Something I've noticed regarding the most competitive players who stream

[Jackdstripper]

I hope Ghanburi is right and Henrik stops listening to all the greefer kids, and instead focuses on having a balance between pvpers and pvers communities.

The issue with Henrik is that, in his own words, he liked the RPK playstyle in UO when he was a kid. Sadly this has shaped MO into a game that caters to greefers and gankers. Naturally these types of people do no create a community, they simply make life miserable for everyone, but they especially target the most vulnerable ones like new players and solo players.

This has disastrous consequences for the growth of the game.

It has taken Henrik 12 years to “kind of” realize this, and now he is slowly relenting to the idea that there needs to be more than just ganking and greefing mechanics.

MO definitely needs lawless areas with free for all pvp, but it also needs some places with law and order. Hopefully this new direction keeps evolving.

 

[Emdash]

@Ghanburi which vets weren't interested? I just about busted a nut when I realized they were actually gonna do it. I wasn't hanging out here, tho, so I didn't know til kinda late. I'd say most of those people are gone, if they didn't like it. I can't imagine why they would have even bought it in and played beta, or esp after the fail launch. The people here care about the game. Even the ones who say they don't.

The part I'm talking about w/ Star Wars is no matter how much media criticism you give, it's not the same as sitting in the room with the director for 10 years, which is what Mortal is. haha. SV has gone pretty far to isolate themselves from portions of their community, like here... which is why it's kinda not worth posting here except if you wanna talk to certain people.

The reason people speak up here is because they believe they will be heard. I don't think anyone who dislikes the direction, unless they are wildy delusional, of Star Wars believes that their feedback is or should be taken into consideration and that there is a chance their ideas will be implemented into the next movie.

But yea... that may be Henrik's plan, but he's in damage control now. I personally believe Henrik is going thru a rough time in life. He looks spent even on his streams. I dunno if it's midlife stuff or what, or the fact that MO2 is a much harder project than he imagined, but I will agree that he probably went into it with as much joy as the rest of the playerbase, but things changed after... so yea. That's that.

 

[Teknique]

I do think it holds up to a certain extent, because there are folks still complaining about Star Wars, and those who have built whole somewhat popular media presences largely on the back of those complaints. Dissatisfaction can build momentum, and it is self-reinforcing--meaning that if you complain, inevitably others who are like minded will get behind your sentiment and you'll get that dopamine hit when they agree with you online. This emboldens you to complain more, and those complaints soon begin to devolve into often sensationalist, non-constructive bitter sniping (misery loves company). Star Wars changed, and people who really appreciated that IP did not like that. Some folks feel the same about the change form MO1 to MO2 and that current direction. I understand that, and I am sympathetic to it. What I am not sympathetic to is the sour, sometimes childish, whinging and constant belittling of the game. (EDIT: Let's be honest though, some of the MO1 vets were not even interested in giving MO2 a chance, and began with vitriol toward the game and toward SV. They have been hating since the beginning, and are only now some of them are starting to run out of steam.)

I too am very interested in seeing this type of game "work", which is one reason I tend to bristle at some of the hyperbolic trolling that goes on. As I stated earlier, this type of negativity has its own synergy, and therefore anyone who is interested in the genre of sandbox MMORPG should do their best to keep a supportive attitude, even if they are not 100% fond of the direction. We all get a bit whiny sometimes (I have on these forums a time or two), but we should try to be constructive in our criticism.

You cannot make a game for everyone, as it has been said that to make a game for everyone, you make it for no one. I believe SV is trying to stay true to the genre, again specifically sandbox MMORPG. It is my take that Henrik really feels like that genre has merit, and that if they can create the best version of it they can, it will be reasonably successful.

What I think we are seeing now (at least in part) is a reformation away from the arena genre and the pvp survival crafting genre, back toward sandbox MMORPG. Again the goal, according to Henrik, is sandbox MMORPG, and NOT pvp survival crafting, nor arena. These other genres are related to SMMORPG, but they are not the same. And, unfortunately, folks who primarily enjoy those types of games will always treat MO2 like it is one of them, and get upset when it is adjusted to better represent its mission.

