Risk Vs Reward & Combat Balancing in Full loot MMO's.

fartbox

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Hello; it seems you are progressing the game rules in a favorable direction for a higher population. With Red names, melee abilities and turn caps coming shortly these will assist greatly in quality of life for a "median player" otherwise known as a casual gamer. I'd like to see melee combat progress more into abilities and perhaps using your basic attacks/parrys/taking damage as ways to charge those abilities. This will shift the meta from a defensive one to an offensive one.

Offensive metas are always better because it allows for more action. Let me explain: In an offensive meta when a group of 4 fights a group of 8 and they kill 3 or 4, even though they lose, they still feel accomplished, they still feel like they got a good fight, even if they didn't. This feeling is what keeps them playing. In defensive meta's it is much harder to generate this result when we see 2x1 disparities unless the disparitied is extremely over-geared and skilled vs the other party. Offensive meta's serve the median, therefore they are good. This is also why Poker(NLH) is more popular then Chess despite Chess having a much higher skillcap due to its defensive meta. Poker is an offensive meta and it serves the median player, providing only moderate edges for professionals vs casuals.

Red name change: It is excellent, we should strive to make areas around blue cities safer, but not completely safe. We want to ease people into conflict, at their own pace. Keeping character progression and wealth generation methods tied to dangerous areas is a good way to ease people out. Risk vs Reward is what this is commonly referred to. I still think we could see benefit from adding roaming guards of "Guild Guard" strength around blue cities. Perhaps in a 2-3km radius.

However we need to keep in mind this is a PVP game, we should not alienate the people who PVP. My recommendation is to reward their risk. For areas outside starter zones consider adding more red priests, more "cave camps", places to bank and craft. and consider adding horses right outside of those camps, at their door essentially. As the areas get progressively more dangerous they should also get progressively more convenient to play in, it makes sense in Mortals gameflow, in my opinion anyway. Consider adding a horse spawn to Gaul Kor. It's a nice city, however no one lives there and it is practically dead content besides miner alts due to its distance from horses due to horses being borderline required to play the game.

We expect people to die in dangerous areas. We should strive to re-horse them and re-gear them and get them back into the action as fast as possible in these areas.


Leave the inconvenience of distant low spawn-rate horse spawns to safer areas near blue cities.

Also, anything moving away from the current resurrection meta is going to be good. The current meta revolves around player placed objects(houses/strongholds) because the extreme lack of static banks/resurrections in the game. Less houses are good, less player structures are good. They are a massive performance drag and they cuck the landscape, ruining immersion, they are also impossible to balance; dungeon strongholds are an example of this. So anything that moves away from them will be positive for the game.
 
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Jackdstripper

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i disagree on the offensive meta. All it does is reward zergs as focus firing becomes the main strat when offence is preferred. Currently, a good blocker can last a long time even when focused fired by multiple enemies. Give people an easy ability to bypass blocking, and the incentive will be to have as many people as possible attack the same person to insta pop him.
The group that has more will kill quicker. This forces people to get even more zergy.
This was the meta in MO1 for a very long time mostly because blocking was total garbage. most fights would quickly devolve into the smaller group running away to kite-and-heal, with the odd double back push to see if you could insta pop someone. You couldnt play defensive so the only way to stay alive was to run away. So everyone always did.

All thats needed imo is a way to eliminate spinning. Either with turn caps or adding a double tap hop, or adding a kick that if hits you in the back it staggers you. Something that makes spinning just too risky or just impractical.
 
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Rahz

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I really hope the "abilities" won't turn this game into a tab targeting fest .
I think with the removal of spinning to hide the animations, its time to get some interesting mechanics. Maybe something like running a little faster when running with a fully charged overhead strike (for high stamina cost to finish off ppl as oghmir/thursar) or a nice spinning strike that strikes everyone around you when you've charged a Left/right swing for a little while. I would overall favor a offensive meta for smallscale fights, since attacking your opponent should be rewarded in a fight more so than stalling a fight. But Zergs, of course, make this impossible to balance. For Zergs it's either giving them a speed debuff when surrounded by 10+ allies or giving other people the ability to hide from them. Maybe something like a sneaking skill that helps you blend in with the environment and lets you sneak out of sight a little easier.
Absolutely agree with the horse spawns and I would maybe add " make everyone a little bit faster" just because the map is so huge and oghmirs for example are unbearably slow.
 

