Ranged Combat Rework

[Deleted member 44]

To assist in the skilless nature of the current archery meta I suggest some changes. Rework the archer skill to scale damage from 0-100% relative the archery skill level. This will require actual investment into the skill over the current meta of only using Ranged Combat which is a free skill. I would recommend removing ranged combat entirely, but with crossbows coming it would still have a place in the future. In addition to the archery skill change, I recommend adding a secondary free skill under archery called Long Bow Expertise. It would require 100 points to be invested into the archery primary skill to be unlocked and it would scale damage of long bows from 50-100%. Another key change that needs to be made to bows is that the cost to make bows needs to be drastically increased. No other weapon can deal so much damage with such little investment in resources.

 

[Eventide]

Agreed that the cost of bows needs to drastically go up. Currently you can buy like the best bows in the game for like 1g and they're flooding the market. The recent changes to archery to add in the sway helped a lot in changing things up and destroying some of that meta. I do agree though that archery needs to be something you really skill into before it's really good. One of the issues is bow damage is scaled off strength.. which doesn't really make sense. Realistically there should be a strength requirement to draw the bow, but you need dexterity to aim it and be good enough to actually use it.

I do feel like there should be a short bow and long bow expertise skill as a primary. Just like melee you should have to pick which one you want to use or skill into both if you want. Archery secondary (that does nothing really like melee) then the expertise under it. Then also have an aiming secondary (decreases the sway) with the other aiming skills under that. On top of this have ranged damage scale off of dex. This way not every melee user is also an archer. Not every archer is also a melee. There needs to be a separation between them. Also have heavier armor affect your aiming and stamina usage more because someone in full metal armor shouldn't be dexterous enough to even use a bow.

 

[Emdash]

The recent changes to archery to add in the sway helped a lot in changing things up and destroying some of that meta.

re: bows, bow crafting is pretty doggy. It seems like crep, dense crep or incis + litewood. I tried for awhile w/ decurves for luls but na. I don't necessarily want more expensive/rare mats to be required, but just some more variety.

I think this should be done as well (increasing point cost,) because I am sick of 'tribrid' or w/e builds. I know, no classes, and I have builds that are def spread thin, but I take my Ls in certain areas. I'd love to see build diversity.

I think it's fair, given the nature of skills and how they changed a lot of stuff, to expect people to have to hard spec something to be able to use a long bow to defend as a FF. But I could see why that would be seen as bias. Honestly, you should be able to drive someone off with a shorty if you are decent. It's just w/ a long bow it's a much larger deterrent. W/ a short bow you might actually get someone's mount cuz they might get in the mindset that they don't have to run.

And p sure people are using long bows enzerge to farm bosses and such, that's not really kosher, either.

But yea other than deciding to spec 60/60 on control aiming (was gonna do 50 but since I'm already at 60 and it's comfy ) my build is OK. I already had AT tho, was going for marks. So, it might change slightly, but I dono. I really felt even by looking at the patch numbers that the wobble was gonna be almost completely removed by full spec, and I dunno if I like that, either. 6060 is pretty steady. If you wanna slow to 2nd, alternate 2nd n 3rd, you can prol get away w/ 0. I like to know I can do the things I usually do, tho, and I think where I am at allows that.

 

[Eventide]

re: bows, bow crafting is pretty doggy. It seems like crep, dense crep or incis + litewood. I tried for awhile w/ decurves for luls but na. I don't necessarily want more expensive/rare mats to be required, but just some more variety.

The issue is how easy it is to create a bow that does the same damage as a top tier melee weapon that costs much more. The cost of bows needs to drastically increase to stop people from just always having a bow on them.

I think this should be done as well (increasing point cost,) because I am sick of 'tribrid' or w/e builds. I know, no classes, and I have builds that are def spread thin, but I take my Ls in certain areas. I'd love to see build diversity.

Every playstyle should be able to be played at basic levels. Like yes you should be able to be a hybrid but you shouldn't then be able to be like a master of all. Increasing archery skill point cost and also making it dex-based for damage (but still needing strength for the bow itself though reduced from current) would make the most sense. This gives archery its own scaling and makes it so everyone can't be an archer. You could still be a hybrid if you spread points right so it's not taking that away from the game it's just making it a bit harder to be a jack-of-all-trades.

