The only way to balance Dex and Healing without having to rebalance PVE is to add new mechanics.
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Highlighting how broken alvarin are. You get a 10 points speed buff for having 25 dex by just being an elf. This propagates up for the dumbest combos possible.
got some AI for ya. It's goin to summarize my posts.
• Elves should remain fast "glass cannons," but the numerical aspects of balance need improvement.
• Gap closers are considered speed skills; elves already possess these, and their effectiveness needs reevaluation.
• Stamina should play a more significant role in gameplay; currently, it is overlooked as a resource.
• Suggests that different elf clades should exhibit varying reactions to low stamina, impacting speed.
• Players should experience slightly reduced speed at certain stamina levels, with significant reductions at critical lows.
• Current game mechanics and power creep issues need addressing to balance elf efficiency.
• Proposes limiting strong abilities, such as "resting pulse," based on being hit within a certain timeframe.
• Advocates for a high stamina management requirement for elves, rather than simply being fast.
• Emphasizes the need for creativity in addressing these game balance challenges.
• Believes elves should have the highest skill ceiling, allowing for accountability for poor player performance.
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• The veela character is characterized by high speed in combat, requiring strategic movement to create a gap for escapes or attacks.
• A veela can alternately kite and close distance to wear down opponents, but matches against tough armor characters like the thursar challenge this strategy due to the thursar’s damage regeneration.
• Game balance is influenced by mechanics such as gap closers and slows, with discussions surrounding whether veelas possess similar abilities.
• The dynamics of combat should prioritize fluid, on-foot movement rather than fixed roles, contrasting with typical MOBA or extraction gameplay.
• The introduction of stamina rewards for successful counters and penalties for mistakes could enhance gameplay complexity and encourage careful play.
• Proposed changes to mage mechanics include reducing self-heal effectiveness and imposing stamina costs during spell charging to address balance issues.
• While maintaining an unclosable gap can frustrate chasers, it does not fundamentally break the game; strategic commitments to fights could be encouraged.
• The unique nature of fights in MO offers greater dynamics beyond simple rush tactics, showcasing a variety of skill-based plays compared to traditional combat designs.
Alvarians were balanced at the beginning of MO2, when the max dex you could get was only around 125, and to get that speed you had to sacrifice a lot if damage and hp.
But then SV had to introduce masteries/trinkets/abilities and allow people to add dex on top of dex and make their clades go faster and last longer while also hit way harder on their burst damage, while also wearing top armor. Where is the downside?
And now we are back to MO1 imbalance where speed is king. Most vheelas have 220hp, and hit very hard with daggers abilities and armor piercing clades.
The problems isnt the fact that its hard to balance, the problem is that SV doesn't give a shit about balance. Even when they have it, they go out if their way to fuck it up.
But then SV had to introduce masteries/trinkets/abilities and allow people to add dex on top of dex and make their clades go faster and last longer while also hit way harder on their burst damage, while also wearing top armor. Where is the downside?
And now we are back to MO1 imbalance where speed is king. Most vheelas have 220hp, and hit very hard with daggers abilities and armor piercing clades.
The problems isnt the fact that its hard to balance, the problem is that SV doesn't give a shit about balance. Even when they have it, they go out if their way to fuck it up.
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Yeah I remember they were all in khurite splinted and dealt 15 dmg per hit literally, their mages had sub 100 hp, now they get 30 attribute points to put in con and 40 extra hp with trinkets and hp buffs and masteries (mages) and footies get 13 faw and 1kg from masteries to wear full oghmium if they want.
Now Alvarin mages get 180 hp, and alvarin footies get 230 hp and wear same gear as oghmirs or thursars
That was my favorite time. The people who you guys hate that are alv are people who rolled onto alv when they started to be OP. Part of it was just that people can't understand how a lite armor character that can deal teen damage to steel could be good, and it took them awhile to figure that out, but part of it was just that they kept benefiting more and more from changes.
There needs to be a deep balance. I really think the idea of making stam matter is good, but the numbers are off. The might even want some hard caps at this point.
The thing is... like A thursar is stronger than ever, a thur with max dmg, max trinket dmg, +4 str, etc... that ends up being as big of a boost as an alvarin gets in speed, but the curve is different. If there were 100 dmg weapons that only thurs could use, that would be like what we have with elves. I don't advocate for that, but I am just saying that the 'numbers' work out, but in practice, they made alv viable as a fighter and with their other abilities, that was too much.
