Tweak miss-penalty

[cerqo]

Being locked out of blocking after miss is not a very good game mechanic IMO, especially when you have the ability to see the hit coming but you simply cannot react because you are locked out of any action.

Yes, there should be a penalty for missing swings but this is not the right way to do it IMO.

A good alternative could be to lose a certain amount of stamina for missing a swing or something similar. You still get punished for missing but you are not locked out of reacting to something you would extremely easily react to just because you are literally not allowed to do anything after it.

Lockouts, limitations on camera movement, turns-caps etc just make the game feel clunky and unresponsive. This exact mechanic regarding a block lockout was actually tested in the first game and was promptly removed the next patch because everyone said it felt clunky and non-responsive which is still true in this game.

TLDR: Punish someone for missing a swing without locking them out from using their character.

 

[Teknique]

Being locked out of blocking after miss is not a very good game mechanic IMO, especially when you have the ability to see the hit coming but you simply cannot react because you are locked out of any action.

Yes, there should be a penalty for missing swings but this is not the right way to do it IMO.

A good alternative could be to lose a certain amount of stamina for missing a swing or something similar. You still get punished for missing but you are not locked out of reacting to something you would extremely easily react to just because you are literally not allowed to do anything after it.

Lockouts, limitations on camera movement, turns-caps etc just make the game feel clunky and unresponsive. This exact mechanic regarding a block lockout was actually tested in the first game and was promptly removed the next patch because everyone said it felt clunky and non-responsive which is still true in this game.

TLDR: Punish someone for missing a swing without locking them out from using their character.

The patch prior where it was about half the time was fine.

Currently you just sit there and parry whore and wait for the person to try something fancy.

It isn't about accuracy its about muting other people's play styles that you don't agree with.

 

[bbihah]

Follow mordhau and Chivalry 2's lead is probably the best bet for it to encourage some kind of skill and flow. We already have "combos" in mo2. So being able to "combo" a miss into a block just seems reasonable. Both those games have the penalty being stamina. Chiv 2 by having greater stam cost for the swing itself if it misses and Mordhau by making the swing cost full stamina if it does not connect(parried, hit or block).


So I agree.

 

[Woody]

I disagree as I think they've found a fairly good sweet spot how it is now. There is also now enough variance between the miss penalty of 2h and 1h weapons to be more meaningful than it was previously so this is a net positive of the design now.

Losing stamina for missing a swing would feel much worse especially when it comes to team fights and not to mention on-top of the already oppressive stamina penalty while wearing heavy armor. Also not to mention how easy it is to parry in the game already, so let's add more ways to get around parries first before we look to wind back the changes that do just that.

 

[bbihah]

I disagree as I think they've found a fairly good sweet spot how it is now. There is also now enough variance between the miss penalty of 2h and 1h weapons to be more meaningful than it was previously so this is a net positive of the design now.

Losing stamina for missing a swing would feel much worse especially when it comes to team fights and not to mention on-top of the already oppressive stamina penalty while wearing heavy armor. Also not to mention how easy it is to parry in the game already, so let's add more ways to get around parries first before we look to wind back the changes that do just that.

Do it the mordhau/chiv route then. Misses don't cost more stamina per say but hitting costs less. Encourages you to make sure the swings hit. But doesn't completely gimp defense because you decided to swing and miss. There def should be some sort of delay that prevents a Swing vs swing trade from becoming swing vs swing trade with the one with ping advantage managing to land a hit and parry at the same time. But it could be.. Tighter? than it is now and with stam penalty for swinging wildly without landing.

Tbh I actually find the current state of things to be pretty good. I haven't really gotten in a lot of "random" fights though which is where you can really get the feel for how combat really feels. Duels and town battles does not really portray combat "realistically". But it atleast feels like SV got an ok handle on things and do not seem shy on trying new things.

 

[GoldenGecko]

The miss-penalty isn't fun, discourages risk taking, and disadvantages people with high ping. Low ping players can accurately judge distance and range people while high ping can not.

 

[Woody]

The miss-penalty isn't fun, discourages risk taking, and disadvantages people with high ping. Low ping players can accurately judge distance and range people while high ping can not.

This is incorrect. Swinging and hitting is all client side so you're not disadvantaged by ping in this respect. If you're next to them on your screen, you can effectively hit another player with any part of your weapon and the server will acknowledge this as a "hit". This is why people can hit you from further away while running as on their screen, they're actually in range of you. Depending on where you live, you could be anywhere from 10ms to 300ms ahead of the server on your game client/screen.