But yea other than deciding to spec 60/60 on control aiming (was gonna do 50 but since I'm already at 60 and it's comfy ) my build is OK. I already had AT tho, was going for marks. So, it might change slightly, but I dono. I really felt even by looking at the patch numbers that the wobble was gonna be almost completely removed by full spec, and I dunno if I like that, either. 6060 is pretty steady. If you wanna slow to 2nd, alternate 2nd n 3rd, you can prol get away w/ 0. I like to know I can do the things I usually do, tho, and I think where I am at allows that.

Luckily the implementation of the sway is just starting and they mentioned changing it later. I do agree that being able to reduce it by 95% is a bit unrealistic and too easy. I like that basic archery reduces it by only 30% and the controlled aiming by up to 60% though. I feel like the more you spec into controlled aiming the more stamina you should use to hold the bow though? Simulating you holding your breath - you can only do it for so long. So you have a trade off to balance and instead of just seeing what level until it's a comfortable sway now you're seeing that and if it's a comfortable stamina drain. I don't know there's a lot they need to balance honestly. Currently I feel like the game is in a state where it needs people bouncing ideas around, even bad ones, and refining those ideas to actually create something.

Also people really need to remember that all combat styles should have pros AND cons. Currently, even with the sway update, archery is pretty much all pros. Cheap weapons, cheap arrows, fairly easy to learn, low point investment, etc.

 

[Deleted member 44]

I do not want more sway. It is already too excessive.

 

[Eventide]

I do not want more sway. It is already too excessive.

Nobody said anything about more sway. We said it shouldn't be able to be minimized as much as you can currently. If you think it's too excessive right now you haven't specced into being an archer. Archery reduces the sway by 30% and is secondary. Controlled aiming then reduces it by a further 60% capping at 95% reduction in sway. The thing is you can adjust your skill point investment based on your personal skill. If it's too much for you then max it out and lower the controlled aiming slightly over time.

 

[FreeHorses]

make it so you have to aim with the arrow tip again, no more cross hair.

 

[Deleted member 44]

Nobody said anything about more sway. We said it shouldn't be able to be minimized as much as you can currently. If you think it's too excessive right now you haven't specced into being an archer. Archery reduces the sway by 30% and is secondary. Controlled aiming then reduces it by a further 60% capping at 95% reduction in sway. The thing is you can adjust your skill point investment based on your personal skill. If it's too much for you then max it out and lower the controlled aiming slightly over time.

I have specced into it. On my main I have 60 and an alt I have it at 100. I would like to see the upper cap to be 100% reduction. It's a 200 point investment, might as well make it truly worth it.

 

[Eventide]

I have specced into it. On my main I have 60 and an alt I have it at 100. I would like to see the upper cap to be 100% reduction. It's a 200 point investment, might as well make it truly worth it.

200 points?? OH NO HOW DARE THEY! Seriously, you just want it to be the overpowered mess it was before. Now it has a little bit of realistic sway and you cry about it. 100% reduction would make it too powerful of a skill and unrealistic. Archery needs a heavier skill investment and to not be so perfect of a combat style.

 

[Deleted member 44]

200 points?? OH NO HOW DARE THEY! Seriously, you just want it to be the overpowered mess it was before. Now it has a little bit of realistic sway and you cry about it. 100% reduction would make it too powerful of a skill and unrealistic. Archery needs a heavier skill investment and to not be so perfect of a combat style.

Overpowered mess? Nothing about MA is over powered or ever has been over powered. You have no idea how the game actually works.

 

[Hodo]

make it so you have to aim with the arrow tip again, no more cross hair.

END OF THREAD!

 

[Eventide]

Overpowered mess? Nothing about MA is over powered or ever has been over powered. You have no idea how the game actually works.

It's always hilarious when people try to end conversations with that whole "you have no idea how the game actually works" bit. If MA isn't so overpowered, why is everyone running it? Why is everyone capable of running it? Even a mage could pick up archery because the investment is so small. Previously an Alvarin mage could pick up 2 clades to reduce the strength requirement by 20 and then only need like 58 str to use a decently powerful short bow that can do more DPS than magic can currently.. while those clades and requirements haven't changed, the change to archery needing a bit more of a skill point investment means it's not as easy to do.

You're just angry that archery isn't the overpowered mess that it was before and now you want to argue against it but you can't come up with any good points so you try to add in random gates you created. So instead of arguing against points or giving good points yourself you say things like "You have no idea how the game actually works." I have no doubt you'd try to reply back to this asking how many hours I have in it or quoting how many hours you have.