The flat bonus is big, sure, but +4 mastery dex is strong, too. means you can get 131 lean. Dude dex used to be capped at like 130 or something.
130 dex just different than... 130 int, 130 str... etc. It offers too many advantages, even outside of speed. Stam, why does dex give stam?? haha.
People got mad because they couldn't kill as elves or wear steel, whatever. It's stupid. Need to rework shit from the ground up. NOT add CC. Cuz then you get the same game with CC and dashes. So all the imbalances remain, but the way the game plays changes, for the worse imo.
Balance just isn't a priority for SV.
If it were, they would have done some common sense stuff a long time ago ( i also didn't touch this clusterf*** in quite some time)
Not gonna go into detail, but
In most games 70% damage reduction is top of the line, in MO2 it's totally basic and a lot of damage is balanced around that...poor horses
Dexterity should be the only source of movement speed ( i say that as a dexmage, i don't wanna play a short kinda fat elf that bug-equips their shield while sprinting....it's hilariously bad)
In most games Archery, Melee and Magic can ..and I know this might sound unbelievable... INTERACT WITH ONE ANOTHER IN OTHER WAYS THAN DOING DMG TO EACH OTHER.
Blocking arrows is a waste of time ( Heavy Armor is enough)
Spells can't be blocked
Melee attacks can't be interrupted/blocked by Magic. So we can click at each other for damage, what amazing next gen combat that is
It makes the fighting suck. I attack first, I win is the depth of the combat when it's not footie v footie. (when i left mage vs mage was cast spurt first to interrupt, then spurt, repeat...win)
Mounted Archery is only "balanced" by doing little damage. It's mechanically OP (more mobility than anyone else + more range than everyone else..so they balanced it by making it suck) and MA isn't the only mechanically OP thing (AoE spells, Im sure some combat abilities, towershields, stat-stacking )
The clades are balanced around pretty much ONE BUILD that is a lot better than all the other options.
You can't balance classes like:
This class wins at melee, this class regenerates mana with 87% efficiency in full plate armor, this class runs away, this class turns around in a corner and starts wasting everyones time....
This is what happens if you degrade "vision" into a buzzword to soothe players/investors.
Sorry for the rant, I hope you can still get some fun out of this "game".
If it were, they would have done some common sense stuff a long time ago ( i also didn't touch this clusterf*** in quite some time)
Not gonna go into detail, but
In most games 70% damage reduction is top of the line, in MO2 it's totally basic and a lot of damage is balanced around that...poor horses
Dexterity should be the only source of movement speed ( i say that as a dexmage, i don't wanna play a short kinda fat elf that bug-equips their shield while sprinting....it's hilariously bad)
In most games Archery, Melee and Magic can ..and I know this might sound unbelievable... INTERACT WITH ONE ANOTHER IN OTHER WAYS THAN DOING DMG TO EACH OTHER.
Blocking arrows is a waste of time ( Heavy Armor is enough)
Spells can't be blocked
Melee attacks can't be interrupted/blocked by Magic. So we can click at each other for damage, what amazing next gen combat that is
It makes the fighting suck. I attack first, I win is the depth of the combat when it's not footie v footie. (when i left mage vs mage was cast spurt first to interrupt, then spurt, repeat...win)
Mounted Archery is only "balanced" by doing little damage. It's mechanically OP (more mobility than anyone else + more range than everyone else..so they balanced it by making it suck) and MA isn't the only mechanically OP thing (AoE spells, Im sure some combat abilities, towershields, stat-stacking )
The clades are balanced around pretty much ONE BUILD that is a lot better than all the other options.
You can't balance classes like:
This class wins at melee, this class regenerates mana with 87% efficiency in full plate armor, this class runs away, this class turns around in a corner and starts wasting everyones time....
This is what happens if you degrade "vision" into a buzzword to soothe players/investors.
Sorry for the rant, I hope you can still get some fun out of this "game".