fartbox

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i disagree on the offensive meta. All it does is reward zergs as focus firing becomes the main strat when offence is preferred. Currently, a good blocker can last a long time even when focused fired by multiple enemies. Give people an easy ability to bypass blocking, and the incentive will be to have as many people as possible attack the same person to insta pop him.
The group that has more will kill quicker. This forces people to get even more zergy.
This was the meta in MO1 for a very long time mostly because blocking was total garbage. most fights would quickly devolve into the smaller group running away to kite-and-heal, with the odd double back push to see if you could insta pop someone. You couldnt play defensive so the only way to stay alive was to run away. So everyone always did.

All thats needed imo is a way to eliminate spinning. Either with turn caps or adding a double tap hop, or adding a kick that if hits you in the back it staggers you. Something that makes spinning just too risky or just impractical.


I have played nearly every open-world PVP MMO that has existed in the last two decades. MO2 has some of the most unfavorable odds for outnumbered fights because of the defensive meta. Things couldn't get any worse as far as balancing outnumbered fights in MO2 then they already are. Truly I don't think i've ever played a game where it was harder to win a 2v6 then in MO2.

The current meta in MO2 makes winning outnumbered fights uncommon and it makes it so an inexperienced player can never beat an experienced player in a 1v1. Either of these things on its own is bad for a game, but both together is extremely bad.
 

Jackdstripper

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The current meta in MO2 makes winning outnumbered fights uncommon and it makes it so an inexperienced player can never beat an experienced player in a 1v1.

Seems like its working correctly then. Skill wins every time. What else do you want?
 
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Emdash

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Heyo.

I'm not gonna quote your post, but there are some things I take issue with and things I agree with. I think this part really needs to be read by everyone. Sometimes people say something that is in many ways genius, and I don't think it's actually been conceived IN THAT FORM by many people... devs / players who offer suggestions etc.

"Offensive metas are always better because it allows for more action. Let me explain: In an offensive meta when a group of 4 fights a group of 8 and they kill 3 or 4, even though they lose, they still feel accomplished, they still feel like they got a good fight, even if they didn't."

That is like real upon real. Offensive meta is better for reasons other than that, too, but that is something SV should write on the wall. If it's 4 v 8 of people who understand how to position each other, there will be no kills, but if it's 4 v 8 of people who are zergin' or medium skilled players, it's absolutely true. Getting one kill is worth it. Me n oykd got into some crazy zergfest in the desert and ended up getting only one kill but it was fun, cuz there were fat magi rolling around everywhere. We got the dude on the ground gfg. It was a tough, we both died for it, but that moment of coming together and demolishing him felt so good.

The defensive meta is aids. Skill cap lol. Like I said, I feel people lack imagination in a lot of cases, and if you don't see the skill of an offensive meta you are DERPIN. If you got 8 and you gotta worry about over extending v 4 and possibly becoming 7 (and it repeating until the 4 actually wins,) that's very cut throat and very high skill cap. It's skill cap of both mechanics (on consoles would be called 'stick skills) and executive planning. Stick skills should not dominate the game. You don't have to play smart if you can parry and you have people behind you. You don't even really have to watch your stam too much. The one thing that changes this is magi as they can spike you down. But, again, mage spike becomes MORE meaningful with cutthroat melee.

Turn caps, to me, do not make the game more nub friendly. Spins are fun. Being able to fight people behind you, in front of you, etc, do your little taz thing. Spinning is only wack when it's 1v1 and people are having a 3-4 minute parry fest where they hide their attacks with spins / other things. That's pretty dumb. I don't think even SV's addition of special attacks is going to fix the problem if they don't make the game more cut throat. You should be able to burn someone down if they are out of position, period. If 8 people are pacing around thinking of how they are going to attack, the 4 should be able to isolate and destroy, and even if in the end they are overcome, yeah, it seems like a good fight. There is nothing 'good fight' about excessive parry.

