PvP system - needs reworking.

[Leprechaun]

There seems to be flaws with this system, that favors the zerg situation.

What's the Point of having Lawless towns when a PKer can just farm rep to go to any town ?

The game has Guild war system that allows guilds to declare a War etc for said PvP.
When faction system comes in, again will allow for another style of PvP

What I don't understand is the Idea behind the No RED situation for a PKer.

You get a Murder count after each kill which has a RL time of 8 hours, but can be countered with Just a few rep runs so still allowing you into towns, Most PKs only engage when they guarantee a Win situation, basically outnumbering there foe. I'm 100% sure Many wouldn't join in a zerg Kill if there was a risk they was going to go Red due to kill count and have to wait for them hours to count down before they could go near a Guarded city again.

Most zerging PKs again do the rep run as a Grp so they never at risk and continue to kill between each city run. -- There are a few solo/duo PKers out there, that do fight honorably and those guys I salute


Considering this is very much compared to a Modern day UO, and have indeed very similar traits which make the game fun and enjoyable, the game is still catering to the Group play, and basically it comes down to who has the bigger numbers, and is that risk worth the engage.


UO had a Superb PK system, again 5 kills = Red - 8 hour timer per kill. - Lawless town for PKs to stash and go to if needed.
Had a guild war system.
had a Faction system (Order v Chaos)

This meant that only true PKs ever existed on the game, people who enjoyed the larger fight could do the Guild war / faction wars or even both.

There is nothing more frustrating that being PKed several times by a guild that only attempt it when they outnumber you, just to see them hanging out at the Bank later that day like nothing happened.

Disabling the going red at 5 counts is a silly system, claiming only city guards would know who a murderer was is Daft).

 

[Dracu]

oh shit yeah faction system xD Henrik talked about that too.... almost forgot between all the other awesome features that are obviously coming next month

 

[Tzone]

What I don't understand is the Idea behind the No RED situation for a PKer.

Because a lot of the time a greifer will purposely start fights and lose to cause a normal non PvP type player to go red which ends up making them quit the game.

Its more to protect people from greifers which most are perma blues.

Outside of that most people will end up with at least 5 MCs. Maybe some one was stealing your loot, you killed them once rightfully and they just kept coming back to give you MCs from the close blue spawns at every dungeon. Or people start chasing or surrounding you to jump you and so need to take out the one of them first so make it a more winnable fight.

For the argument that only city guards would know who the reds are thats not true, you know who the reds are through your own personal real life memory. Why should the display the names of player in red if they have 5 MCs. Guards dont even care if you have MCs they care about the players reputation. Priest care about MCs.

 

[Myta]

I have played UO for years. Never did I recieve a murdercount, unless it was on my purposefully red chars.

I cannot see a good reason why that should be different here, and I also never recieved a murdercount here. Leprechaun is right, the UO system was great and worked very well, it would be a significant improvement to what we have here.

I really dont see why the current murdercount system is in any way a good solution in your examples. If you want a protection for loot stealing make it so that the bag drops first for the one who did the most damage. Or make it criminal to take loot unless you did most damage (blue bag), then you can kill lootstealer without taking counts, easy fix. If people start chasing and surrounding you, attacking someone first is not going to help at all. Either they did not attack because they did not want to go criminal, then you attacking fist is going to help them kill you, or they dont care, in which case you cant go first anyway because they will attack you as soon as they can..

 

[Leprechaun]

Because a lot of the time a greifer will purposely start fights and lose to cause a normal non PvP type player to go red which ends up making them quit the game.

Its more to protect people from greifers which most are perma blues.

Outside of that most people will end up with at least 5 MCs. Maybe some one was stealing your loot, you killed them once rightfully and they just kept coming back to give you MCs from the close blue spawns at every dungeon. Or people start chasing or surrounding you to jump you and so need to take out the one of them first so make it a more winnable fight.

For the argument that only city guards would know who the reds are thats not true, you know who the reds are through your own personal real life memory. Why should the display the names of player in red if they have 5 MCs. Guards dont even care if you have MCs they care about the players reputation. Priest care about MCs.

How does it protect the people from griefers, when its currently abused by gankers ? I myself play with a small group of friends, all of which love the game, even my wife is currently playing (her 1st MMO), but when you have the likes of some guilds like "Skif" as an example that kill on sight for the fun of it, how is that protecting players from griefers ?