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I agree with most points other than you heavily underestimating how much damage bows do both MA and foot archers are op right now post archery bugfix (all defenses stacked 2x vs bow dmg for some reason for 3 years in the game LOL) now they do comfortable 30 through steel, and alvarins can pop armor pierce and do comfortable 40 through steel (NOT TO HEAD) not to mention weakspots. However there are tons of houses and shit around to a point where you can just run into them vs ranged characters and coutner them with that, in Sarducaa we gonna get mogged to death by ranged characters till zergs build infrastructure every 10 meters. You'll see
Urgh...Noone at SV plays the game and it shows.
Llike I said, I haven't touched this game in a while. I was kinda expecting Archery to get OP at some point, as it was bound to be, as soon as it does some decent damage.
Never liked the Armor penetration skill. It has always been a much too narrow, very bad bandaid fix.
The Zerg housing was also always off-putting to me. The houses don't fit the environment, bases can be used for pretty much free money and player-transports and the whole system incentivizes zerging.
If they wanna salvage the game, they have to work on their core systems since a lot of them don't work together. It shouldn't be too hard to somewhat balance damage and armor but it will only get harder if they keep adding stuff.
My suggestion would be to overthink a lot:
After what you said...Nerf Archery lol,
Remove towershields, Remove the Alv Speed buff,
Remove the armor-piercing for that one cladegift
Make magic somewhat blockable( percentage based on psyche, maybe armor type idk..every block-direction works, you just have to "parry" it),
Rework magic in general : remove some spells (most hitscans so most spells are parryable), rework others, make some utility spells more useful, add a competent spell that allows blocking with your bare hands --> Mages and Melee-Fighters should be able to have fun fights against one another.
Rework (nerf) armor, severly nerf Mastery and trinkets to ensure damage, mana regeneration damage reduction and jack-of-all-trades-builds are kept in check
Oh and give everyone a flat on-foot speed boost. ( no %-type stuff...just a flat value to make the movement feel better)
And that's just for some combat balance...
Edit for bad spelling and worse grammar.
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They don't need to salvage the game, its more popular then ever in any period since subs have been instated, its growing and they are listening to feedback and making the right moves, albeit slowly, but with their limited resources they are doing excellent lately. Compare contrast patch cycles from Starvault to patches from Ashes of Creation; Same engine, 200 man team vs 10 man team. The patch cycles were at about the same pace for both games but the content from Starvault was undeniably higher quality and less buggy. Both games had plenty of bugs, but Ashes struggled to even get static mobs to not fall through terrain, or to have a robust Market UI (arguably one of the most important things in a MMO), or even things as simple as the how the sun moved through the sky jarringly at 20 pixels a tick rather then smooth and naturally.
Zerging is still common and strong but solo play and duo play has never been in a better spot since the games release. Solo players are able to contest "Most" pve objectives now thanks to stronger build options then previously. If a POI or objective is zerged its easier then ever to get around the map to another objective. Easier then ever to bank/craft without guild infrastructure or housing. They've been slowly buffing solo play every patch cycle and the ecosystem is thankful for it and its a large factor in why the game is growing now as it can support more players with more playstyles.
This thread wasn't about dooming the game or the state of balance. Elves should be the king of picking fights, making them the ideal selection for solo play, but right now they are too good at picking fights that are bad for them and suffering no consequences for it. There should be tools to punish elves who get too cocky. High stamina and adrenaline cost abilities that can slow the elf down or catch back up to it after they have voluntarily committed themselves to a fight or haphazardly walked into danger. That's all im asking for, so that the small group biome can be more diverse in race selection.
Perhaps these abilities could be given to high strength requirement weapons or scale off of strength/weight as well to make them more suited for heavier, slower, stronger characters.
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yeah they gotta do something to the alvarin issue. Game is overall way better balanced but alvarins are just too big of outliers.
Oghmirs Thrusars Humans seem fine agaisnt each other and some excell at one some at the other thing. Thursars still top tier in duels to death even vs mage tamers for example now that used to statcheck them pre abilities most the time, Oghmirs good in zvz even compared to super overtuned Alvarins, but then everything small sc ale wise it's jsut alvarin alvarin alvarin, before i logged out (not due to scenario really but i had to log off and looke for a fight) my last fight was an unironicall 1v8 vs ALL alvarins, that never happens vs other clades, there is no 8 man oghmir 8 man human group going around. Alvarins are so overplayed.
