Razorbacks and wolves.

Rorry

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May 30, 2020
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Razorbacks need to have their speed and aggro range turned down slightly, my full speed character can't outrun them which might be ok, but they also never quit chasing even if I haven't damaged them.
Wolves aren't as bad because they seem a little slower, but they also keep following forever so the only thing I can do is run all the way back to town for guard peals.
No doubt for a geared and prepared player they won't be much of an issue, but for the few days/weeks before new players are it will keep them from being able to progress.
 

bbihah

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Jul 10, 2020
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All NPCs need to deaggro at some point, since they dont.


If im out and about just travelling from Town A to B means im dragging all the aggressive mobs in between the towns back to town with me.

And im on a fast veela character.
 

a.out

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May 28, 2020
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Not only can you not outrun them, you can also not outride them on a Steppe full speed. PvE for animals seems like a placeholder.
 
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Eldrath

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Jun 18, 2020
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the Jungle. Meditating on things to come.
Animals do loose aggro if you get enough distance.

The attack animations looks weird and they seem to attack a place slightly to your right.

Also I think a grown ass wolf should not die to my naked sheevra self with 20 sword skill and 130 hp.
 

bbihah

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Jul 10, 2020
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The problem is, animals have super long aggro range, they just reaggro the second they lose aggro.

Bears are fast and they will chase you forever until you die, even my veela with the reduced aggro range can't get away from them far or fast enough to get them to deaggro and then not immediately reaggro.

Add on the fact that animals attack super fast so you cant really block them effectively. it becomes a dps vs dps swing fest.
 

Kaemik

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Nov 28, 2020
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We're saying animals are too fast and too strong?

tenor.gif


*Thinks about what that means as a dom/mage*

tenor.gif
 

Illuana

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Jun 1, 2020
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[/QUOTE]*Thinks about what that means as a dom/mage*

It means you won't be able to dom/tame any aggro beasties cause they'll kill you before the tame is completed... Also, don't make it so that you have to look at and hold button the whole time you need to tame/dom. Its nearly impossible to do that while running for your life.
 

bbihah

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Luckily there is another mechanic that makes it so you can't easily solo tame anything dangerous anyway.
 

Kaemik

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It means you won't be able to dom/tame any aggro beasties cause they'll kill you before the tame is completed... Also, don't make it so that you have to look at and hold button the whole time you need to tame/dom. Its nearly impossible to do that while running for your life.

tenor.gif
 

a.out

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May 28, 2020
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*Thinks about what that means as a dom/mage*

It means you won't be able to dom/tame any aggro beasties cause they'll kill you before the tame is completed... Also, don't make it so that you have to look at and hold button the whole time you need to tame/dom. Its nearly impossible to do that while running for your life.
It also means that you win the game as soon as you have tamed an unblockable animal. Looking forward to spam ppl to death by cheesy bot attacks. They did such a good job with bandits/guards - of course there is tweaking needed - but with animals they went right back to where they started. It feels even worse than in MO1.
 

Kaemik

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One of the reasons humans evolved to walk on two legs is while it tends to be slower over short distances, it consumes less energy when moving over long distances. We think of ourselves as slow compared to other creatures (and we are over very short distances) but humans are actually champion endurance runners, with our early ancestor being able to cover a huge amount of ground per day and often killing things in our hunter-gatherer days by just tracking them until exhaustion overtook them.

This is all to be said. Give animals less stamina. A bear should move faster than a human. But not over a long distance.
 

bbihah

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Well, haven't found an animal that you cant block yet, but they attack so fast you have to just block and do nothing else pretty much if you want to avoid taking damage. And then again, you cant get away from them.... At least player controlled animals you can get away from due to the limited range away from the owner where the pet can attack you. But NPCs are in a pretty good spot combat wise, they just need an overhaul on aggro that works. I'll be making a suggestion later that will fix it and also make combat in groups work better.
 

a.out

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May 28, 2020
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One of the reasons humans evolved to walk on two legs is while it tends to be slower over short distances, it consumes less energy when moving over long distances. We think of ourselves as slow compared to other creatures (and we are over very short distances) but humans are actually champion endurance runners, with our early ancestor being able to cover a huge amount of ground per day and often killing things in our hunter-gatherer days by just tracking them until exhaustion overtook them.

