The Problem with Mounted Combat, and How to Improve It.

[Viknuss]

I think everyone can agree that the Mounted Combat play style in Mortal Online 2 is awful. It's cumbersome, slow, unenjoyable, and unrewarding.
If you think the Mounted Combat class is fine as it is, then I imagine you haven't tried it yet. Educate yourself.

The Mounted Combat in Mortal Online 1 at the very end of the game is what I will be referencing as far as what the class should look like in MO 2. I will go over it's capabilities here.
In Mortal Online 1, the Mounted Combat was a very versatile class. You could move quickly on the battlefield, you could do high end damage, and you were very tanky.
You filled the role of an M1 Abrams battle tank.
Your armor was min maxed to your armor weight, so that it offered maximum protection.
Your weapons were designed to either dismount other mounted, or do high damage to foot players.
Your horse had high HP, and moderate damage resistance with horse armor.
You could move quickly on the battlefield, diving back lines to disrupt healers, sow chaos into the front line, and run down retreating enemies.
Your animations were fluid, and simple. They made sense.

Now lets discuss the Mounted Combat for Mortal Online 2 in comparison.
in Mortal Online 2, the Mounted Combat is a joke. You can move moderately quick, You do no damage, and your not very tanky.
You fill the role of a slight nuisance, incapable of handling a 1v1 on your own.
Your armor might be min maxed for your armor weight, but you'll likely dismount to fight anyway so you can do some damage. Maybe something lighter.
Your weapon SHOULD be a lance, but you'll do no damage with it. Maybe a sword? Maybe an axe? Your animations are too clunky and slow to be effective. Good luck.
Your horse will be a Desert Horse if you don't want circles run around you. It's the only Meta horse currently. 270 max HP? Good luck.
You can't really dive back lines, your damage is 50 or lower with an end game tungsteel lance, or sword or axe. You won't be very impactful.
Your animations are clunky, and slow. If you aren't using a couched spear or lance, then your swings are delayed. You release the swing and about a second and a half later it will pass. Good luck.

Let's talk about the difference between the two.
MO 1 MC did high damage with the right weapons. 50+ on the lower end. 80+ with the perfect hits.
MO 2 MC does baby damage with an end game weapon. Tungsteel lance hits bone armors for 50 or less with a perfect hit to the head.

MO 1 animations were user friendly, and straight forward. When you released an attack it passed instantly, just like if you were fighting on foot.
MO 2 animations are clunky, and slow. Needlessly slow. If a foot fighter can release his swing instantly, why can an MC not release his swing instantly?

MO 1 had a variety of weapons equally viable for MC. Lances did high damage. Axes did high damage. Swords did high damage. Star Maces did high damage.
MO 2 has no weapon that shines above the others. Lance damage is unacceptable. Swords/Axes/Maces take too long to swing. They have low durability, and take heavy durability loss.
Spears perform worse than lances now after a recent patch, and are no longer viable.

MO 1 had very clear rules and requirements surrounding dismounts, and weapons designed to dismount. 70+ damage with a blunt weapon = dismounted MC. EQ = dismounted MC.
MO 2 has no animation for dismount, and no clear options for dismounting enemy mounted. You can use an axe and roll the dice. EQ won't dismount you currently. There is no clear ruling on the damage required to dismount you.

Now let's talk about how to fix the class and bring it up to where it should be.

1.) Remove the swing delay with swords/axes/hammers on MC. If I release a swing, I want it to pass instantly. What purpose does the swing delay serve? A higher skill ceiling? Make the class harder? If a foot fighter can swing instantly, why can't an MC? It does nothing but make the class unplayable.

2.) Make lances what they are supposed to be. High Damage death sticks. If I charge a poorly armored individual with an end game lance, 4th speed perfect hit right to his head, that should damn near kill him. Damage bonus, and mount velocity currently are not being factored into MC damage.
MO 1 damage difference between 2nd speed, and 4th speed hits were significant. You would hit 50+ more damage with a 4th speed charge perfect hit.
MO 2 you're lucky to get 10 more damage with a 4th speed charge perfect hit.
All builds regardless of damage bonus do about the same damage. This is problem. A veela can hit for about the same as a max sized thursar kallard on an MC. It makes no sense.