The attempt to make this game a surgical duel sim is super luls on so many levels. It doesn't help team fights, so it's nonsense when people say DA GAM BALANCED FOR TEAM FIGHTS. Nah, team fights should be way more brutal. There should be no o shit I stammed out lemme parry til I get healed.

If I could put it into words, the reason very little can be done by the group of 4 vs 8 competent players (even if they don't watch their position or w/e) is because by raising the time to kill / defense they made it so that you can overcome your mistakes. Good players still make mistakes. Usually! Only the best of the best understand positioning well and how to push, etc. That's one thing I can say I appreciate about oykd is a drunk as he can be, if I go in, we can even be not on coms and he sees it happening and is right there. That's more rare than you think. You go in, you get back out, someone is dead, you repeat... that's also skill based. But with the defense heavy meta, the guys who think they are MO masters are just gonna parry everything and eventually whittle you down, prol w mage damage. It's really trash. Worse: it's not fun. It's autistic, for lack of a better word. Like I said, it relies way too heavily on one element.

But that line re: action is golden. You should post that everywhere you can. YOU MIGHT NOT KNOW U JUST SPOKE MAD TRUTH. BARS.
 

manure

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The idea of placing even more guards in this game, and this time OUTSIDE TOWNS, is unbelievably bad !

The only thing its going to achieve is to eliminate small scale quick PvP (for those casual gamers who dont have enough time to travel the whole map to find someone to pvp)... Its much faster to find people near the big cities. And then, ress or bank, reequip and go find another fight.
Instead of riding for 30 minutes to find a group of people with ultra strong pets to gank you and then having to prepare to travel for 30 minutes again...

There are 6463728282286363 guards inside of any towns yet. I am not kidding... Go check for yourself... There is more guards than ants on sugar...
And the new idea is to put guards OUTSIDE TOWNS as well ??

Im sorry. This is not a good idea at all.

Besides, there are other problems that these smart devs did not think about...
For example... You re fighting OUTCASTS outside town in the road... You are almost killing them.. and suddenly, you find a god damn NPC guard patrolling on the road outside town... and the sob NPC guard insta kills the outcasts, and you lose all the damned loot.
How about that ?
Is it well designed to you ?
Come on, lets be serious here.... There can NOT be guards outside town on a full loot game.
Period.
 
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Wilhelm Windlicht

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The idea of placing even more guards in this game, and this time OUTSIDE TOWNS, is unbelievably bad !

The only thing its going to achieve is to eliminate small scale quick PvP (for those casual gamers who dont have enough time to travel the whole map to find someone to pvp)... Its much faster to find people near the big cities. And then, ress or bank, reequip and go find another fight.
Instead of riding for 30 minutes to find a group of people with ultra strong pets to gank you and then having to prepare to travel for 30 minutes again...

There are 6463728282286363 guards inside of any towns yet. I am not kidding... Go check for yourself... There is more guards than ants on sugar...
And the new idea is to put guards OUTSIDE TOWNS as well ??

Im sorry. This is not a good idea at all.

Besides, there are other problems that these smart devs did not think about...
For example... You re fighting OUTCASTS outside town in the road... You are almost killing them.. and suddenly, you find a god damn NPC guard patrolling on the road outside town... and the sob NPC guard insta kills the outcasts, and you lose all the damned loot.
How about that ?
Is it well designed to you ?
Come on, lets be serious here.... There can NOT be guards outside town on a full loot game.
Period.
There are guardless towns for those who want quick fights ... and guarded towns for those who dont
 

manure

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There are guardless towns for those who want quick fights ... and guarded towns for those who dont
Thats not a valid statement.
If so, I could also say " There are carebear games with pvp trigger and safe areas for those who dont like being killed by other players, and There are full loot games like MO2 for those who prefer exciting games" !

Plus, have you EVER gone to any of the guardless towns in this game ? Kranesh, cave camp, gaul kor... 100% empty.
If you see more than ZERO people, jackpot !
The jungle camp has a little bit people... but that place sucks anyway.

The point is... Guards should NEVER BE outside towns !
If we use the same logic, they should add random monsters roaming INSIDE towns attacking people on vendors. How about that ? Bandits in Tindrem alleys... Wolves in the priest cave inside Moh KI....
 

fartbox

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The idea of placing even more guards in this game, and this time OUTSIDE TOWNS, is unbelievably bad !