When changes happen, some will fail to adapt, and they will "die out". They will cease to have fun, and they will move on (hopefully move on, instead of subjecting everyone else to their bitter complaints). As long as SV holds true to the genre of sandbox MMORPG, however imperfectly, I hope to be here to support them.

Well you bring up a great example with Star Wars although I didn’t reply due to our previous discussion in abject wastes of time. However Star Wars dropped horrible movies and myself and others complained very loudly and nonstop. I actually sent lucasfilm feedback FULL of vitriol. I stated how the only way I could make the decisions they were making was if I was intentionally trying to go out of business. I explained that we want to see content like stars wars theories Vader series, we want Dave filoni involved in all projects and if they’re releasing a game that isn’t called kotor3 then they’re failing. Since then we’ve got the obi wan series, dave filoni promoted and he dropped a bunch of successful shows like tales of the Jedi and Ashoka, and we got a kotor3 announcement albeit delayed now.

I don’t think I could be more vindicated. Maybe I need to up the nastiness against sv.

But I guess you’re just more of a lay down and take it kinda guy.


Mo2 is absolutely trying to be a game for everyone. That is why it has become so meaningless. You don’t have a frame of reference to see how watered down the game is from the first. War declarations effectively useless, tc effectively useless, houses every square inch of map that can’t be sieged. El oh el

 

[Ghanburi]

Well you bring up a great example with Star Wars although I didn’t reply due to our previous discussion in abject wastes of time. However Star Wars dropped horrible movies and myself and others complained very loudly and nonstop. I actually sent lucasfilm feedback FULL of vitriol. I stated how the only way I could make the decisions they were making was if I was intentionally trying to go out of business. I explained that we want to see content like stars wars theories Vader series, we want Dave filoni involved in all projects and if they’re releasing a game that isn’t called kotor3 then they’re failing. Since then we’ve got the obi wan series, dave filoni promoted and he dropped a bunch of successful shows like tales of the Jedi and Ashoka, and we got a kotor3 announcement albeit delayed now.

I don’t think I could be more vindicated. Maybe I need to up the nastiness against sv.

But I guess you’re just more of a lay down and take it kinda guy.

Ah, this explains a lot. I really don't think you and I speak the same language--keep on hating, I guess. I am sure it will fix everything you dislike about MO2, just like you fixed SW As an aside, have you seen The South Park episode, The Panderverse? Yeah... it is probably a warning sign when your real life behavior apes Cartman. Anyway man, peace to you.

 

[Tzone]

Ah, this explains a lot. I really don't think you and I speak the same language--keep on hating, I guess. I am sure it will fix everything you dislike about MO2, just like you fixed SW As an aside, have you seen The South Park episode, The Panderverse? Yeah... it is probably a warning sign when your real life behavior apes Cartman. Anyway man, peace to you.

bro you are unhinged

 

[Ghanburi]

@Ghanburi which vets weren't interested?

Did I say they were disinterested? If so, that was a mistake. What I meant to say, and thought I did say, was that some of them were hating on the project from the beginning. By "beginning" I should have been more clear and said the beginning of my involvement, which was around beta.

 

[Tzone]

Did I say they were disinterested? If so, that was a mistake. What I meant to say, and thought I did say, was that some of them were hating on the project from the beginning. By "beginning" I should have been more clear and said the beginning of my involvement, which was around beta.

I started playing in the beta and was not a hater. I was very optimistic gave lots of feedback to help the game which I still try to do. Henrik is just out of touch and doesnt know what hes doing. Hes too scared to do a lot of things with out seeing if the community would like it.
Like Oghmirs being super OP and needing a nerf, along with tower shields and daggers. Daggers got the balance they needed but it took far far too long for Henrik to come around and do it. We got to play through half a year of something being broken before Henrik realizes it despite all the feedback he is given.