3.) Give us some proper dismount mechanics. Make blunt lances dismount. Make EQ dismount. Give us a dismount animation that looks and feels good. A knight flying off a horse and slamming on the ground, like he should. Give footies their dismount weapons to knock an MC down on the ground. Give MC's proper dismount mechanics against other MC's. It was one of the main features of MO 1 MC's. Dismounting the enemy.

4.) Make MC damage chip through parries. How on earth would a foot soldier tank a lance and get hit for 0 damage on a parry? He would lose his weapon, or get knocked on his ass. All I ask is that some of that damage gets through. Right now a footie only has to parry the embarrassingly slow animations from an MC for a rewarding 0 damage, and go about his day. There is no shot a competent MC and take a competent foot fighter.

Heavy Cavalry are an absolute necessity on the battlefield. They serve their purpose just like foot fighters.

In MO 2 currently, they have no purpose.

 

[Hayasa]

Buddy just wants an OP mounted style, which if the map is as large as they say it is, I’m not genna complain and agree, mounted should be king. HOWEVER depending on the “age” mounted units were used differently, and Infantry became King.

Mounted was only good on the initial charge and then had to dismount to be viable in a fight. But from the post is looks like you want to be a glass cannon once again like MO1

 

[Tzone]

Mounted is low skill floor and Easy. With medium gains at almost no risk due to

Mounted right now is a reason people dislike playing the game despite liking the FF PvP. Running into mounted is not a good feeling. You know its not going to be a good fun fight even if you win. Most dont want mounted online 2.

Main issue is that every playstyle needs some form of counter. Hammers are bearly a counter and very limited to people willing to spend 100 points into clubs and be in the situation where you can run up to a mount.

Played over 300 hours of MA, and played against mounted as FF, FM as well. I had MC on my MA as well for some time and once you figure out the onehanded swings its fine. The only time mounted lose is if they get too cocky. Mounted being a low skill floor playstyle naturally attract a lot of bad players who even then cant play mounted properly. So the very bad players who mainly hover as mounted mains tend to screw results of how good mounted is.

 

[Bernfred]

the reason why people cry for better stabbing weapons like lances is because swinging from horseback is unplayable.
it has nothing to do with OP mounted combat, you must give footies much better tools to defend against mounteds to fix the meta.

 

[For Sure]

Mounted is a step above tamers on skill for starters. You want to see them buffed?

All mounted players have the same stam as footies when dismounted. They have over double the hp and stamina pool when mounted. Yet, we want to give them more? Lol, next. The only negative is they're expensive? 100% of people participating in the forums know exactly how to rush end game items. It's not a secret recipe like MO1.

Seriously, the game was way more fun before mounts, mount armors, and the tri mount combat meta. Simplicity is key. If anything there should be a post to remove combat on mounts in general.

 

[Tzone]

the reason why people cry for better stabbing weapons like lances is because swinging from horseback is unplayable.
it has nothing to do with OP mounted combat, you must give footies much better tools to defend against mounteds to fix the meta.

Its playable I hit people from mounted with swings you just need some practice and to learn the hitbox. Its not as low skill floor as the other aspect of MC which is prob why people think its impossible. With MC at 100 and clubs at like 9 I can hit for 70+ on a armored head,

 

[Bernfred]

Its playable I hit people from mounted with swings you just need some practice and to learn the hitbox. Its not as low skill floor as the other aspect of MC which is prob why people think its impossible. With MC at 100 and clubs at like 9 I can hit for 70+ on a armored head,

perfect! then let the MC combat die if its somewhat playable for some peeps.

 

[Viknuss]

Sure. Disagree with the idea of making a desirable class. You're only taking the content away from yourselves. No one is going to walk across the map. They're going to ride.

 

[zers]

 

[Lord Hair Remover]

No.

 

[Bernfred]

my dream was to set swift riding under riding so every footfighter has the chance to cross the map and use horses over a longer distance than 500 meters outside of a blue town (all you need are ~16 CC then and the pet lore).
when his horse dies he needs a tool vs mounteds like fast switching bows with low side step sway and stamina drain and anti horse armor arrow fletching or axes/hammers (spear stance) who dismounts on nearly every hit.

if you dont give everyone a horse, every foot fighter will unsub after a while because he cant reach his content or he dies after 3h walking. you would need to nerf every mounted class into oblivion to make sure people can cross the map on foot but making MC bad is not a real option. it would just extend the TTK and make it unfun for the rider.

