The contradiction and the no-win situation of the "PvP enjoyer/whiner"

[Ghanburi]

I have noticed something specific to a certain group of players, the PvP enjoyer/whiner: they complain about zergs, but when you suggest an arena idea to them, they bristle saying it is not as good as world PvP.

Logically, however, it would seem you can't have both in an MMORPG at the same time--you can't have spontaneous world PvP with player freedom (and all that in entails), and balanced numbers and other power restrictions necessarily coexisting at the same instance. When pressed, they seem to indicate that arena is too fair, too canned, for them, and world PvP is not fair enough. So what would make them happy? A battle ground?

I doubt it--for the same reasons they seem to dislike arena. I suggest that they will enjoy their time only when they get what they want from a world PvP engagement, and whine profusely when they don't. Of course, most players do not fit into this category, but those who do stand out (because their cry is loud and persistent).

So, what's my point? My point is that attempting to cater to this group of people, within the confines of this sandbox MMORPG (necessarily including open world PvP), is useless, because what they desire is close to a logical impossibility (given the constraints). When they get the highs, they will be happy, when they get the lows they bellyache about the game. It's a no-win situation for the development team. Consequently (and IMO), development should continue on along the line of the mission of the game, and pay little to no attention to the illogical moaning of this certain population.

 

[MolagAmur]

I have noticed something specific to a certain group of players, the PvP enjoyer/whiner: they complain about zergs, but when you suggest an arena idea to them, they bristle saying it is not as good as world PvP.

Logically, however, it would seem you can't have both in an MMORPG at the same time--you can't have spontaneous world PvP with player freedom (and all that in entails), and balanced numbers and other power restrictions necessarily coexisting at the same instance. When pressed, they seem to indicate that arena is too fair, too canned, for them, and world PvP is not fair enough. So what would make them happy? A battle ground?

I doubt it--for the same reasons they seem to dislike arena. I suggest that they will enjoy their time only when they get what they want from a world PvP engagement, and whine profusely when they don't. Of course, most players do not fit into this category, but those who do stand out (because their cry is loud and persistent).

So, what's my point? My point is that attempting to cater to this group of people, within the confines of this sandbox MMORPG (necessarily including open world PvP), is useless, because what they desire is close to a logical impossibility (given the constraints). When they get the highs, they will be happy, when they get the lows they bellyache about the game. It's a no-win situation for the development team. Consequently (and IMO), development should continue on along the line of the mission of the game, and pay little to no attention to the illogical moaning of this certain population.

In the earlier years of MO1 Star Vault accidentally created a game where a group of 5-10 skilled players could defeat 30 players on a regular basis. (I purposely didn't define the 30 players as skilled or non-skilled because it was always a mixture). However, the game gave smaller groups all the tools that were needed to win. The only advantage the larger group obviously had were numbers. This was also a time when TTK was much shorter because of a few reasons, but mainly the fact that Heavy Armor Training didn't exist and every warrior wasn't wearing steel or better. It was a time where pretty much everyone was in scales or bone with steel weapons of course. This allowed the smaller group to use their superior synergy and map knowledge to drag out and punish the enemy for any mistake they made...while having the tools to reset the fight as long as they used their terrain properly. The addition of PETS, much slower combat, much slower movement speed, 20+kg metal armors as the norm, clades, 360 degree blocking, etc all lowered the effectiveness of creating a well-oiled small scale group.

Now everyone just zergs up, because the game forces you to if you want to have any kind of success. It became that way for the last few years of MO1 as well. It was just an wild phenomenon that Star Vault accidently created...but it was some of the greatest times in Mortal Online pvp history. I've never played another MMO where you could fight so outnumbered like this, except for ESO. Having this ability to fight so outnumbered really made me sink my teeth into MO and made me find like-minded players who I could build this small team with. Without it, MO has just felt like just another generic zerg vs zerg MMO.

I guess the point is that its not impossible to create what the "PvP enjoyer/whiner" wants. Arena will just be a glorified town duel and will bring nothing positive the the open world aspect of the game. Which is whats always most important imo.