 

[Deleted member 44]

It's always hilarious when people try to end conversations with that whole "you have no idea how the game actually works" bit. If MA isn't so overpowered, why is everyone running it? Why is everyone capable of running it? Even a mage could pick up archery because the investment is so small. Previously an Alvarin mage could pick up 2 clades to reduce the strength requirement by 20 and then only need like 58 str to use a decently powerful short bow that can do more DPS than magic can currently.. while those clades and requirements haven't changed, the change to archery needing a bit more of a skill point investment means it's not as easy to do.

You're just angry that archery isn't the overpowered mess that it was before and now you want to argue against it but you can't come up with any good points so you try to add in random gates you created. So instead of arguing against points or giving good points yourself you say things like "You have no idea how the game actually works." I have no doubt you'd try to reply back to this asking how many hours I have in it or quoting how many hours you have.

Again, it's not over powered and never has been. Not everyone is using it. Please explain to me how doing 5 damage to a fighter in steel is over powered. Explain to me how taking 50+ damage to your horse from a single long bow arrows is weaker. MA in geared combat is a joke that is only there to kill horses, which quite honestly who gives a F. Real battles are won on the ground. This is the reason you don't know what you're talking about. You're just some random trash bob that got killed by a MA on your naked mage and think it's the strongest thing in the game.

 

[Emdash]

make it so you have to aim with the arrow tip again, no more cross hair.

totally agree, been spamming this, good look. Means more coming from someone who people remember haha.

Altho to be fair I think the sway affects arrow tip aimers less because we (or I) don't really 'aim' like a cross hair aimer does. But the cross hair is so wack, arrow tip was a very immersive feature, and, once more since I'm already posting: I talked about disliking certain 'grips' and such... the arrow tip shot and the crosshair shot actually come out of a different spot. The crosshair shot is NOT PHYSICS. It's disgusting, speaking of nausea inducing features. We aren't firing guns w/ scopes here.

I mean, when I was a nub, and when I used help chat... everyone was like HOW I MAKE SHOT WITH BOW? And then they say "you have to aim with the tip" and it's like dafaq, then you practice it and it's actually really cool.

It was one of the most unique features in MO. I can't believe they let someone suggest it out. I'm def glad it's still in, and it doesn't make THAT much of a difference, but it makes it more about feeling than just dragging a circle to the right spot. It's so great to watch the arrow fly correctly and tag someone. Watching vids of people w/ the cross hair it's just like... plunk... (you hit for dmg) plunk (you hit for dmg)... but it never SEEMS LIKE THEY ARE SHOOTING A BOW.

DO IT DO IT DO IT. But, it's not gonna happen lawl. Just like they prol aren't gonna revert magic reflect or the mounted mage changes. -sadface-

 

[Eventide]

Again, it's not over powered and never has been. Not everyone is using it. Please explain to me how doing 5 damage to a fighter in steel is over powered. Explain to me how taking 50+ damage to your horse from a single long bow arrows is weaker. MA in geared combat is a joke that is only there to kill horses, which quite honestly who gives a F. Real battles are won on the ground. This is the reason you don't know what you're talking about. You're just some random trash bob that got killed by a MA on your naked mage and think it's the strongest thing in the game.

Doing 5 damage to someone wearing steel when you're shooting them with a bow makes perfect sense. You're trying to use a perfect case scenario to prove a point but it did nothing for you. That's one example where obviously you should be doing low damage. You then try to only insult me and again provide another gate you made up to try and discredit me. It's hilarious how horrible you are at a discussion.

As for everyone using it, literally EVERYONE had archery to some degree. So many people have been complaining about how easy it is for archers to kill people. If anything it's you that obviously hasn't played the game or bothered to look at anything other than your own point of view. Most of the people here are disagreeing with you. Other threads even disagree with you. If you can't handle that then don't post your opinion publicly where you're literally asking people to respond.

 

[Deleted member 44]

Doing 5 damage to someone wearing steel when you're shooting them with a bow makes perfect sense. You're trying to use a perfect case scenario to prove a point but it did nothing for you. That's one example where obviously you should be doing low damage. You then try to only insult me and again provide another gate you made up to try and discredit me. It's hilarious how horrible you are at a discussion.