 

[Anabolic Man]

MC need a Buff and a Nerf at the same time !

1. Buff the MC in 1 vs 1 !

I think MC need to be buffed in 1 one vs 1 by getting different attack directions. I would like to see an Overhead Steb attack with the spear, so an MC can make a mid or Overhead thrust attack. Otherwise the Footfighter only have to block mid. You should be able to make an Ooverhead attack with the sword aswell. This can´t be done with Lances and that´s why they should get Chip Damage through the parry.

Nerf the MC in Groupfights

2. We need a rework of the Dismount mechanics

A Player that got dismounted should not be able to mount his Horse again !
The Horse should run 1000 meters away and should not listen to the commands anymore for at least 2 Minutes. Atm you can dismount a player and he can immediatly mount again ! When the horses die, it's just annoying. It would be much better if they just run away.
Then the MC, who has enough skill points to be a footfighter at the same time, can continue fighting on foot and look around for his horse after the fight. When he dies, he no longer needs his horse. I also find it quite unrealistic for horses to commit suicide and just stand still, even though players attack it with their weapons.

3, New Dismount mechanics

Spear stance never worked ! I would love if you could cast an Earthquake or some kind of Spell on the ground,

so that this radius cannot be entered by an MC within a radius of a few meters, otherwise he would be thrown from the horse. Maybe many spikes could come out of the ground in a circle not effecting footfighters but horses. I think that would be hard to implement.


That´s the reason we need a ranged Dismount !
Sv announced throwing Weapons. I am not a fan of a Crossbow but i like the Idea of a throwing Javelin that can dismount a mounted Player, but only under certain Conditions ! Everything need to be balanced. Otherwise noone would like to play the MC and every Build should be viable and balanced.

A throwing Javelin should dismount an MC if you hit the head Hitbox of the horse, if it is under 50 % Health.
You should only have one chance. Either as a kind of ability with a CD,
or by losing the weapon and spawning it as a lootbag in order to be able to collect it again later.
SV could do it in such a way that the Javelin has to be crafted from a valuable metal such as Tungsteel in order to be able to dismount a player more effective.

A Jadeite Javelin could Dismount a Player, if his Horse drops under 10 % HP, a steel Javelin could dismount a Player if his Horse drops under 25 % Hp. A Tungsteel Javelin could dismount a Player if his Horse drops under 40 or 50 % HP.

If this is still too strong, it could be done in such a way that only players with the marksmanship Skill can dismount an MC with a Javelin.
I would prefer if you not need Marksmanship, because the MC would not be able to use the javelin. The MC is inferior to the Mounted Archery. It would be nice if he had the unique chance to dismount a Mounted Archer on range if his horse drops below 50% HP, it he hit the horse's head Hitbox with it.

Aiming with the javelin shouldn't be too easy either. The Javelin should have a good dropoff, so that the player has to aim quite high up.

I really think we need a ranged dismount and it should not be too OP !



Does a group of mounted fighters, mages and archers have an advantage over a foot warrior group?

That is definitely already now the case.
If someone claims how weak the MC is, he probably means an MC in 1 vs 1.
In group fights, a mounted troop is extremely strong!

Of course, the foot group can defend themselves against the mounted fighters with longbows. But if several players pull a Bow to focus on one of the horses, they will be overrun by the MCs, as they cannot block with their bow!

Of course, a mage can cast an earthquake, but only with the risk of injuring his own friends and moreover,
this is usually not possible at all, because he gez shot by the mounted archers.
The Foot Mage will have enough problems with healing himself all the time.

In addition, the fatmages are quite strong and can heal the horses. In MO2 the MCs do not have to dismount to heal their horse. That justifies a ranged dismount and that the horses in MO2 can be killed more easily!

A mounted fighter is not out of the game if he has been dismounted. This can also fight well on Foot. A dismounted Mounted Mage is also a good healer and can deal a lot of Damage on foot, even if he have lost his Horse ! A Moutned Archer can also be a Foot Archer !
The mounted fighters are not without a chance, if they have been dismounted ! Fights should begin on horseback and end on foot! Please don't buff the horses!