Its just clear hes out of the loop of the game.

The community knows what the issues are and everyone usually agrees on the problems to the point its just public knowledge and common sense.
No matter who you kick out of the game over them being "hatefull" the majority of the incoming new players will eventually come to the same conclusions as the previous "veterans". Most of the complainers are not even mo players. Most MO players gave up a while ago. Its just us MO2 newbies giving open criticism now.
There are plenty of WOW carebear clones out there, we are playing mortal because it has open world PvP.

IDK what world you guys are living in saying that henrik likes Red players but he despises red players. Hes actively trying to make them quit the game which increasingly horrible changes that have been draining this game of players. Not just reds but just PvPers in general to include ARPKs who get caught up in the punishments for being a PvPer.

 

[Philocypher]

One major problem with the core design of the MMORPG is the focus on competition rather than cooperation. It's one thing that I really enjoy but thinking objectively...

an MMORPG is a success or a failure based on its ability to foster community. Why has WoW held the crown for so many years? People play it because their friends play it. From its inception, its focus for the community has been to bring them together. Mortal focuses on tearing people apart.

We love it for its brutality, we love it because of the tension and conflict. That's something it does right...but we can't deny that it's also its bad for business.

Remember flux parties? Hundreds of players participated in it. Enemies united for a common goal. It was the ONE ACTIVITY in the history of MO2 that caused the community to put their differences aside and collaborate. Henrik personally mishandled that situation and directly caused major economic disruption. Not by allowing flux parties to go on for so long nor by removing them from the game but by saying they'll be removed and then leaving them in game for over a month afterwards. This caused the community to flux party like there was no tomorrow. Now, we've got dozens of people who are still sitting on bags of flux. But that's not the point...the point is that flux parties were the only thing in the history of MO2 that fostered community and it had to be nuked.

The thing that needs to happen to make mortal online 2 a mainstream game is not fancy tech like UE5. It's not expanding guardzones. I'm sure giving new players enhanced safety would make the game more accessible and certainly cause less players to quit after losing their molarium...but the real way to grow into a mainstream game is implementing systems or activities that bring players together.

Even the krampus stuff drives wedges between players, we're all competing to pick garbage up off the ground.

I don't know what can be added to the game to bring people together...but that's what's needed. Something like a flux party where rewards are multiplied, not divided.

 

[Teknique]

One major problem with the core design of the MMORPG is the focus on competition rather than cooperation. It's one thing that I really enjoy but thinking objectively...

an MMORPG is a success or a failure based on its ability to foster community. Why has WoW held the crown for so many years? People play it because their friends play it. From its inception, its focus for the community has been to bring them together. Mortal focuses on tearing people apart.

We love it for its brutality, we love it because of the tension and conflict. That's something it does right...but we can't deny that it's also its bad for business.

Remember flux parties? Hundreds of players participated in it. Enemies united for a common goal. It was the ONE ACTIVITY in the history of MO2 that caused the community to put their differences aside and collaborate. Henrik personally mishandled that situation and directly caused major economic disruption. Not by allowing flux parties to go on for so long nor by removing them from the game but by saying they'll be removed and then leaving them in game for over a month afterwards. This caused the community to flux party like there was no tomorrow. Now, we've got dozens of people who are still sitting on bags of flux. But that's not the point...the point is that flux parties were the only thing in the history of MO2 that fostered community and it had to be nuked.

The thing that needs to happen to make mortal online 2 a mainstream game is not fancy tech like UE5. It's not expanding guardzones. I'm sure giving new players enhanced safety would make the game more accessible and certainly cause less players to quit after losing their molarium...but the real way to grow into a mainstream game is implementing systems or activities that bring players together.

Even the krampus stuff drives wedges between players, we're all competing to pick garbage up off the ground.