 

[fartbox]

Solo/small group friendly mechanics in other sandbox full loot MMOs:

Rust: Extremely Low TTK, High movement
EVE: Stargates, cloaks, dscan, local
OSRS: Singles
Albion: Mount cooldown, hellgates, corrupteds, mists, invis


Mortal 2: None and a Extremely high TTK (10minutes+ in some cases) 1v1 just to rub salt in the wound.

 

[Jackdstripper]

Its not really a contradiction. when you cant win, you whine. Whining about enemy numbers is the default setting for all elite pvpers. Dont even need to count. If you lost, its because of the enemy zerg.

 

[Gnidex]

Solo/small group friendly mechanics in other sandbox full loot MMOs:

Rust: Extremely Low TTK, High movement
EVE: Stargates, cloaks, dscan, local
OSRS: Singles
Albion: Mount cooldown, hellgates, corrupteds, mists, invis


Mortal 2: None and a Extremely high TTK (10minutes+ in some cases) 1v1 just to rub salt in the wound.

To add the main influence, UO, it had mark, recall and gate spells to instantly teleport out of a gank.

 

[Emdash]

In the earlier years of MO1 Star Vault accidentally created a game where a group of 5-10 skilled players could defeat 30 players on a regular basis. (I purposely didn't define the 30 players as skilled or non-skilled because it was always a mixture). However, the game gave smaller groups all the tools that were needed to win. The only advantage the larger group obviously had were numbers. This was also a time when TTK was much shorter because of a few reasons, but mainly the fact that Heavy Armor Training didn't exist and every warrior wasn't wearing steel or better. It was a time where pretty much everyone was in scales or bone with steel weapons of course. This allowed the smaller group to use their superior synergy and map knowledge to drag out and punish the enemy for any mistake they made...while having the tools to reset the fight as long as they used their terrain properly. The addition of PETS, much slower combat, much slower movement speed, 20+kg metal armors as the norm, clades, 360 degree blocking, etc all lowered the effectiveness of creating a well-oiled small scale group.

Now everyone just zergs up, because the game forces you to if you want to have any kind of success. It became that way for the last few years of MO1 as well. It was just an wild phenomenon that Star Vault accidently created...but it was some of the greatest times in Mortal Online pvp history. I've never played another MMO where you could fight so outnumbered like this, except for ESO. Having this ability to fight so outnumbered really made me sink my teeth into MO and made me find like-minded players who I could build this small team with. Without it, MO has just felt like just another generic zerg vs zerg MMO.

I guess the point is that its not impossible to create what the "PvP enjoyer/whiner" wants. Arena will just be a glorified town duel and will bring nothing positive the the open world aspect of the game. Which is whats always most important imo.

so many reasons, too. Map design was one. I remember when people would come to Bakti to fight. It would be like school for everyone. Then they had that ramp up and you could really chase people a long time thru the mountains. Stuff is still there, kinda, but it's not nearly as close to own. Back then it was the right distance for people to feel comfortable (tho they could still get kilt) to run to GZ but not be able to (well, they could but it was frowned upon; took a lot of guard spam calling) rely on guards. So they could dip in and out. Obviously, that's just town pvp, but that sort of stuff was important to the game, in my opinion. If there was nothing else there was always that. That's why I am so against what they did w/ guards around towns.

But in the jungle, or wherever, you could just kite people. There was so much more terrain. That's why I was trying to convince people to move to Hyllspea haha. I was like dude yea the gains are trash but the mountain terrain is fucking amazing if we actually get set up! Then some sweatlords took it over and put guard towers everywhere lul.

You could kill people who overextended and get back to your healers, true, but you can't deny that being able to run and having many entrances and exits really meant a lot for the game. Hyll unfort has many ways DOWN the mountain, and not really ways UP.

