UO with only trammel was the most hardcore mmo. There is nothing in MO or MO2 that hasn't been done and done better in UO.

Ur comparing a top view 2d with A 3d fps mmo..

 

[Diseeze]

Ur comparing a top view 2d with A 3d fps mmo..

3D FPS doesn't stand on it's own as making a game hardcore, it's just one aspect.

 

[LivingshadeNL]

3D FPS doesn't stand on it's own as making a game hardcore, it's just one aspect.

Just dont compare those 2 games, while alot of aspects are the same , time this whole game plays different because its not top down view

 

[Diseeze]

Just dont compare those 2 games, while alot of aspects are the same , time this whole game plays different because its not top down view

It plays the same as original UO (apart from the FPS part) in terms of the hardcore nature, I am not talking about when UO split in 2 but when it originally came out in 97.

 

[Darthus]

So, follow up. My friend, who has been playing the stress test 8-10 hours a day, fighting through the login boss to get in, and is fully bought into the vision and experience of the game, is now basically ready to quit and not come back. I am fully prepared for the contingent below to just jump on, "Well, if he doesn't like it, he's a carebear and needs to go play Hello Kitty Online", but hear me out please.

After having the navmesh bugs being abused yesterday and losing those hours of gameplay to a griefer who later was just wandering around MK without issue (and actually couldn't be attacked with hte "avoid illegal actions" checkbox turned on, despite him having a gigantic murder count), this morning, he decided to grind zombies in the MK cemetary to get enough money to buy gear again. He spent a good portion of the morning grinding out 10 gold.

He went back to the librarians in the middle of MK and was browsing the menus, got up to grab some coffee, came back, and someone was in the act of killing him, took his bow, his 10 gold, his arrows etc, within 10 feet of a guard (according to him).

Then as he's running back to a priest, he sees the same player just hanging out in the bank, no reprecussions. He has said (whether he comes back or not) that he's now decided this game isn't for him and he's done. Those two sets of experiences have turned someone 100% about this game, talking about how amazing it is, to never want to touch it again.

So listen, I understand this is a beta, it's a stress test, systems are not working as intended. My point is, this is an omen of things to come unless Star Vault takes this very seriously. Getting a hardcore PvP game to not just turn into an empty niche game like MO1 is not just about improving the graphics and making it easier to get into. It's about providing a reliable and consistent set of rules whereby people can learn the game and calibrate their risk to their comfort level.

THE MOMENT that someone feels like they died and lost all their stuff to someone who is abusing the system or the system as they understood it didn't protect them, psychologically people want to just flip the table. If you are trying, and you see someone else exploiting the system, you lose all faith in the system and immediately think, "Then why am I trying?".

I know there are bugs, I know people need to calibrate this is a stress test, I am just saying, above everything else, it's these types of experiences that will cause all the "normal" gamers who might come to this game to bail and only leave the people who either have stockholm syndrome or the people who drink others' tears to stick around.

 

[Jackdstripper]

I understand the frustration, but this isn’t the finished game. It’s not even ready for launch. It’s actually very far from being ready IMO. SV is known for releasing unfinished content and fixing it later. Guards will be fixed and more will be added. Bugs will be fixed.....eventually.

having said that. Mortal is a very brutal game. This type of crap happens all the time. Dying to bugs, during to cheaters/exploiters, dying to unfinished mechanics.the list is endless. You need a pretty thick skin to play this game. If you don’t have patience you will be frustrated here.

 

[bbihah]

I understand the frustration, but this isn’t the finished game. It’s not even ready for launch. It’s actually very far from being ready IMO. SV is known for releasing unfinished content and fixing it later. Guards will be fixed and more will be added. Bugs will be fixed.....eventually.

having said that. Mortal is a very brutal game. This type of crap happens all the time. Dying to bugs, during to cheaters/exploiters, dying to unfinished mechanics.the list is endless. You need a pretty thick skin to play this game. If you don’t have patience you will be frustrated here.

Not to mention you really need to be smarter than to go AFK with valuables on you. Even if the guards did something, there would be no guarantee that they would do it in time and does not guarantee the safety of his items.

The game currently does handle blue flag items as "stolen" and you can not trade stolen items. I'm wondering if it can be circumvented by /droploot.

Not sure about MO2 currently or planned but in MO1, bankers did not accept stolen items until the stolen item flag ran out, guards would detect stolen items and illegal items in your inventory and "apprehend" you. One of the areas with a lot of guards was usually banks. So heading to a bank with stolen items was usually a bad idea.



The game was clearly not for him, he does not have the situational awareness or the "awareness" to understand that you can be attacked anywhere by anyone for any reason(although lower chance and lower risk in some areas than others). So to stand around afk with ALL his loot, when there is a perfectly fine working banking function is not a good career move. And this being after he has already before suffered loss in the game speaks volumes about how good this person is at adapting to the fact that this is a full loot pvp game. He also seems to have difficulties handling the fact that the game is still pretty "early" in development. meaning its nowhere near feature complete and to expect no bugs when we are still in beta and under a focused test, none the less is extremely silly and I think the friend will be better off taking the future stress of this game and going elsewhere.

