Reworking Survival: Creating a Gameplay Loop

[Nefnate]

Preface

Spoiler: Read for Context

I have read some interesting threads of late that talk about the lack of a proper, fun, game play loop.

In order to accomplish anything in game, you need access to a town and crafters. You need allies, connections, alts or a lot of gold. I do not want to change this. The game IMO does this fine, interaction and trade are vital. However, not everyone wants to or has the time to spend preparing so elaborately.

We also have the travel time. The world is massive and even on a mount it can take over an hour to reach the place you want to go. Often there is little to do during travel than scan for other players - and if you die, you lose everything including your time. I think we can agree we all enjoy the nature of this, but not always the execution. There is too much of a time sink to do anything.

I purpose a big expansion of the Survival Skill to address this.

The goal of the expansion is to add a game-play loop to the wild and exploration that doesn't break the game's mechanics or balance.

Reworking Survival
Currently, it's 100 points of investment so you can swim well. I suggest we add a bench-less, basic crafting system, to Survival, as well as relocate some already existing skills there too, for balance. Swimming itself should be moved to Athletics, but make it a Primary (because it was previously gated by Survival). Survival and the crafting menu to do with it would be accessible to every character from spawn, and increasing Survival increases the quality of gathering or crafting.

Survival (Primary / Parent)

• Skinning (Secondary) -- should be moved to Survival as a Secondary.
  • This removes the ability of all players being soft butchers and the over abundance and availability of Animal Materials. Of course, you could still skin without having Survival, but your yields should plummet to near nil.
• Gathering (Secondary / Parent) -- serves no purpose anymore. Mining and Woodcutting are both secondary.
  • I suggest buffing base yield without the skills, so everyone can still gather, but make it so players with Survival + Gathering leveled have bonus yield or increased luck for gems and ambers. The big change here is the introduction of Hand Gathering and three new basic materials.
    • Mining (Secondary) -- Governs gathering ore from stones.
    • Woodcutting (Secondary) -- Governs gathering wood from trees.
    • Hand Gathering (Secondary) -- Allows gathering from near rocks or trees by aiming at the ground near them, or on them directly, without a tool.
      • The player would gather 'stones' from near rocks, 'branches' from near trees, and 'fibre' from gathering flora.
      • The player could get the above items as a byproduct from gathering directly with a tool, as well.
      • Stone, Branches and Fibre would work directly with the Survival Crafting.
• Wilderness Crafting (Secondary) -- this would include a list of items that can be crafted in a different method than regular crafting.
  • Regular crafting lets you control the materials and where they go.
  • Wilderness Crafting would only accept Stone, Branches and Fibre as material, and give you a static, weak item.
    • This is shallow, but that is the point. It is a basic weapon or tool with a rough shaft and some stone bound to it.
    • The actual statistics would need to be fair, so that it feels rewarding to do this, but, weak enough that crafted goods at benches are always the better choice. If damage and or durability is too low, they will not be used, but they should not displace better creations.
  • Spoiler: Things Crafted by Wilderness

    • Minor Bandages:
      • Animal Skin + Fibres
    • Rudimentary *weapon* (sword, spear, axe, etc):
      • Branches + Stone + Fibres
    • Rudimentary Bow:
      • Branches + Fibres
    • Rudimentary *tool* (Pickaxe, Woodcutting Axe, Torch):
      • Branches + Stone + Fibres
    • Rudimentary Loincloth:
      • Animal Materials OR Fibres.
    • Rudimentary Saddle:
      • Animal Skin + Fibres
    • Rudimentary Saddlebags:
      • Rudimentary Saddle + Animal Skin + Fibres

    [*][*][*]

Conclusion

Spoiler: Read for Context

Separating Survival out as a skill that is actually about survival makes sense logically, and also enables a basic game play loop for minimal investment. I assert that more players would be willing to traverse the world if they knew it were more accessible. All players who take the time to prepare with higher quality equipment from a town or settlement would have the advantage over them with in terms of PvE and PvP, but they should still be allowed to exist and encouraged to have fun.