I legit never went to GK all of Mo2 so I can't speak on its design compared to MO1. IT WAS TOO FUCKING FAR. I went there once, ended up swimming on a horse, like right before I quit and then when I logged back in to play again, I abandoned my horse like free125 and suicided. rofl. I ain't even got the energy to fuck w/ that shit.

So many problems to keep people from even pvping and it's guards guards guards. And when people were easier to kill, you could get them and get away from guards. Shit was crazy. o well rip.

 

[MolagAmur]

so many reasons, too. Map design was one. I remember when people would come to Bakti to fight. It would be like school for everyone. Then they had that ramp up and you could really chase people a long time thru the mountains. Stuff is still there, kinda, but it's not nearly as close to own. Back then it was the right distance for people to feel comfortable (tho they could still get kilt) to run to GZ but not be able to (well, they could but it was frowned upon; took a lot of guard spam calling) rely on guards. So they could dip in and out. Obviously, that's just town pvp, but that sort of stuff was important to the game, in my opinion. If there was nothing else there was always that. That's why I am so against what they did w/ guards around towns.

But in the jungle, or wherever, you could just kite people. There was so much more terrain. That's why I was trying to convince people to move to Hyllspea haha. I was like dude yea the gains are trash but the mountain terrain is fucking amazing if we actually get set up! Then some sweatlords took it over and put guard towers everywhere lul.

You could kill people who overextended and get back to your healers, true, but you can't deny that being able to run and having many entrances and exits really meant a lot for the game. Hyll unfort has many ways DOWN the mountain, and not really ways UP.

I legit never went to GK all of Mo2 so I can't speak on its design compared to MO1. IT WAS TOO FUCKING FAR. I went there once, ended up swimming on a horse, like right before I quit and then when I logged back in to play again, I abandoned my horse like free125 and suicided. rofl. I ain't even got the energy to fuck w/ that shit.

So many problems to keep people from even pvping and it's guards guards guards. And when people were easier to kill, you could get them and get away from guards. Shit was crazy. o well rip.

Town PvP was such an important part of the game. Star Vault saw it as just negative griefing, but it actually created town militias instead of these fucking AI guards doing the players job for them. I was one of those noobies when I first started standing at the Fab gates looking outside seeing red names killing people. I thought it was so fuckin cool and made actually getting out into the world more rewarding. I would see groups of blues pass me and go out to fight them...and being the noob I was I would just waddle slow as fuck with my worn shortsword. It gave me the drive to want to learn and I joined my local towns guild (Silver Skulls at the time). Ever since they added guards town pvp has sucked and the world is so large getting into any kind of conflict can take hours.

Anyway I'm ranting. The game is fucking massive and boring and lacks any kind of character and I hate it. Why am I here?

 

[Teknique]

Town PvP was such an important part of the game. Star Vault saw it as just negative griefing, but it actually created town militias instead of these fucking AI guards doing the players job for them. I was one of those noobies when I first started standing at the Fab gates looking outside seeing red names killing people. I thought it was so fuckin cool and made actually getting out into the world more rewarding. I would see groups of blues pass me and go out to fight them...and being the noob I was I would just waddle slow as fuck with my worn shortsword. It gave me the drive to want to learn and I joined my local towns guild (Silver Skulls at the time). Ever since they added guards town pvp has sucked and the world is so large getting into any kind of conflict can take hours.

Anyway I'm ranting. The game is fucking massive and boring and lacks any kind of character and I hate it. Why am I here?

I had a similar experience the first time I saw a red fighting outside tindrem gates. Thought it was super cool and wanted to get my character to be that strong. It was motivation

As an aside, I tried out this patch, and the game has moved more to the direction of playable especially solo in a few ways. Mainly the task system actually makes it so there's something to actually do to farm clade and gold without it being a miserable grind.

The red system is cool, got a few 1v1s with a red player in sewers. Old system they'd just be blue until they stab you in the back and you'd have no way of knowing. Red players are however rare, maybe too rare, and it can be difficult finding pvp.

Map is wholly too large, the idea of running anywhere for an hour is game breaking. You shouldn't need a stronghold every single location on the map to do anything.