The only thing its going to achieve is to eliminate small scale quick PvP (for those casual gamers who dont have enough time to travel the whole map to find someone to pvp)... Its much faster to find people near the big cities. And then, ress or bank, reequip and go find another fight.
Instead of riding for 30 minutes to find a group of people with ultra strong pets to gank you and then having to prepare to travel for 30 minutes again...

There are 6463728282286363 guards inside of any towns yet. I am not kidding... Go check for yourself... There is more guards than ants on sugar...
And the new idea is to put guards OUTSIDE TOWNS as well ??

Im sorry. This is not a good idea at all.

Besides, there are other problems that these smart devs did not think about...
For example... You re fighting OUTCASTS outside town in the road... You are almost killing them.. and suddenly, you find a god damn NPC guard patrolling on the road outside town... and the sob NPC guard insta kills the outcasts, and you lose all the damned loot.
How about that ?
Is it well designed to you ?
Come on, lets be serious here.... There can NOT be guards outside town on a full loot game.
Period.

MO2 will never gain population unless changes are made to the combat meta, risk vs reward and time management. I'm not trying to appeal to people like you, who have extreme bias. My appeal is to Henrik and the development team.

People will simply play Albion, OSRS, EVE or whatever the trendy survival game is at the moment. My discord friends list is full of people i've met from mortal but when I scroll down, of the people who have their current game listed, most of them are not playing Mortal but they are playing games similar to Mortal like Albion. Why do you think people prefer these games over Mortal, do you even have a hypothesis, or is that even important to you?... It should be.
 
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ElPerro

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I have played nearly every open-world PVP MMO that has existed in the last two decades. MO2 has some of the most unfavorable odds for outnumbered fights because of the defensive meta. Things couldn't get any worse as far as balancing outnumbered fights in MO2 then they already are. Truly I don't think i've ever played a game where it was harder to win a 2v6 then in MO2.

The current meta in MO2 makes winning outnumbered fights uncommon and it makes it so an inexperienced player can never beat an experienced player in a 1v1. Either of these things on its own is bad for a game, but both together is extremely bad.
I do agree that the combat is too defensive atm but Id balance it by tweaking the base combat rather than adding gimmicks like unblockable special attacks. Instead just increase the dmg of half charged attacks a bit, it might make combat more spammy like MO1 but at least you could finish ppl turtling without having to coordinate attacks on discord. Also increasing stam regen would help alot, maybe a small stam gain when landing counter hits to help 1vX.

But I would say cheezing with pets, tower shields, 100 dmg weakspot daggers, magic aoe with tactician, etc. favor zergs alot more than the bare combat mechanics.
 

Serverus

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Moh’ki
I disagree with your idea about making Offensive the meta. Your philosophy about poker vs chess I also disagree with and a lot of players in this community may prefer strategic chess over fast pace poker. To be fair the damage is already OP with all of the ruber trinkets and the unbalance of weapons. Also we have to include ping. If you make the offense any faster Europeans with 10 Ping will surely abuse this and it will be worst that it already is.

My suggestion would be to change the sprinting mechanics. The fact that dexterity is kinda broken and you can run faster with your weapon drawn already gives the offensive meta the advantage. In reality someone without a weapon drawn should run faster. I hope this is changed in the future. I know MO1 it was this way, but we have to think about the population. They wont understand this backwards mechanic. And they will get cut down every time trying to get away not understanding this mechanic. Something to consider.


Also its not just a PvP game. Its an MMORPG game that should essentially offer something for everyone.

@Henrik Nyström
 
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manure

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MO2 will never gain population unless changes are made to the combat meta, risk vs reward and time management. I'm not trying to appeal to people like you, who have extreme bias. My appeal is to Henrik and the development team.

People will simply play Albion, OSRS, EVE or whatever the trendy survival game is at the moment. My discord friends list is full of people i've met from mortal but when I scroll down, of the people who have their current game listed, most of them are not playing Mortal but they are playing games similar to Mortal like Albion. Why do you think people prefer these games over Mortal, do you even have a hypothesis, or is that even important to you?... It should be.
I can tell you several reasons that make people play these other games instead of Mortal Online...
And you will notice that NONE OF THEM is because of lack of guards outside towns.