This also enables a playstyle that currently struggles. The tamer / scout character. Before you could go out naked, get a horse, and scout around or travel - nice! With this addition, they would be able to head out with nothing and come back with something (while adopting much more risk due to their gear quality). This excites many.

Overall, I think a rework of this nature would massively improve new player experience, and would make launch much more fun. Imagine the hordes and hordes of new players, instead of swarming town and spamming "how do i make a sword", "what material makes good armor", you will have them filling the wilds and all or nothing PvP happening at every corner of nearby landscapes. Those who wish to escape the madness could roam further and further away from town, and not be told by the game mechanics that they are no longer able to play due to needing crafting stations in a town to make a basic sword and pickaxe.

Please let me know what you think. I am including a poll so perhaps this gets some traction with Starvault. I know they peep around, and I do not think it is too late to make a system like this work before January. It is a more a rearranging of the skill tree than anything else, and a few additions to already existing systems.

Cheers all,
Nef.

 

[Piet]

The issue is this all can already be accomplished and already is in game with mining a rock chopping a tree and making tools or even easier you can take your starter sword and kill a single zombie or pick a flower and make enough silver for like 20 tools. I like games with gameplay like this don't get me wrong and they will make it so you can make campfires and such and can make it so you can craft at your house and such but it just doesn't fit in making hand made tools just for the sake of it.

 

[Nefnate]

The issue is this all can already be accomplished and already is in game with mining a rock chopping a tree and making tools or even easier you can take your starter sword and kill a single zombie or pick a flower and make enough silver for like 20 tools. I like games with gameplay like this don't get me wrong and they will make it so you can make campfires and such and can make it so you can craft at your house and such but it just doesn't fit in making hand made tools just for the sake of it.

You seem to completely ignore the main reason for my proposal - the time sink issue: preparation and travel time combined make the game extremely time intensive. This system is meant to address that, nothing else. No need for NPC. No need for banks. No need for benches. Log in, play, log out. More flexibility while on adventures. Deaths or partially lost fights don't feel as heavy. So on and so forth.

 

[Piet]

You seem to completely ignore the main reason for my proposal - the time sink issue: preparation and travel time combined make the game extremely time intensive. This system is meant to address that, nothing else. No need for NPC. No need for banks. No need for benches. Log in, play, log out. More flexibility while on adventures. Deaths or partially lost fights don't feel as heavy. So on and so forth.

so you can make crappy tools wherever or when housing is in you make crappy tools at your house at your own work bench. I get your idea I do. I just don't think it's really a big change and I don't think it really would fit or help. On top of that I actually think it would be detrimental because then there wouldn't be a place people tend to be near as much which is actually a good thing. It's good for trade, it's good for pvp, it's good for interaction. Like I said I get the idea I like the idea in other games it just is already kinda doable and doesn't really fit in the exact way you want.

 

[Rikart]

Honestly I'd like to see this happening before release, to test it out. I fear once the game releases they will be scared to touch the skill tree and move them around like it is suggested right here.
I hope this thread gets enough views to make something happen.

 

[Nefnate]

so you can make crappy tools wherever or when housing is in you make crappy tools at your house at your own work bench. I get your idea I do. I just don't think it's really a big change and I don't think it really would fit or help. On top of that I actually think it would be detrimental because then there wouldn't be a place people tend to be near as much which is actually a good thing. It's good for trade, it's good for pvp, it's good for interaction. Like I said I get the idea I like the idea in other games it just is already kinda doable and doesn't really fit in the exact way you want.

I agree with the SPIRIT, the VISION of these changes, but some of their stream-lined seconaries kind of weirded out the game, like cooking for instance being "ok" as secondary. Maybe you should get survival skills and get to pick a few from them. I don't think more secondaries are necessary because they already really streamlined the game. If you wanna have a specific non-bench crafting, then sure. But you still need a bank. They got crafting stuff at jungle camp etc.

Living in the wilderness is fun, but I dunno if SV really built their game to work with it, closest is red towns and the only diff is no guards. But there are a lot of spots to live out of that are not that bad, some even have a butcher table. If you got a butcher table + wep crafting stuff/equipment/util vendor... you're all set. Not just to make bone stuff, but you can move other stuff in.