As for everyone using it, literally EVERYONE had archery to some degree. So many people have been complaining about how easy it is for archers to kill people. If anything it's you that obviously hasn't played the game or bothered to look at anything other than your own point of view. Most of the people here are disagreeing with you. Other threads even disagree with you. If you can't handle that then don't post your opinion publicly where you're literally asking people to respond.

This is not a perfect case example. This is how the game is played at a high level. Steel armor at minimum. You know what happens when you go to Cronite and Oghmium? Zero damage. Of course I know you don't know that because you're to busy playing the game naked. I have played literally every build in the game. Don't talk to me about perspective, and quite honestly I don't care about what other opinions are, I'm right and I know it.

Lastly, stop high jacking my thread.

 

[Fearce]

We all have to face the truth that melees are the favored spec in this game. A melee is still the jack of all trades. They can outrun every other build in full oghmium armor because strength scaling is much better than dex scaling when it comes to stamina not to mention that overall movementspeed difference is hilarious. Armor does not slow you down, doesen't matter how much kg you have to carry around. Its hilarious to watch an oghmir in full steel with a door in one hand and a big hammer in the other with close to 400 stamina sprinting over the battlefield. They can drink 30 potion units, crackpipe in between, eating blood kua after crackpiping which fills up health reserves and heal you up again. These tanks have 215 hp and because of all the self healing 2-3 lifes while a mage can not even kill ONE full hp bar with its manareserves. Even if that would be possible they need to stand still to actually cast the spell and in that time the oghmir can even catch up on a Sheevra dex mage. I won't even start speaking about archers or mounted archers doing 5-10 damage on them every hit. You have to come up and play weird hybrid specs to actually be able to do anything in pvp: Mages with Towershields and Dagger (HAHAHAHA), Mounted Archers with Ecumenical spells and also Towershields; Starvault thought that making shields use armorweight will make them unattractive to mages (HAHAHA). It is not about tower shields and hybrid specs. People like to play pure healers, mages, archers and all this stuff. What kind of a sandbox is this where you are getting forced to play a hybrid spec to be actually feel usefull??

The game right now has zero balance. It might be that the devs do not care about it or they do not want balance and it is more of a rock/paper/scissor model BUT if you can not balance the classes a little bit more or put them a tiny bit closer to each other and give mages and archers a way to win against melees, a lot of people will quit the game because we simply DO NOT WANT TO PLAY MELEE but we also want to have fun in pvp and not want to feel useless. I'm sure you will understand this @Starvault!

 

[Eventide]

This is not a perfect case example. This is how the game is played at a high level. Steel armor at minimum. You know what happens when you go to Cronite and Oghmium? Zero damage. Of course I know you don't know that because you're to busy playing the game naked. I have played literally every build in the game. Don't talk to me about perspective, and quite honestly I don't care about what other opinions are, I'm right and I know it.

Lastly, stop high jacking my thread.

Someone disagreeing with you is not hijacking your thread. You're giving one example where obviously archers shouldn't win. Archers shouldn't be able to shoot through someone with steel armor. The issue is that armor needs to have cons to it. As stated by many other people, and Fearce just before this, armor not slowing you down, not increasing stamina drain, etc is the problem. Archery is definitely not a problem it's great as it is especially with the new sway. The issue now is melee needs brought down a few pegs.

As stated by Fearce as well, there needs to be more pure build viability since it currently doesn't exist.

Also, if you look back at the start I actually agreed with you but gave a few points of feedback. It's after that you misunderstood and thought someone mentioned having more sway, which nobody ever did. You then wanted it to be back to 100% accuracy which just isn't realistic and shouldn't happen regardless. From there you just devolved into acting like a spoiled brat.

 

[Emdash]

realism says that but not balance. i like the new mechanics. id love to spec full archer without a melee wep. how gimped would that be. worse than mage if not for mounts. if i can hit someone on my lean veela w a flake gb for 10-12 dmg, id like to see being able to hit people in armor for dmg too. and thats w a shorty. asym would be like 20. and arrows should eat mages and mid wt armor. if you calc out what dmg arrows are doing as a melee wep itd be like 20 pierce. thats a bit low for a play style. foot archer is the only play style that has never been viable. people say i came in cuz magic well you hear kids like i wanna be an archer and its like better get a mount bud. youd have to be able to do some wild stuff w desync and prol weak spot at
least 20/25% of the time, not just head shot but actually trigger a ws to be at all viable. but yes, many horses have been laid to rest.