The only consideration to ping in this respect is did you or the opponent parry in time, in which case your hit is counted as being parried and this will often appear delayed or shown after the hit (noticeable especially on higher pings). Higher pings also have a smaller window to tell the server that they parried in time, so a disadvantage in parrying itself.

If you flat out miss, then that's on you and is a skill element of learning the different weapon reaches, swing speeds and arcs of the weapon as to not handle-hit etc. The same goes for archery and magic, all client side. You are therefore not punished due to ping based on your ability to "hit".

 

[Teknique]

This is incorrect. Swinging and hitting is all client side so you're not disadvantaged by ping in this respect. If you're next to them on your screen, you can effectively hit another player with any part of your weapon and the server will acknowledge this as a "hit". This is why people can hit you from further away while running as on their screen, they're actually in range of you. Depending on where you live, you could be anywhere from 10ms to 300ms ahead of the server on your game client/screen.

The only consideration to ping in this respect is did your or the opponent parry in time, in which case your hit is counted as being parried and this will often appear delayed or shown after the hit (noticeable especially on higher pings). Higher pings also have a smaller window to tell the server that they parried in time, so a disadvantage in parrying itself.

If you flat out miss, then that's on you and is a skill element of learning the different weapon reaches, swing speeds and arcs of the weapon as to not handle-hit etc. The same goes for archery and magic, all client side. You are therefore not punished due to ping based on your ability to "hit".

Star Vault's ping normalization is very good, that said certain things are still a race to the server unless physics no longer applies.

 

[GoldenGecko]

his is why people can hit you from further away while running as on their screen, they're actually in range of you. Depending on where you live, you could be anywhere from 10ms to 300ms ahead of the server on your game client/screen.

Low ping and extreme ping players have an advantage in managing distance and avoiding swings. I'm glad we agree on that.

 

[Evelyn]

Parry Counter reduction is a much larger issue than people needing to learn to aim better.

 

[Dracu]

melee combat can be a bit busted when its just parry spin counter spamming 24/7. the combat needs windows where hits can land. An increase in the miss penalty was necessary to open more of those windows. Also ez fix... gid gud.

And yes ping makes you better at the game. With low ping your armor is better and your weapon does also more damage. Low ping also increases the amount of ressources you get from things... damn low ping crutchers!

 

[Bernfred]

Parry Counter reduction is a much larger issue than people needing to learn to aim better.

this change was the "needed" except that the time must be as long as the full charge time of the ATTACKER so you can hit on a parry and charge a 2nd full circle without dmg reduction.

the dmg reduction is a big fix for team battles and the "zerg" meta. duels would be fixed with the timing change and the higher TTK will change to positive after the deathmatch meta ends. people who are not good in parrying can now concentrate on one attacker much better and people with high skill are now able to get something out of the won time whereas before they were pretty much dead 1vs2 of any skill and gear class.

 

[Evelyn]

this change was the "needed" except that the time must be as long as the full charge time of the ATTACKER so you can hit on a parry and charge a 2nd full circle without dmg reduction.

the dmg reduction is a big fix for team battles and the "zerg" meta. duels would be fixed with the timing change and the higher TTK will change to positive after the deathmatch meta ends. people who are not good in parrying can now concentrate on one attacker much better and people with high skill are now able to get something out of the won time whereas before they were pretty much dead 1vs2 of any skill and gear class.

Honestly no, in a 1v2 if your opponents have the right mix of weapons parry counter is not going to save you unless they're both just so much worse than you. In my opinion the mechanic breaks some weapon builds and turns 1v1s into slogfests for very little actual gain in practice.

 

[Bernfred]

Honestly no, in a 1v2 if your opponents have the right mix of weapons parry counter is not going to save you unless they're both just so much worse than you. In my opinion the mechanic breaks some weapon builds and turns 1v1s into slogfests for very little actual gain in practice.

its not about saving him, its about giving him a fair edge. my suggested change would not only fix the 1vs1 problem but would also improve it by deleting parry spamming with half circle attacks which was very gear based and broken with the ping system like the new swing release system still is but no one is talking about.

 

[Dracu]

its not about saving him, its about giving him a fair edge. my suggested change would not only fix the 1vs1 problem but would also improve it by deleting parry spamming with half circle attacks which was very gear based and broken with the ping system like the new swing release system still is but no one is talking about.

Cause the ppl mad about this spam shit left the game when they introduced it... xD

Combat cant be fixed with a single change sadly. It requires a few things and then that stuff has to work.

Imo what SV should focus in melee combat the most is 1vX. Once that actually works. The rest will work too.

 

[Teknique]

Parry Counter reduction is a much larger issue than people needing to learn to aim better.

The miss penalty isn’t about aim. It’s about immobilizing people who try fancy things and forcing them to play like a parry player intead