If the horses are squishy, then the players build characters that can be played both on horseback and on foot. Then the game is much more fun and i want to tell you why !

I played a hybrid between an MC and a footfighter in MO1 for a long time. I have always seen my horse as a commodity. When it got low HP i dismount and fought on foot like a man with a sword. This play style is just more fun. This is more fun than playing a weelchair MC that leaves the battle to heal up his horse and returns when the fight is over and abandons his team.


If the horses are squishy, then more players will build a hybrid between a footfighter and MC and that would be an enrichment for MO2.
That's why you have to be able to level the horses much faster !
These should be seen as a consumable item ! An object that you don't cry about when you lose it. The MC is already expensive enough.

 

[Valoran]

We all know mounteds were completely broken in MO1, so using that as a reference likely isn't the best way to go about suggesting buffs to them in MO2.

I'm not sure what tests you have been doing to come to these conclusions, as they directly contradict my own tests and everything I have seen in game.

From my experience,

1. Mount speed and relative velocity is indeed part of the damage calculation.

2. Lances are clearly shining above other weapons for an MC, due to how easy it is to aim and land hits with them.

3. The pros mounteds get against people on foot can't be ignored. Mounted movement and survivability advantage is a huge factor, and simply having everything a foot fighter has only way better is not good balance. Increased cost is not the only factor, and doesn't justify a huge imbalance on its own.

4. Having significant chip damage allows MCs to kill any foot fighter guaranteed when in an open enough area, with zero chance for counter play other than shooting the MC with a bow, but that allows you to freely hit them for full damage. A small amount of chip damage is fair though.

5. 50 damage is a lot for one hit, especially when it's so easy to land hits as a mounted in group fights when your target isn't always paying attention to you. The only issue I have with lances is their extremely limited durability due to the massive cost of landing hits with them.


I agree that the swing delay feels particularly bad while mounted due to the fine timing required from increased move speed, but it should be exactly the same 300ms while mounted as it is on foot, if it's not then that is likely a bug.


MC is definitely not in a perfect spot and could certainly use some tweaks.

However, using MO1 as a reference we already have a clear example of what it looks like when it's way too strong, and we need to avoid that happening again.

 

[bubbles]

the issue is that MC is so much weaker than MA or MM. Starvault needs to give MC something because right now youre trolling your team by playing MC

 

[Backyard Employee]

In my opinion two things are important to cast aside and not consider are...

1.) Trying to bring back how any form of mounted play worked in Mortal Online 1.
2.) Attempting to mimic real life, or push for realism.

Mounted play had and has an extremely low skill ceiling, in my opinion, and the efficacy of it was only multiplied by dumping gold into it.

Gold =/= Skill

In-fact I think it's important to bring up the OP of this post was well known to actually purchase mounts, gear, potions, etc. in exchange for real world currency and it really should perk up how serious we should take some of their opinions on the subject.

Sure, Viknuss has played a lot of mounted in Mortal Online. I wont deny that. But anyone who believes that they are right simply because they have played a lot, or have more hours then someone else in something; doesn't immediately make said person more knowledgeable, more skillful, etc.

There are plenty of people who have played equal to the amount of time he has played, more, or even less.. That did much better in utilizing the extreme imbalance between mounted and other classes - and will tell you that in Mortal Online mounted was by far the easiest thing to play.

I never 'mained' a mounted character aside from times in which I'd roll a mounted archer, and I've played mounted combat before; and can say as someone who didn't like it, thought it was broken / easy and frankly not fair - it was extremely strong in MO1 even on low-cost gear. Molarium armor and messing sledgehammers or just your run of the mill steel axes could be used to kill other highly geared mounted players, as well as foot players.

It's how I honestly got good gear on my mounted characters anyway.

Point being.. I get people wish for their roles to "be the best" and dominate everything, and never have to worry about truly 'trying'.

I don't agree with mounteds chipping through blocks / parries. Blocks and parries are timed, and in that case skill based. If your hitting a target who is aware of you and actively defending him / herself from your attacks, then they deserve to be rewarded for that by not taking damage.

Now.. We can obviously factor in blunt damage.. but lets be fair, they've severely nerfed blunt damage across the board from what I've seen (and chip damage really does need to come back.. but only whilst on foot.)