I do especially disagree with 'before January', I'd like to see us approach MO1 state of 'world' then maybe we can focus on the people who don't wanna live in the civilized world. Your changes remind me of life is feudal. haha. I hate gathering mats to make gear out of in those games. SLINGSHOT YESS. But you could bodybag someone with a stone pick. I think I will always play MO as a survival game, but just change your mentality a little, I guess? That's a big core change to the game when it needs a lot of other stuff, and like Piet said, some of it can be addressed with the stuff that was already in there.

One of the main, most brought up, influential issues brought up by both Vet and New players alike is how big, dead, and pointless the map is. Takes too long, looks too empty, nothing to do, etc.

If you want to do literally ANYTHING in the world right now, without starting from a town and surviving with your gear, you can't. You are naked with a worn short sword? Nice job you can kill a walker or maybe a wolf and a bandit. Then you need to get all the way back to a town to make use of that loot. This suggestion addresses all of that. What good is a massive, beautiful world, if you literally will never have the means to explore or interact with it spontaneously?

If you think this idea is not good in the context of this game, I seriously suggest taking a step back and considering what we lose by implementing this, and what we gain. It could also be tweaked in whatever ways needed for SV to think it matches their 'vision' well enough. I challenge you both to suggest alternatives if you want to continue with the point that this system doesn't 'fit' here.

The alternative of 'using a starter sword' to grind basics silvers so you can use those basic silvers to buy a better basic thing so you can repeat until you get gear is literally an anti-point... that in itself is time consuming, requires a town and benches, and ultimately defeats the entire purpose of my suggestion.

 

[Highlander]

The survival skill as it is now seems to be missing something. I would add as a secondary of survival as well as our friend says to be able to build basic survival objects such as weapons, torches and bandages also a special taming only for non-aggressive animals, for example horses. the world is vast and for those who prefer to walk it often takes hours to find a village.
it would make the adventure more enjoyable for everyone. now it is too mechanical and redundant.
MacLeod

 

[Ragemeister]

100% agree that swimming alone should not take 100 points, especially if underwater content is being planned.
Might as well make walking take 100 points as well and make people decide if they want to play land or sea

 

[Tzone]

Maybe campfires can allow you to make up to a certain level of tool and gear.

Then a profession called survival crafting that needs a certain number of points from action survival to allow you to make certain things at camp fires like non metal tools and weapons but takes like a minute to make each thing. And then it would max out at level 70 possibly too.

 

[Piet]

One of the main, most brought up, influential issues brought up by both Vet and New players alike is how big, dead, and pointless the map is. Takes too long, looks too empty, nothing to do, etc.

If you want to do literally ANYTHING in the world right now, without starting from a town and surviving with your gear, you can't. You are naked with a worn short sword? Nice job you can kill a walker or maybe a wolf and a bandit. Then you need to get all the way back to a town to make use of that loot. This suggestion addresses all of that. What good is a massive, beautiful world, if you literally will never have the means to explore or interact with it spontaneously?

If you think this idea is not good in the context of this game, I seriously suggest taking a step back and considering what we lose by implementing this, and what we gain. It could also be tweaked in whatever ways needed for SV to think it matches their 'vision' well enough. I challenge you both to suggest alternatives if you want to continue with the point that this system doesn't 'fit' here.

The alternative of 'using a starter sword' to grind basics silvers so you can use those basic silvers to buy a better basic thing so you can repeat until you get gear is literally an anti-point... that in itself is time consuming, requires a town and benches, and ultimately defeats the entire purpose of my suggestion.

You're not using any forethought here. The map is big and dead because they are holding stuff back for launch and pop is low until launch, not to mention housing not being in. You think people shouldn't have to go to town you don't want to go to town but some games aren't like that, like this game they want you to go to town. They want to push you to group up with mechanics naturally. The game isn't designed how you want it, that doesn't mean it's designed poorly.