 

[ThaBadMan]

Town PvP was such an important part of the game. Star Vault saw it as just negative griefing, but it actually created town militias instead of these fucking AI guards doing the players job for them. I was one of those noobies when I first started standing at the Fab gates looking outside seeing red names killing people. I thought it was so fuckin cool and made actually getting out into the world more rewarding. I would see groups of blues pass me and go out to fight them...and being the noob I was I would just waddle slow as fuck with my worn shortsword. It gave me the drive to want to learn and I joined my local towns guild (Silver Skulls at the time). Ever since they added guards town pvp has sucked and the world is so large getting into any kind of conflict can take hours.

Anyway I'm ranting. The game is fucking massive and boring and lacks any kind of character and I hate it. Why am I here?

I had a similar experience the first time I saw a red fighting outside tindrem gates. Thought it was super cool and wanted to get my character to be that strong. It was motivation

As an aside, I tried out this patch, and the game has moved more to the direction of playable especially solo in a few ways. Mainly the task system actually makes it so there's something to actually do to farm clade and gold without it being a miserable grind.

The red system is cool, got a few 1v1s with a red player in sewers. Old system they'd just be blue until they stab you in the back and you'd have no way of knowing. Red players are however rare, maybe too rare, and it can be difficult finding pvp.

Map is wholly too large, the idea of running anywhere for an hour is game breaking. You shouldn't need a stronghold every single location on the map to do anything.

As the red outside slaying all leaving town its equally fun watching the progress in the town defenders, from boring wipes to actual pushes into the countrysides and overtime knowing how long you have until you have to pull back.

Way more fun having actual challenging fights which often evolve into huge countryside multi guild battles, Fab backdrop being renowned for these all the way back to 09. Less guards involved the better it got.

Developed players, small, medium and large guilds, alliances and a supply of player bandits, local heroes and opportunists of all kinds.

And yeah the map is way to large even for 10x the playerbase.

 

[Emdash]

As the red outside slaying all leaving town its equally fun watching the progress in the town defenders, from boring wipes to actual pushes into the countrysides and overtime knowing how long you have until you have to pull back.

Way more fun having actual challenging fights which often evolve into huge countryside multi guild battles, Fab backdrop being renowned for these all the way back to 09. Less guards involved the better it got.

Developed players, small, medium and large guilds, alliances and a supply of player bandits, local heroes and opportunists of all kinds.

And yeah the map is way to large even for 10x the playerbase.

ye, that's what I've been trying to say. SV doesn't understand how things develop. They have to develop organically.

Weird comparison, but there is capitalism, which is absolutely vicious, but if you fuck with it, it doesn't work right. You can create outcomes in economics, too, but they aren't 'valid' and they don't last or drive the beginning / middle... the drive starts from beginning (rip haven.)

It's actually complicated. The failure of sandbox is that you have to start that marble rolling @ player creation and make it end up in a place that isn't fucked up. If you start touching it at various places, it throws the whole balance off. Nubs getting camped out of the game is a problem, but it's not fixed in any way by DELETE PVP.

I played MO during some pretty dead times, and there was never a time when we couldn't pull more people than the force that came for town pvp haha. We might have been vastly outmatched skill wise, but that was our own fault.

Then TC failed in a way by pulling a lot of people away from town so that towns weren't the epicenter of action.

Like I told dood on this forum before, I have some weird life goals, and I prol won't be a part of it (but who knows?) but I am going to live to see a sandbox made right. It's gonna be so successful. It's amazing they don't have actual smart people thinking about it, haha. Like teams of scientists. You think it's funny, but you know they put that level of effort into balancing games like Leeg. A working sandbox would blow every other MMO out of the market, and even the people who were initially worried would jump on because it would be THE BEST GAME and it would have something for them to do, too. It would be like FOMO.

They gotta let the world develop before they start changing core mechanics haha.

And I never played EVE, but I think MO pre-TC was pretty close. Ironic how it seemed less sandboxy = less world action, after TC really got a foothold.