Yes a genuine PKer, would be something to fear, and would be expected, even a guild that chooses to be a PK guild again as an example "Skif" then that's fine. There around to PK, but to have that Same player or Same guild sitting around the same town as you, running Rep missions to stay in that town and to kill you the second you leave the gates, That my friend is not protecting players from Griefers, if anything its Making it easy for PKers to Grief your average player.

I'm not saying punish PKers like UO did with if you ressed while red your took a stat loss, I'm saying that Pkers should be known and stand out more, and not be able to freely jump city to city killing who ever they out number without worry.

Again it seems to be Pointless having a Unguarded city / Camps that was designed for a PK city in the 1st place, if there is actually no need to have them when you don't ever actually become known as a PKer, just a griefer with a guild and rep behind your name!

 

[Leprechaun]

Because a lot of the time a greifer will purposely start fights and lose to cause a normal non PvP type player to go red which ends up making them quit the game.

This is where Personal Choice comes in. No one is making you Kill them, how ever each priest is far enough away that, yes if they are being a dick and you think sod it, Your dieing. you take there loot, by the time they get ressed and get back to you. the chance is your long gone, moved onto something new.

You dont go Red until 5 Murder counts, and saying if you was to go red would make you quit the game, then you need to look at your own style of play. 5 chances or 4 free kills without worry I think if plenty.

and to loose a count every 8 hours, is nothing, most dedicated MMO players spend 6/8 hours a day playing, so whats that 1 free kill a day and never go red. So unless you truly are a PKer at heart, I think its safe to say you would never go red. and if by chance you do Happen to end up red, 8 hours hiding out if your house or even as a ghost till your blue again, is nothing.

 

[Dramonis]

The right thing to do is have a "criminal status" more crimes you commit more aggressive the city guards will be. Reputation should just give benefits to NPC shops or brokers.

A red criminal killed on the city could be locked in "jail" then the guild could try to breakout their friends from the jail or live the guy in there

 

[C3ncio]

First of all, you are playing MO, Mortal Online not Ultima. I don't get why people keep comparing those two games assuming if a feature works in one of them it will work in the other too. That's not. They look similar but in reality Mortal is very different from Ultima, stop comparing those games. It's just stupid.

Now, the point of the situation is, this is an open PvP game and this means that PvP happens constantly and without consent from both parts. Murdering people is, by all means, intended and a fundamental part of the game and, for this reason, players who choose to kill others don't need any form of punishment. They are not doing anything they shouldn't do and, if you don't want to kill other people, it's ok, your choice but don't try to impose YOUR gamestyle to others.

Newbs keep crying for punishments for PKs, they want PK in disadvantage cause they unconsciously think that PKs have some sort of advantage over them so, to balance things, they should be punished with some sort of disadvantage. The reality is that red players, or PKs, have nothing more than you outside of more PvP experience. They are out there seeking for troubles and YOU should be the one to give them troubles cause you have all the means to defend yourself, you can do everything they do: they use bows? You can use bows too. They run in groups? You can make a group too. There is literally nothing a red player can do that you can't and for this reason, if you lose the fight it's just your fault, you suck, get better, you will be lucky next time.
Instead, all you do, is die panicking because you have no idea of what you are supposed to do and then come here crying and asking for punishments.
What should they be punished for, being better than you?

We had the same UO system during MO1, 5 mc and you go red, while red you can't enter towns and yada yada, same thing you see in Ultima. You know what? It was trash. We had two kind of PKs back than, reds and griefers: reds doesn't give a fuck about mc, they kept collecting mc over mc just isolating themselves from the rest of game and basically giving less game opportunity to everyone and everything was damaged by this, not only economy but they kept killing people normally.
Than we had griefers, PKs that put efforts to remain blue to be able to continue griefing players in towns or around them. They just afk 8 hours to burn mc doing absolutely nothing, without any risk or something to lose while playing another character killing people normally.
Again, that system is totally trash, not only useless but actively harmful for the game, because solve nothing and weakens the economy.

I'm not saying that the system we have right now is perfect cause it definitely isn't but it's way better that the other one: the scarcity of red priests make being red a real annoyance but without cutting you out from the economy of the game. If you stay around cities griefing new players or randomly killing people your standing will die and you are forced to do the most boring task of the game over and over and over and over and over and over again, AND YOU HAVE TO DO THAT, you can't leave your character afk in a bush while you play another one, you have to actively bore you to death making life of griefers harder than before.