 

[Nefnate]

You're not using any forethought here. The map is big and dead because they are holding stuff back for launch and pop is low until launch, not to mention housing not being in. You think people shouldn't have to go to town you don't want to go to town but some games aren't like that, like this game they want you to go to town. They want to push you to group up with mechanics naturally. The game isn't designed how you want it, that doesn't mean it's designed poorly.

My suggestion does not detract from the game being designed around grouping and towns. Anyone who goes into the wild, needs to return. Anyone who wants to do PvE content harder than basic, still needs to go to town and group. Anyone who wants to do anything with efficiency, will need to go to town.

The game is not going to magically become wonderland at launch. Looking at MO1, it'll still be desolate, with more pockets of animals, and houses jutting out of the landscape (likely around hot spots). Even if it ISN'T desolate, and it IS packed, my point still stands that one should be able to enjoy exploring and gathering at a base level without needing a bastion of supplies and prep.

This is a basic, entry level, gameplay loop. 90% of players will still play exactly the same, and the 10% who utilize the wild a lot, will simply fuel the game with more interesting content - and that 90% who don't makea lot of use out of it still get the option to make some bandages on the fly or create a pick axe to test a material, etc. Seeing a naked leave town and come back with a leather tunic on while riding a donkey creates stories and fun.

It takes nothing away, and creates a window of play where none currently exists - one especially beneficial to new players. Spawning naked at a priest while lost out in the world now means literally nothing. You can look around, but that's pretty much it. It feels pointless. You need to get back to town before you can do anything. Zzzz.

 

[Nefnate]

100% agree that swimming alone should not take 100 points, especially if underwater content is being planned.
Might as well make walking take 100 points as well and make people decide if they want to play land or sea

Joking aside, it already does via Athletics -> Sprinting, though you can move without it. Same thing with swimming - not needed to swim, just a hell of a lot more reliable. Perhaps swimming itself should be secondary with Crawling or Diving being primary.

Either way, this post and the scope are looking at a lot more than the redundant placement of parent skills. What do you think of the rest of the post?

 

[Piet]

I am more just saying it's not really a priority at best and all of that can be done already you're just doing it a slightly different way that means less time near town.

 

[Tzone]

I am more just saying it's not really a priority at best and all of that can be done already you're just doing it a slightly different way that means less time near town.

A lot of people like the survivalist gameplay style. Its content for a lot of people and makes the game more interesting in the mid game.

 

[Valoran]

Preface
I have read some interesting threads of late that talk about the lack of a proper, fun, game play loop.

I appreciate the effort you put into this, and I wish more posts were as digestible, civil and well thought out as this one.

In regard to the content however I do have some opinions.

My first thoughts as you describe the hand-gather-able materials were:
"What kind of stone? Branches from what kind of tree? Not all plants are fibrous or would be useful for tying knots."

The generic names do not fit the level of depth we have come to expect in the game, and so however easily fixable by simply adding regional "loose resources", it was still jarring to read.

Secondly about the skill layout changes I find skinning being under extraction and butchery to be more logical and appropriate, and gating any kind of effective gathering behind a multipurpose skill seems counter productive to the goal of making players able to do and achieve more while out in the wild on their own. I agree with the swimming change however, I've been suggesting that one myself for a while.


As for the main sentiment of your post though, I agree that the ability to spawn somewhere completely naked with nothing, and then be able to craft things for yourself and do something, anything, other than go to town or meet up with some friends to steal their gear is a good addition to the game. The specific execution could use some expanding on to be appropriate for the game, but the core desire to not feel essentially static when outside of a town is an appealing one.

People often overlook how fun it can be just knocking around early game as a weakling with no good equipment in the middle of nowhere having squabbles with strangers you run into. The potential for new players or anyone for that matter to have fun engaging with other players out in the wild without needing to come from a town is not insignificant and should be encouraged.


Ultimately I believe it comes down to options, and more is usually better.

 

[Nefnate]

I appreciate the effort you put into this, and I wish more posts were as digestible, civil and well thought out as this one.

In regard to the content however I do have some opinions.