 

[Darthus]

"The game was clearly not for him"

Be very careful with that phrase. It is the laziest way to engage with critiques from people not enjoying a game when they very well might given certain tweaks and the clarion call of a death spiral if it becomes a game's motto. It's a quick signal to anyone on the fence about a game to "get out" and not come back.

It was clearly for him for 40 hours he put in over a 4 day period until he was killed in a supposed "safe" area in front of a guard right after having navmeshes abused repeatedly to kill him and saw no consequence given to the person (in game or out) and no acknowledgement that was not just simply how the game worked (which you seem to be implying is the case). Being safe in a guarded NPC capital city to stand up for a few minutes seems like a reasonable assumption for most gamers I'd think (the game implies that's the case with the guards everywhere). And it was also the follow-up of seeing that the player suffered no consequences.

If someone played Cyberpunk for 40 hours, said it was their game of the year, then fell through the world and got kicked back to a save 5 hours before, is the appropriate response "Well, you should have been more careful, the game is clearly not for you?".

These were bugs, and when a bug causes someone to lose hours of gameplay, especially at the hands of someone else exploiting it when the game is based around abstract contracts of player interaction, is serious and may lead even the most serious fan to leave a game.

Blaming players for being upset about losing significant progress due to the game's systems not operating as advertised is not a chance to belittle the player as not good at the game. It's a fault in the game and should be looked at seriously how to minimize, without compromising the game's vision.

I fully agree that making a decision to not play the game based on bugs or issues in an early stress test is not reasonable (though people will do it). I also recognize bugs will happen, my only point is this is probably THE primary thing that will turn MO2 into a hardcore niche game if not taken seriously or wave away, rather than one that could have a significantly broader audience which Henrik has stated as the goal and the entire reason for making this thing instead of just staying with MO1.

 

[Levvy]

You've got to be a bit more relaxed to deal with these games, or a thicker skin, or however you wish to deal with the losses emotionally. I've lost a bunch of shit to bugs already; meditation and exercise help. Maybe some of those tens of hours per week could be spent on that?

What's really interesting about these sorts of games is that they reveal a lot about people's natures. That's their appeal. You really are inhabiting an avatar in a sandbox game. This isn't so much about Mortal Online 2 and its griefers, or bugs; it's about your buddy's mentality.

That's my opinion anyway.

With patience, imagination, skill, comradery... you will find a place in this game. If you quit at the first sign of suffering, you won't. You will leave.

 

[ElPerro]

So, follow up. My friend, who has been playing the stress test 8-10 hours a day, fighting through the login boss to get in, and is fully bought into the vision and experience of the game, is now basically ready to quit and not come back. I am fully prepared for the contingent below to just jump on, "Well, if he doesn't like it, he's a carebear and needs to go play Hello Kitty Online", but hear me out please.

After having the navmesh bugs being abused yesterday and losing those hours of gameplay to a griefer who later was just wandering around MK without issue (and actually couldn't be attacked with hte "avoid illegal actions" checkbox turned on, despite him having a gigantic murder count), this morning, he decided to grind zombies in the MK cemetary to get enough money to buy gear again. He spent a good portion of the morning grinding out 10 gold.

He went back to the librarians in the middle of MK and was browsing the menus, got up to grab some coffee, came back, and someone was in the act of killing him, took his bow, his 10 gold, his arrows etc, within 10 feet of a guard (according to him).

Then as he's running back to a priest, he sees the same player just hanging out in the bank, no reprecussions. He has said (whether he comes back or not) that he's now decided this game isn't for him and he's done. Those two sets of experiences have turned someone 100% about this game, talking about how amazing it is, to never want to touch it again.

So listen, I understand this is a beta, it's a stress test, systems are not working as intended. My point is, this is an omen of things to come unless Star Vault takes this very seriously. Getting a hardcore PvP game to not just turn into an empty niche game like MO1 is not just about improving the graphics and making it easier to get into. It's about providing a reliable and consistent set of rules whereby people can learn the game and calibrate their risk to their comfort level.

THE MOMENT that someone feels like they died and lost all their stuff to someone who is abusing the system or the system as they understood it didn't protect them, psychologically people want to just flip the table. If you are trying, and you see someone else exploiting the system, you lose all faith in the system and immediately think, "Then why am I trying?".

I know there are bugs, I know people need to calibrate this is a stress test, I am just saying, above everything else, it's these types of experiences that will cause all the "normal" gamers who might come to this game to bail and only leave the people who either have stockholm syndrome or the people who drink others' tears to stick around.

I wouldnt even afk in MO1 tindrem bank with gold on me. Your friend learned a valuable lesson