Think about that, there is nothing you can do to prevent people for killing other people in this game because it's the fucking focus of the game.
EVERYTHING-IN-THIS-GAME-WORKS-BECAUSE-SOMEONE-GET-KILLED.
If you don't want to be the one that get killed, train, do diplomacy and form a group, grow up as a player and you will magically stop dying, reds will not be a problem anymore. Coming here to cry and asking daddy to punish bad guys achieve nothing other than making you look like a frustrated kid.

 

[Tzone]

How does it protect the people from griefers, when its currently abused by gankers ? I myself play with a small group of friends, all of which love the game, even my wife is currently playing (her 1st MMO), but when you have the likes of some guilds like "Skif" as an example that kill on sight for the fun of it, how is that protecting players from griefers ?

Yes a genuine PKer, would be something to fear, and would be expected, even a guild that chooses to be a PK guild again as an example "Skif" then that's fine. There around to PK, but to have that Same player or Same guild sitting around the same town as you, running Rep missions to stay in that town and to kill you the second you leave the gates, That my friend is not protecting players from Griefers, if anything its Making it easy for PKers to Grief your average player.

I'm not saying punish PKers like UO did with if you ressed while red your took a stat loss, I'm saying that Pkers should be known and stand out more, and not be able to freely jump city to city killing who ever they out number without worry.

Again it seems to be Pointless having a Unguarded city / Camps that was designed for a PK city in the 1st place, if there is actually no need to have them when you don't ever actually become known as a PKer, just a griefer with a guild and rep behind your name!

because as soon as being red named is a thin SKIF will do what ever possible to make other players go red and be targets. You will be ending up red not them.

How do you know that SKIF are PKers? because you remember them being PKers. Not because they have a red name but because you use your memeory to remember who they are.

 

[Tzone]

The right thing to do is have a "criminal status" more crimes you commit more aggressive the city guards will be. Reputation should just give benefits to NPC shops or brokers.

A red criminal killed on the city could be locked in "jail" then the guild could try to breakout their friends from the jail or live the guy in there

how about people win their fights, we already have the rep system which is cancer that gets guards to be agressive to players for the crimes they committed.

People kept complaining as if this final anti PvP mechanic was put in it would solve everything and stop people from complaining for ever and ever. Every time SV caved to the anti PvPers they didnt solve any issues and created more issues while bleeding off the dedicated player base.

 

[Myta]

The reality is that red players, or PKs, have nothing more than you outside of more PvP experience.

That is fundamentally wrong.
PKs have a huge advantage, it is really difficult to overstate how large that advantage is:
They decide when the fight happens, they have the first attacks.

They can decide to only attack when outnumbering the targets 3:1. They can decide to only attack when the targets are distracted or already very low. It is nearly impossible to loose as pk against non-pks if you dont want to. They bring a group so you bring a group too? Well they just dont until attack until their group is larger.

Leprechaun already wrote that in his initial post: "Most PKs only engage when they guarantee a Win situation." This option only exists for the pk and is incredible large.

This is the problem that the red system in Ultima Online tried to solve. When the player is clearly red, he is suddenly not the only one allowed to decide the terms of engagement. Everyone can attack him freely without risking his own murdercounts or reputations or attacks from bystanders due to being criminal. But this alone still does not solve the problem. Because the targets the red player has is "everyone" while the targets the blue player has is "only reds". So on average the red player still has lot softer targets, which still means everyone should go red sooner or later. Thats why additional disadvantages like not being able to go in town and/or having fewer priests is also neccessary.

You whole argument is just fundamentally flawed and will never make sense if you base it on the assumption that pks have no advantage. They do. And its gigantic.

 

[C3ncio]

That is fundamentally wrong.
PKs have a huge advantage, it is really difficult to overstate how large that advantage is:
They decide when the fight happens, they have the first attacks.

They can decide to only attack when outnumbering the targets 3:1. They can decide to only attack when the targets are distracted or already very low. It is nearly impossible to loose as pk against non-pks if you dont want to. They bring a group so you bring a group too? Well they just dont until attack until their group is larger.

Leprechaun already wrote that in his initial post: "Most PKs only engage when they guarantee a Win situation." This option only exists for the pk and is incredible large.

This is the problem that the red system in Ultima Online tried to solve. When the player is clearly red, he is suddenly not the only one allowed to decide the terms of engagement. Everyone can attack him freely without risking his own murdercounts or reputations or attacks from bystanders due to being criminal. But this alone still does not solve the problem. Because the targets the red player has is "everyone" while the targets the blue player has is "only reds". So on average the red player still has lot softer targets, which still means everyone should go red sooner or later. Thats why additional disadvantages like not being able to go in town and/or having fewer priests is also neccessary.