My first thoughts as you describe the hand-gather-able materials were:
"What kind of stone? Branches from what kind of tree? Not all plants are fibrous or would be useful for tying knots."

The generic names do not fit the level of depth we have come to expect in the game, and so however easily fixable by simply adding regional "loose resources", it was still jarring to read.

Secondly about the skill layout changes I find skinning being under extraction and butchery to be more logical and appropriate, and gating any kind of effective gathering behind a multipurpose skill seems counter productive to the goal of making players able to do and achieve more while out in the wild on their own. I agree with the swimming change however, I've been suggesting that one myself for a while.


As for the main sentiment of your post though, I agree that the ability to spawn somewhere completely naked with nothing, and then be able to craft things for yourself and do something, anything, other than go to town or meet up with some friends to steal their gear is a good addition to the game. The specific execution could use some expanding on to be appropriate for the game, but the core desire to not feel essentially static when outside of a town is an appealing one.

People often overlook how fun it can be just knocking around early game as a weakling with no good equipment in the middle of nowhere having squabbles with strangers you run into. The potential for new players or anyone for that matter to have fun engaging with other players out in the wild without needing to come from a town is not insignificant and should be encouraged.


Ultimately I believe it comes down to options, and more is usually better.

Thank you!

Yes, I had the same issues when writing it - regarding the ambiguity and lack of depth around the materials. I thought about '---- rubble' for rocks, with the ore name being where the dashes are, and many others. I decided it was too picky of a thing to focus energy on, when I had already captured the sentiment. I ended up mentioning in a reply that SV has room to alter this ofc to their vision - which involves making sure it feels canonical and not silly. So I completely agree - the naming convention here needs to be looked at. So do the details of the mechanics. When I suggest something, I am more suggesting a concept than anything else, I know the entire game and everything that encompasses it need to be considered.

I hear you about the skinning. I wasn't sure. The idea was that Survival becomes this big 'preview' essentially of the game. You can craft, gather, skin, all on the fly, inspiring more spontaneity and sparking interest in more in-depth professions that expand on one of the aspects. I simutaneously think that skinning is too accessible and everyone being able to grab a handful of pigs and be geared is not ideal. I tried to hit 2 birds with that one.

 

[Piet]

A lot of people like the survivalist gameplay style. Its content for a lot of people and makes the game more interesting in the mid game.

He's talking about start of game instead of mid. I like it too but what he described is already doable just not without a town or soon house and it would take a whole different system which would take a lot of work to make which is def not a priority right now and in my opinion isn't worth the work to make the system just usable out of town.

 

[Tzone]

He's talking about start of game instead of mid. I like it too but what he described is already doable just not without a town or soon house and it would take a whole different system which would take a lot of work to make which is def not a priority right now and in my opinion isn't worth the work to make the system just usable out of town.

If you leave haven and are out in the wild thats pretty much the start of the mid game. People want this type of stuff, its fun content for people to be the live off the land nomadic hunter gatherer. Or the survivalist backwoods type of person.

There's entire games built off of survival content along. Its a good idea to have it and its provides convenience.

 

[Nefnate]

He's talking about start of game instead of mid. I like it too but what he described is already doable just not without a town or soon house and it would take a whole different system which would take a lot of work to make which is def not a priority right now and in my opinion isn't worth the work to make the system just usable out of town.

It doesn't require that much work to develop, it is basically already in the game. I didnt say it was FOR early game, I said it was especially good for new players but would help everyone, and did not touch on longevity because I thought it was implied. This change would impact all stages of the game. You're kidding if you think just because you have a stack of metal and some gold in the bank that the middle of the map is more accessible to you if you have died.

If you are going to paraphrase, at least know the content.

 

[Piet]

It doesn't require that much work to develop, it is basically already in the game. I didnt say it was FOR early game, I said it was especially good for new players but would help everyone, and did not touch on longevity because I thought it was implied. This change would impact all stages of the game. You're kidding if you think just because you have a stack of metal and some gold in the bank that the middle of the map is more accessible to you if you have died.

If you are going to paraphrase, at least know the content.

What are you talking about even?