With how the map is much larger as well, yes, people will be riding mounts more. But that is also because riding is a secondary - killing a guy who is on a mount with no mounted skills, I would find, is actually easier then killing him while he's on foot. Being on a mount with no mounted skills is honestly more of a disadvantage then being on foot.

The only way I can REALLY justify mounted play being made stronger is giving it proper balance. My ideal mounted play balance?

Mounted Combat:

1.) No damage chipping through blocks / parries.
2.) Not swinging massive two handed weapons. (Buff one handed weapons and make them better already Star Vault, what's the deal with two handed online?)
3.) No stopping on a dime, have gradual declines in speed and gradual accelerations; in MO1 you just stopped & turned and went super fast by mashing W.


Mounted Archery:

1.) Increase the stamina drain on drawing back arrows. A big problem with archery in MO is that it quite literally feels like you're spamming your quiver to empty. Make the deeper archery skills matter, forcing them to be taken rather then 'choice'. Perhaps even balance draw speed to take into account arrow type? Arrows that deal more blunt damage drain more stamina, etc. etc.


Mounted Mage:

1.) Force mages who wish to be mounted to have a 'Mounted Mage' skill.
2.) Then include two potential primary skills under Mounted Mage. We'll call them "Mental Quickness" and "Mental Ruin". Mental Quickness would reduce the cast speed time whilst mounted in-between 0% to 50% based on the points invested into it, whilst Mental Ruin would increase the damage done from 0% to 25% based on the pointes invested into it. (Read third change).
3.) Give a flat 25% damage decrease on mounted mages. If you're mounted and want to do full damage, you must invest two primaries.

Mounted (In general):

1.) No more super mounts. Never allow us to approach an age of super mounts again. Fast mounts should be weak, slow mounts should be hearty. Allow the breeding process to find a happy medium - not the best of both. (Or, have "super mounts" be completely RNG / insanely rare - rather then reproduceable.)
2.) Make mount armor actually more significant. Give players piercing, slashing, blunt, (maybe) and magic resistant horse armors that actually give good, flat mitigation to the selected damage type. Perhaps the magic resistant armor allows you to prevent dismounts from earthquakes but you're still highly susceptible to spears, arrows, and the likes?
3.) Give players a working spear stance / pike brace.

 

[Teknique]

The str req for axes is the exact same as end of mo 1.

you can still hit for 100+ on naked with a 3.96 axe that hasn’t changed at all.
As for the swing delay, you release it earlier. It’s pretty tough but doable. I won’t say it feels amazing but it is what it is.

 

[Jackdstripper]

Like pretty much everyone is saying above:
We do not want the mo1 OP MC back.

it was unbalanced, unskilled, unenjoyable for anyone but MCs.

mounteds have top mobility, they shouldn’t also have top tankiness and top damage.The OP just wants his easy god mode back. No thanks.

mounteds have their place. They can scout, harass and are great for chasing fleeing enemies. Thats exactly what they should do.

 

[MolagAmur]

In Mortal Online 1, the Mounted Combat was a very versatile class. You could move quickly on the battlefield, you could do high end damage, and you were very tanky.
You filled the role of an M1 Abrams battle tank.
Your armor was min maxed to your armor weight, so that it offered maximum protection.
Your weapons were designed to either dismount other mounted, or do high damage to foot players.
Your horse had high HP, and moderate damage resistance with horse armor.
You could move quickly on the battlefield, diving back lines to disrupt healers, sow chaos into the front line, and run down retreating enemies.
Your animations were fluid, and simple. They made sense.

Highest damage. Highest mobility. Highest HP.



Mounted strength should be in groups. Able to choose their fights, flank, harrass, scout, chasing, etc. Not have everything and do ridiculous amounts of damage.

 

[Turbizzler]

" You could move quickly on the battlefield, you could do high end damage, and you were very tanky"
"Heavy Cavalry are an absolute necessity on the battlefield. They serve their purpose just like foot fighters."

Hate to break it to you champ, but that is not how heavy cavalry works, or should ever work. Mid to Late life cycle of MO1, is a perfect example of how to do almost everything wrong when it comes to mounted combat.

 

[Rorry]

Maybe instead of buffing mounted combat up to the level of mounted archer and mounted mage, SV should nerf MA and MM down to the level of MC. That would improve balance between foot/mounted as well.