Disagree on high adren high stam part btw, it doesnt need to be that overpriced. 4 adrenaline for a nice pull for poleaxe would be a cool ability, or a spear throw slowing or pulling people and costing 3 adrenaline is also fine. 1h axe throw could also work as a slow. etc etc if you make this shit 5-6 adren and 100 stam might aswell not add it unless it's giga op and 2 shots everyone. It needs to be low dmg unparriable displacement/slow. Do not overestimate it, it won't guarantee kills vs alvarins and in many sitautions just normal attack stickyback will still be better.
Here's one example, I use poleaxes now so I'll do poleaxes a realistic ability too:
Apprehend - poleaxe ability 4 adrenaline right/left
Hook with your poleaxe and pull the enemy towards you breifly slowing them 30% damage / unparriable (blockable right/left)
Same range as max range poleaxe hit which would be a stab, and slows them by 30% for 1 second meaning you get a feint off on them without them just full dipping again
4 adrenaline is very high, it does almost no damage so if they are low a stickyback normal will be better to finish them off and preserve/gain more adrenaline
4 adrenlaine cost forces you to have less combat power during the fight because you need adrenaline for when they escape, if they go full a gro on you and you play bad they can use rejuvenate or multihit abiltiies and you cant if you want apprehend.
Another one would be making spear throw 4 instead of 3 and making it actually pull people 3 meters but no slow (coz its longer range)
All these things can work BUT we have to add a massive debuff on displacement or complete immunity for 10 seconds after gettin displaced to prevent that from just being spammed in zvz to just pull mfs all the way to backline or something. Every 10-15 seconds you can get displaced slwed or perhaps even stunned by 1 ability from any source (It wont be abused becuase its colossal action economy loss same as farming adrenaline by hitting each other, hitting the enemy with normals and being defenisve and aware is way ebtter than htiting your ally during or before a fight just sot hey can cast 3 abilities that are often worse than normals)
So yeah these are easy to implement too they litearlly have code for actual CC pull with queen and harbinger tamgatons and spiders do a way smaller CC pull with some weapons and we are SOLID.
or just giga nerf alvarins already that works too
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nobody was hittin me for 40s thru cron draco
Armor pierce to head easy 40s with bow. Ill hit you 180 with a maul. You probably wear that thing once a month
nah I got no prepatch. I lost 1 set. Made some post patch, but they lowered the pierce and raised weight, so I haven't even fucked w/ it. Waiting, hoping that they fix it so I can make more.
But my point was that you said draco is shit and it wasn't... vs pierce. Steel iron fur is wack vs pierce. This is why I liked the idea of different armor types.
Reg steel draco w/ a high tier silk would be good enough to suppress bow fire as well, but you are not wrong that bow dmg is high atm, but that's why we had an anti-pierce armor. It almost makes sense haha.
You'd never hit me with a maul unless I was afk
Well bows have armor pierce and weakspot so armors arent even that good vs bows.nah I got no prepatch. I lost 1 set. Made some post patch, but they lowered the pierce and raised weight, so I haven't even fucked w/ it. Waiting, hoping that they fix it so I can make more.
But my point was that you said draco is shit and it wasn't... vs pierce. Steel iron fur is wack vs pierce. This is why I liked the idea of different armor types.
Reg steel draco w/ a high tier silk would be good enough to suppress bow fire as well, but you are not wrong that bow dmg is high atm, but that's why we had an anti-pierce armor. It almost makes sense haha.
You'd never hit me with a maul unless I was afk
they work. Defensive stance seems to lower weak spot well. Armor does matter, too. Bows don't have armor pierce afaik, that is a clade skill.
It is probably shitty, but when people say wildly ignorant shit, it offends me and I wanna be like NO, but in some cases, it is better to just wait until people realize what I was trying to say by themselves. So, we come to 'bow dmg is high,' and it is, but there was an option to build to resist... bows... daggers... spears... lances. Quite a portion of the game weapons, tbh.
I feel like the fact that you are a thur and veelas can kite you really impacts your ideas on game balance. In an ideal world, you would want the game to be deep, fun, and balanced. That's what I want.
Bows do have armor pierce ability that is highly potent. 25% is huge.
Daggers spears and lances can be parried. Lances are very weak and almost never used. Daggers and spears do slash and blunt damage too/both have armor pierce and daggers weakspot.