I don't know what can be added to the game to bring people together...but that's what's needed. Something like a flux party where rewards are multiplied, not divided.

It’s just simply not that type of game. There needs to be a strong solo game play loop that even if a bully comes and takes everything away from you, then you have the baseline. It’s what I liked about mo. The status change from refugee to king of the world. The game just needs to feel good whether your refugee or king. When I was down bad I’d retreat to the far reaches of belrim and fish crabs. Just everything in this mo2 is frustrating for me. There’s nothing that I want to do regardless of guild/solo/alliance whatever my status is.

 

[Ghanburi]

I started playing in the beta and was not a hater. I was very optimistic gave lots of feedback to help the game which I still try to do. Henrik is just out of touch and doesnt know what hes doing. Hes too scared to do a lot of things with out seeing if the community would like it.
Like Oghmirs being super OP and needing a nerf, along with tower shields and daggers. Daggers got the balance they needed but it took far far too long for Henrik to come around and do it. We got to play through half a year of something being broken before Henrik realizes it despite all the feedback he is given.

Its just clear hes out of the loop of the game.

Do you think, perhaps, SV is aware of such things and that it just takes them a long time to address them due to limited resources? That also, perhaps, they have other priorities? That maybe they are not just being lazy, ignorant or incompetent?

....
There are plenty of WOW carebear clones out there, we are playing mortal because it has open world PvP.

Of course, you can play the game for whatever reason you like. However, Henrik, according to many of his streams, has maintained stanchly and with repetition that MO2 is not just an "open world PvP" game. It is a sandbox MMORPG which includes open world PvP as an integral part (as you might expect). Since you've been around since beta, I am probably not telling you something you didn't already know. Now, you and others may not like this, but according to guy in charge, that is the case. Also, whilst I am sure SV appreciates constructive criticism and feedback, they are in no way obligated to make the game that you, or I, would like.

As far as some of the newest changes affecting ARPK play and other PvP play unduly, I do think that is something they will address. However, it will probably take longer than anyone would like, including SV.

 

[Iloros]

Pets are incredibly over powered and unbalanced. If you go melee with a pet for example you barely lose anything and gain a pet that tanks a bunch of HP and does free dmg.

Esp. ritualism

All top players in this game play melee because its the strongest class in the hands of a pro.

In almost all situations a heavy foot fighter with a melee weapon and a long bow will win.

Sure they will sit there and complain about how easy mages are to play, and op pets, etc but they know full well that in a 1vs1 a geared footie is the apex predator.

A good Dex mage with a Molva/Campadon stomps a geared footie. Esp. a Campadon. It aint close. 5 tlashes, dead, corrupt all the way, try to purify? Campadon just dealt 50 dmg to you while outtanking you by 5x.

 

[Hodo]

The whole, "why are you wasting your time talking about a game that you don't like" argument is really tired and sad. The time it takes to comment is negligible. No other purpose is simply a lie, I use game knowledge to point out the glaring differences in game quality from the first to the 2nd game. Your callous indifference to the people who's favorite hobby was gutted speaks volumes about you.

I don't need you to tell me about other games and hobbies. Recently I was top 50k in an actually competitive game called Counter Strike. If anything you NEED ME to explain hobbies to YOU. Since you can pallate this piece of trash.

I'm obviously not incapable of doing something else other than post on these forums like you seem to be insinuating.

You're obviously a smart guy, come with a half decent argument, because what you've come with so far...trash.

and indeed in my honest opinion no one is better suited to give feedback to star vault than I am.

View attachment 6237

Anyway since you're so concerned about the time investment involved in posting on the forums, i'll explain it you. In the morning I usually take a greasy shit, and look at my phone and these forums. At some point during work i'm bored I look at my phone. Maybe later in the day I look at my phone.

I probably spent more time writing this post then cumulatively in the last week.