Placing guards outside towns wont bring these people back to MO2, for gods sake.

Mortal Online is great, but everything you want to do takes an eternity.
Plus, theres a lack of interesting things to do besides fighting.
They should add thieving, poisoning, ship building, monsters on sea, caravans, town life, etc etc
These kind of things would attract more people.

Placing guards outside town DONT BRING PLAYERS.

The game is lacking CONTENT... its not lacking GUARDS.

Damnit
 

Midas

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I really hope the "abilities" won't turn this game into a tab targeting fest .
I think with the removal of spinning to hide the animations, its time to get some interesting mechanics. Maybe something like running a little faster when running with a fully charged overhead strike (for high stamina cost to finish off ppl as oghmir/thursar) or a nice spinning strike that strikes everyone around you when you've charged a Left/right swing for a little while. I would overall favor a offensive meta for smallscale fights, since attacking your opponent should be rewarded in a fight more so than stalling a fight. But Zergs, of course, make this impossible to balance. For Zergs it's either giving them a speed debuff when surrounded by 10+ allies or giving other people the ability to hide from them. Maybe something like a sneaking skill that helps you blend in with the environment and lets you sneak out of sight a little easier.
Absolutely agree with the horse spawns and I would maybe add " make everyone a little bit faster" just because the map is so huge and oghmirs for example are unbearably slow.
running faster with a weapon out is already ass backwards. you should run faster while being defensive or out of combat mode. its like this in almost all games for a reason.
 

Jackdstripper

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running faster with a weapon out is already ass backwards. you should run faster while being defensive or out of combat mode. its like this in almost all games for a reason.
To be fair this mechanic was implemented because otherwise it would be impossible to finish an opponent with a melee weapon. People would constantly put their weapon away, run away and bandage if it worked the other way. The problem is that the guy trying to finish his opponent also needs to use stamina to swing his weapon, so he always has less than the guy running away. If he is also slower, its completely pointless.

Running and bandaging was just way too strong in MO1 so they nerfed it hard. Now, if you put your weapon away to bandage, you wont be able to outrun your opponent.
 

Midas

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To be fair this mechanic was implemented because otherwise it would be impossible to finish an opponent with a melee weapon. People would constantly put their weapon away, run away and bandage if it worked the other way. The problem is that the guy trying to finish his opponent also needs to use stamina to swing his weapon, so he always has less than the guy running away. If he is also slower, its completely pointless.

Running and bandaging was just way too strong in MO1 so they nerfed it hard. Now, if you put your weapon away to bandage, you wont be able to outrun your opponent.
heres the thing , its not fair. the charecters that need to be able to kite cannot. unless your a specific race you cannot kite. its not a good solution. this is one of the reasons magic users are complaining about clunkyness. to be able to cast spells you hafto unequip your weapon then cast then re arm your weapon and run. this is a fundamental flaw. maybe when they add weapon abilities. the only other way to fix the balance is to make armor weight decrease dexterity on equip per piece/weight wich makes sense you put on plate you lose some dexterity.
 

fartbox

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I can tell you several reasons that make people play these other games instead of Mortal Online...
And you will notice that NONE OF THEM is because of lack of guards outside towns.

Placing guards outside towns wont bring these people back to MO2, for gods sake.

Mortal Online is great, but everything you want to do takes an eternity.
Plus, theres a lack of interesting things to do besides fighting.
They should add thieving, poisoning, ship building, monsters on sea, caravans, town life, etc etc
These kind of things would attract more people.

Placing guards outside town DONT BRING PLAYERS.

The game is lacking CONTENT... its not lacking GUARDS.

Damnit
People are never going to play a game they feel they can't be competitive in. When you read through steam reviews most players quit with under 200 hours. They would never get to the sea, they would never get to caravans, they would never get to poisoning.

The chief complaint from the players quitting is 1. The combat system, 2. The fact that "starter cities" are extremely dangerous. And they are not wrong on either of these. Gaul Kor is unironically safer then Fabernum and the melee combat system is unsurpassable for many players with low mechanical skill ceilings. They don't know how to put their thoughts in to words but I can for them.