This is all to be said. Give animals less stamina. A bear should move faster than a human. But not over a long distance.
I don't think they have stamina at all. It seems a rather simplistic script of seek&destroy. Although I notice some rudimentary beginnings of behavioral patterns with the wolfes. They disengage every once a while, but are quick to resume their rage.
 

Kaemik

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Nov 28, 2020
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Ah that's the solution then. NPCs need stam and they should in most cases have far less of it than players.
 

Neftan

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May 28, 2020
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Animals should also just be more intuitive. A boar is not going to hunt you across the map, neither will a wolf. They should make noises and get angry when you get too close, warning you to leave. They should attack if you get closer or stay near, or if you shoot/damage one. They should only chase you for long distances if you have openly damaged them, and even then to a limit. If they aggro on you from you getting too close, they should just "chase you off" and return to their spawn.
 

Kaemik

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I really like the idea of a lack of spawn leashes on many mobs TBH. But I can understand a lose interest timer on some animals. I think really great aggro-drop AI should be a future goal though. For now, simply giving them stam and having it run out after awhile would solve the current problem for anything but really fast mobs chasing really slow builds.
 

bbihah

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Jul 10, 2020
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A suggestion I have is they implement threat, on top of fixing npcs able to reaggro too easily once the aggro/threat is gone. Since its the reaggro that is the primary issue here, but i think both group play and the npc experience in general could be improved by having a flexible and "complex" threat system underlying it.


Suggestion:
When you initially aggro an npc it'll keep aggro on you as long as you have threat against it and it gets a set initial threat value when aggroing on you depending on factors such as range, your size, armor worn(like in the good ole days when they tested animal aggressiveness vs a players threat "level" some might remember, it would be nice for it to return in some sense) and a base value based on the npc. This could go multiple ways. Bandits might be more willing to come after you if you are looking juicy(to a certain point, before they are unwilling to maybe even attack you at all) while some animals like wolves might be discouraged from attacking you if you wear armor and something like a torch.

Threat increases when you deal damage to the npc, to a capped point. random example number of max threat from damage could be 100 and decreases towards the capped point if its above the capped number and does not decay as long as you are in proximity of the npc and not moving away from it and the npc does not have to move. NPC and player moving decreases threat, player increasing the distance between the npc and the player decreases threat.

This handles it for how pulling or getting aggro on npcs would be handled in the scenario of running away when accidentally running into a npc. The reason why damaging when above the cap reduces the threat is that straight out running away from a aggressive npc is the safest option initially, but attacking a npc that has high threat. Say a bear aggros you. It could start at say 150 threat on you, meaning you'll have to run X distance to deaggro, but fighting back against it will reduce the threat. So you could give it a bit of a fight before running to discourage it chasing you. Is pretty much the idea. This could work vastly different between mobs and adds a "meta" or knowledge of animals and monsters that is practical knowledge that players will get through experience and testing.


DISCLAIMER:
This has barely anything to do with fixing the issue of npcs being a bit fast, some being able to hit you while coming at you too easily and making it impossible to get away due to them reaggroing even if you manage to get a distance away and them eventually catching up due to players having limited stamina. It does add the basis on a underlying aggro system which plays much better into how threat is handled in a scenario where multiple people are attacking a mob. As the threat mechanic will be there and the mob then keyword:Mainly attacking the one with highest threat.


How "threat" in a group vs mob scenario works now:
How aggro works right now in a group scenario is either bugged or extremely lackluster. Right now, a mob will always attack the last unique(non aggroed) player that hits a mob. Example; I hit a razorback, razorback will be attacking me. player B attacks razorback ONCE, razorback is now attacking player B. I keep hitting the razorback and player B is not while trying to run away but the razorback keeps attacking player B until I completely deaggro from the razorback and then attack it, now the razorback will attack me until player B deaggros and attacks the razorback. If there is a 3rd player C in this. This goes the same. All three players attacking the razorback, whoever attacked it last has aggro until any one player deaggros and then attacks the razorback.
 

bbihah

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Jul 10, 2020
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Well, haven't found an animal that you cant block yet,
Razorbacks are unblockable and super fast, simply no way to kill 1v1 even in decent armor since you cant outdps them. Thats kind of.... sad since it relegates you to try and bug them out to be able to kill them.

Think PVE needs a massive pass/overhaul. The wonkiness around "nodelines". Invisible npcs hitting you etc is making it a very unenjoyable experience.
 
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cwall

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Dec 28, 2020
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Hunter Lizards are scarier than both wolves and razorbacks for the same buggy reasons.