NOW CAN WE PLEASE DISCUSS SOMETHING ELSE OTHER THAN THE POSTERS TIME

I dont understand what that picture has to do with the discussion? I mean I could post a picture of how I was the top 5 tankers in WWIIOnline? Or how I was in the top 10 in Gloria Victus in PVP? or how I broke the criminal rating system by only killing players in Star Citizen with over 475 kills and zero deaths. Or how when I fly a Mirage 2000C in DCS I fear nothing and can do just about any mission thrown my way with ease. But none of that matters in a MO2 discussion.

 

[Hodo]

It seems to me that, according to serious melee fighter types, anything that isn't melee fighting, be it pets or magic, is almost by default overpowered. Having spent a great deal of time watching streamers who focus on melee, this is a common sentiment. Further, most really sweaty players, who have thousands of hours in the game engaging in completive play AND who tend to win most fights, are playing melee fighters. Is this not contradictory, if magic/pets are, in fact, more powerful? Seems odd to me.

Most of those streamers, while I like many of them, are very VERY narrow minded. Lets take Lordus for example, he used to be one of those who complained that mages were overpowered and broken... then he took time to learn about them and he quickly realized that they are only OP against CERTAIN builds.. his build just happened to be extremely weak to magic, 10 psy and all. Its like saying that a character in D&D with 8 Charisma sucks in conversation based roles... well yes.

This goes back to the issue with racial balance in game. Some races just suck against some things.. Thursar - Kallard the common melee meta build is VERY weak to magic. But the Thursar - Tin or Sard is not as weak to magic, but is pretty poor in 1v1 melee compared to the Thur-Kal.

As long as people chase the min/max build or also known as meta they will encounter the yin to their yang.

 

[Teknique]

I dont understand what that picture has to do with the discussion? I mean I could post a picture of how I was the top 5 tankers in WWIIOnline? Or how I was in the top 10 in Gloria Victus in PVP? or how I broke the criminal rating system by only killing players in Star Citizen with over 475 kills and zero deaths. Or how when I fly a Mirage 2000C in DCS I fear nothing and can do just about any mission thrown my way with ease. But none of that matters in a MO2 discussion.

Because the dumb dumb came into every thread implying I don’t do anything but post on the forums. That I’m incapable of pursuing hobbies due to my obession of mortal online. Which was just a giant straw man

 

[Hodo]

Because the dumb dumb came into every thread implying I don’t do anything but post on the forums. That I’m incapable of pursuing hobbies due to my obession of mortal online. Which was just a giant straw man

God I thought we were over the use of "straw man" in arguments. You should have done the big boy thing and just ignored him and moved on.

 

[tokodoki]

It seems to me that, according to serious melee fighter types, anything that isn't melee fighting, be it pets or magic, is almost by default overpowered. Having spent a great deal of time watching streamers who focus on melee, this is a common sentiment. Further, most really sweaty players, who have thousands of hours in the game engaging in completive play AND who tend to win most fights, are playing melee fighters. Is this not contradictory, if magic/pets are, in fact, more powerful? Seems odd to me. I’ve been using the Heyday app for my gaming streams, and it’s been a fantastic tool. The AI helps me clip and organize my best moments without hassle. Although it’s still in its early stages, the potential for content management is immense. It lacks direct streaming integration, which would be a great addition. Nonetheless, Heyday has made my streaming workflow more efficient, allowing me to focus on gaming and interaction with my viewers.

In the gaming community, opinions on game balance are diverse and often subjective. Here’s an example of a user opinion on the matter:
“From my perspective, the debate on whether melee fighting or other elements like magic and pets are overpowered in games is a nuanced one. While melee enthusiasts might view non-melee strategies as inherently stronger, this doesn’t always align with competitive outcomes. Top-tier players often gravitate towards melee combat, achieving consistent victories, which suggests that melee can be just as, if not more, effective. The key lies in skill mastery and strategic play, rather than the inherent power of the combat style. Ultimately, balance is a complex issue that developers must address by considering various playstyles and feedback from the gaming community.