I win most of my duels in Fabernum, I am somewhere around the top 10% of melee players. Not a great player for sure but I win more then I lose. But you will not see me defend this combat system ever because it's absolutely the worst i've ever encountered in any MMO. You have to remember this is a MMO, it is NOT a matchmade game with ELO. You can't put this hyper skill-cap meta into a MMO, it literally does not work. People quit, other MMO's have tried, they failed. There are many examples, don't make the same mistakes as all the other dead Full-Loot games. And you shouldn't be able to farm noobs on repeat near starter cities.
 

fartbox

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Seems like its working correctly then. Skill wins every time. What else do you want?
Thats exactly why the game isn't popular. For the same reasons more people are willing to play No' Limit Texas Hold'em for money as opposed to Chess, for the same reasons League of legends gets 10-11million players a day while Dota only gets 200k.

If Mortal was the ONLY game in the open-world PvP market I wouldn't even posting because more people would be playing. But it's not the only one, it has a ton of competition from survival games and other MMOs. But I want the game to survive because I don't want to have to go back to OSRS or Albion and I prefer persistence. You should want the game to survive too, so you can keep playing it. It can't survive on 1200 players daily.

I'm here to make suggestions I think will improve the player count. We have already tried it your way, for 10+ years. It hasn't worked. You need to consider making compromises or the game will die. I'm not saying take the skill-cap out, i'm not saying make the game safe, i'm saying just meet somewhere in the middle. Give the fish(noobs) just enough wins to keep them coming back. Game theory just doesn't exist in Chess or Poker, it exists in all games. It is the understanding of how humans interact with games, how they develop strategies(metas) to win at it. Because if they can never win... they won't play.
 

manure

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People are never going to play a game they feel they can't be competitive in. When you read through steam reviews most players quit with under 200 hours. They would never get to the sea, they would never get to caravans, they would never get to poisoning.

The chief complaint from the players quitting is 1. The combat system, 2. The fact that "starter cities" are extremely dangerous. And they are not wrong on either of these. Gaul Kor is unironically safer then Fabernum and the melee combat system is unsurpassable for many players with low mechanical skill ceilings. They don't know how to put their thoughts in to words but I can for them.

I win most of my duels in Fabernum, I am somewhere around the top 10% of melee players. Not a great player for sure but I win more then I lose. But you will not see me defend this combat system ever because it's absolutely the worst i've ever encountered in any MMO. You have to remember this is a MMO, it is NOT a matchmade game with ELO. You can't put this hyper skill-cap meta into a MMO, it literally does not work. People quit, other MMO's have tried, they failed. There are many examples, don't make the same mistakes as all the other dead Full-Loot games. And you shouldn't be able to farm noobs on repeat near starter cities.
I am sorry man.
But I continue to respectfully disagree.

Making this game to look like all those other MMOs in the market just to attract more players is not desired !
The core idea of this game was to exactly make something completely different... The core idea was to bring a very dangerous world !
AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT LURED PEOPLE TO TRY THIS GAME !

Or have you forgotten the launching days ??? Thousands and thousands of people came to test the game... They all wanted something different from the other MMOs... They all wanted EXCITEMENT. No more ridiculous safe zones or pathetic pvp rules.

The only problem was that the devs didnt produce a decent server, capable of holding those many players online at the same time...
They lost several players due to server stability !

Dont you remember the first days ? The game was FANTASTIC !! There was much less guards in towns... We had action even inside towns... Those were the best rules...
I remember having to use my BRAIN to not lose a mount inside town (instead of having 546347229 NPC guards protecting my stuff nowadays)... I remember dieing inside Fabernum by PKs invading the city (inside city)... They were attacked by NPC guards, but the guards did not insta kill them...so it was possible to have those PK sieges.... We had to hide to survive... That game was amazing !

Please bring back february 2022 rules...

Anyway, I stay firm to my point :
GUARDS OUTSIDE TOWNS wont bring players to this game. Please leave them INSIDE towns only.

Everything else is ok... Make reds freely attackable, make their lives miserable without any red priests close, anything... but please DO NOT PUT GUARDS OUTSIDE TOWNS !