You whole argument is just fundamentally flawed and will never make sense if you base it on the assumption that pks have no advantage. They do. And its gigantic.

This highlights why you guys are bad (at the game) and doesn't even realize that, and for this reason blame the game for your failures.
I repeat: this is an open pvp game and EVERYONE will attack and try to kill you, no matter if he is red, blue, grey, pink, purple, rainbow, color makes no difference. You have no idea how many blue players have already killed you. You assume that a blue player is safe just because he's blue. That's wrong! Most dangerous PKs on MO1 were blue. You lose because you expect someone or something to tell you when you have to fight and this is only your fault. Wanna follow colors? Ok, listen than: if you see any color that is not green, that's an enemy. Here you go.

You keep blathering about UO system but you probably haven't read what i already said: MO1 had the same exact system that UO have but you know what? The forum was full of crying kids blaming this system asking for something new anyway. Here we go, you got the new thing and now you blame it.
The point is, if we make colors as you want them you will just blame something else cause the only problem here is your decision making and no one can save you from that.

 

[serge]

Problem with this game is 90% of the pop is scared to engage in NORMAL pvp because they have to worry about rep and mc. Nobody wants to spawn miles away from a town just cause they had a pvp fight in the sewers. I really don't understand why this game has so many penalties for pvp when the core of the game is pvp... there's literally nothing else to do end game. If Henrik is worried about people ganking near towns have them put more guards....but don't penalize people pvping in open world just doesn't make sense. I had friends that tried the game then quit after getting 5 mcs. Maybe things will be better if they add some quality of life to player cities but games in pretty shit situation if you want to be a pvper.

 

[Leprechaun]

This highlights why you guys are bad (at the game) and doesn't even realize that, and for this reason blame the game for your failures.
I repeat: this is an open pvp game and EVERYONE will attack and try to kill you, no matter if he is red, blue, grey, pink, purple, rainbow, color makes no difference.

Wow as much criticism as a child, (just says to me your a keyboard warrior that Only engages when you have a grp to back you up) you don't know me, you don't know how I play. So assume I'm bad because I'm highlighting a flaws that allows People to gank and grief at will, with no consequences.

Sorry I cant solo 1 v 5, sorry I cant do 2 v 10 - oh and sorry I don't kill every blue player that's solo, I'm bad at the game, damn it knew Something wasn't right with me.

Correct the game is PvP orientated, but if that's your only argument then

1 : Why have a color system at all ? Blue / Grey
2 : Why have a Murder system / Rep system
3 : Why have lawless camps / Towns - that was designed for a Pker to go.
4 : Why are people calling for priests to be removed from outside dungeon's (its a PVP game apparently)

The game is a Hardcore MMO -- MMO being the big thing here! if was just a zerg PvP game then conqueror's blade or similar games to that would be the choice! so this is PvP and PvE, not everyone roams around as a Zerg grp for the battle, -- Guilds wars, Faction wars will allow that. Not everyone will par-take in that style of play.

So again, If a player / guild CHOOSES (see that we all have it "CHOICE") to be a PKer then they know the risks that come with that style of play. Being "Red" and would in turn have to plan there attacks far better than just running around outside a town while farming rep Killing every solo guy they come across.

I love the Game, I love the added risk PKers bring to playing, I've been a big fan of survival games, due to the added risk. This game I love, what I dislike is the zerg mentality of some players that Only engage when there is NO risk, and nothing you can do about it. and because they are blue before they decide to engage, they already have the upper hand.

 

[Emdash]

5 MC and you appear red and are open pvp. Bring back the red blue dynamic, simple, action. Red people can enter town, they aren't punished in any way other than having to be effectively open flagged at all times. Why not just try that out for starters? Simple solutions are best. Factions are less interesting because not all of us are in big guilds and we would like to fight sometimes as well. Zergs gonna zerg. You can't stop zerging. In a Zerg, only certain players have to PK you anyway so they can swap out. The risk of PK should be the repercussions of pk IMO. All these "punish em" extras are kinda boring to me. If people want to zerg, they should be zerging Pkers haha. Or getting caught w/ their pants down when they aren't around their zerglings.

All the systems seem really convoluted and I dunno if they fix the problems. I'm not saying this would, but it would be worth TRYING. This ain't MO1, there are more people. Some people are afraid to be open pvp. For the rest, let them fight each other and anyone else they want to - shrug - why punish people more than that? The punishment should come from the players.