Probably unpopular suggestion

[Dracu]

Hey everyone, entered alpha today and first of its freaking amazing. Loving the new combat system it feels in a really good place.

Something that does bother me somewhat though is the looking up while drawing/pulling a swing when counterattacking. Some animations look very very similar and require practise to see.

Thats something not really bad or anything in the first place since it does just require some getting used to. But to be honest atleast to me the combat feels like it is more about counter trading and footwork and. not „glitching“ animations so they look similar to each other to make them less distinguishable. Especially when it comes to different pings this might be quite annoying since its not really consistent. Feinting is ingame and does the trick enough imo.

Not sure how others see it.

 

[PatWins]

Unless low ping vs high ping is balanced, camera manipulation is the only way I can land hits on good EU players. It's your first day and landing normal attacks and counters on you was already near impossible without camera tricks. Low ping is just too powerful with good reactions.

 

[PatWins]

Also, with higher ping using footwork and out ranging your opponent is really unreliable because they hit you from far away.

 

[Dracu]

The ping difference is definitively priority i guess. Afterwards the animations would be nice though.

 

[Eldrath]

Maybe there is a way to keep the basic idea and capability but make it look less ... special.

 

[Teknique]

Hey everyone, entered alpha today and first of its freaking amazing. Loving the new combat system it feels in a really good place.

Something that does bother me somewhat though is the looking up while drawing/pulling a swing when counterattacking. Some animations look very very similar and require practise to see.

Thats something not really bad or anything in the first place since it does just require some getting used to. But to be honest atleast to me the combat feels like it is more about counter trading and footwork and. not „glitching“ animations so they look similar to each other to make them less distinguishable. Especially when it comes to different pings this might be quite annoying since its not really consistent. Feinting is ingame and does the trick enough imo.

Not sure how others see it.

Basically the combat system is much harder to land attacks, and this has put a strain on a lot of people. Nerfing whatever does work is actually the opposite of what you want. There literally will be no counter to blocking after that.

 

[Slammington Unchained]

Basically the combat system is much harder to land attacks, and this has put a strain on a lot of people.

...so what you're saying is the game's too hardcore for some people?

 

[Teknique]

...so what you're saying is the game's too hardcore for some people?

Its a vast improvement. We went from Mortal isn't for everybody. To Mortal isn't for anybody. Its in a perfect state.

 

[Dracu]

Maybe there is a way to keep the basic idea and capability but make it look less ... special.

Yes this, feinting on counter attacks, maybe. 50% charge speed bonus if a counter is feinted Or something like this. Something faster then regular but a lilbit slower then a counter.

 

[PatWins]

...so what you're saying is the game's too hardcore for some people?

Yes

 

[bbihah]

Yes this, feinting on counter attacks, maybe. 50% charge speed bonus if a counter is feinted Or something like this. Something faster then regular but a lilbit slower then a counter.

Or go the route most games with similar fighting systems go. Add a delay to blocking. If you block one direction you cant block a different direction for X amount of time. This way you are meant to block when you see the swing coming at you, not the charge. And someone attacking you can Bait you into blocking and you then switch direction.

Problem with this is there needs to be something in place to make sure regardless of ping you or the other person have, you have about the same time to react on a swing, or at least marginally the same no matter who attacks or defends. The game in its current state would have it very lopsided.


Speaking of the original topic, gaming the system to hide the telegraphing of swings.
I made a pretty long post about this in the thread combat/Overall feedback, it was deleted because one word used out of context.
To sum it up, It looks hella dumb, it feels hella crap to play, having to have high mouse sensitivity and move around like a special person. But most importantly, it negates the reason why they made swing telegraphing so obvious in the first place. Blocking definitely need counterplay but this ain't it.



Neither is limited blocking arc, in 1v1. The amount of times getting hit in the back is actually what happened on both ends is the very rare exception. And if you can't see the guy, how do you know what direction to block?
in 1v Many, when are you going to on purpose pull off blocks to people attacking you from a direction you can not see? very rarily.
Add a blocking delay mechanic (cooldown) and a connected mechanic to let you chain blocks(delay reset upon successful block for example) and you would have a harder time turtling multiple opponents than currently but very skill dependent on both sides, even if they are all coming at you where you can see them you wont have to be forced to take X - 1 attack every time you block if the block delay would reset on successful blocking. Unless they attack at the very same time from different swing directions or faster than you can block and then quickly adjust it for the next attack. If you have one or multiple people behind you, even with delay reset you are not going to be pulling off reliable blocks to your rear unless they are doing the same attack directions as the people in front, plus you'd have to right after successfully blocking risk putting yourself on delay just to potentially block the guy behind you on the off chance his attack is coming and from that direction.

With limited blocking arc combat will be a game of catching tails, except you cant keep the guy off your tail since what you see is delayed(even with good ping vs good ping) and there are going to be a LOT of events where someone is hitting another guy in the ass when on that guys end he is staring at the guy.


There will also be events like this:

Around the 50 second to the minute mark.
Except whoever decides to block instead of attack will take hits through his block.

Let me explain what is happening in the video, the prediction system shows the guy in front of him with his back turned to him. What has actually occurred is the guy ran around him and is currently on his own end behind the person recording. So they are behind each other at the same time. The person not recording is most definitely thinking this;

Im on his back, lets get some damage in.
(Guy recording sees the guy attacking with his back turned to him, knows that he is getting attacked) And
Guy attacking gets blocked, now he is probably thinking WTF I WAS BEHIND HIM, DAMN 360 BLOCKING
Meanwhile they are infact on each others backs.

This happened all the time in Mo1, except the blocking arc is limited in Mo1, so you get that in a majority of fights, obviously changing between patch to patch. But generally anyway everyone is/was just chasing each others tail. Why? Because it works and there is little you can do about it because in the end, gaming the system is found to be a counter to get around blocks and people will use it. Its not like there are any alternatives.

 

[ElPerro]

Or go the route most games with similar fighting systems go. Add a delay to blocking. If you block one direction you cant block a different direction for X amount of time. This way you are meant to block when you see the swing coming at you, not the charge. And someone attacking you can Bait you into blocking and you then switch direction.

Problem with this is there needs to be something in place to make sure regardless of ping you or the other person have, you have about the same time to react on a swing, or at least marginally the same no matter who attacks or defends. The game in its current state would have it very lopsided.


Speaking of the original topic, gaming the system to hide the telegraphing of swings.
I made a pretty long post about this in the thread combat/Overall feedback, it was deleted because one word used out of context.
To sum it up, It looks hella dumb, it feels hella crap to play, having to have high mouse sensitivity and move around like a special person. But most importantly, it negates the reason why they made swing telegraphing so obvious in the first place. Blocking definitely need counterplay but this ain't it.



Neither is limited blocking arc, in 1v1. The amount of times getting hit in the back is actually what happened on both ends is the very rare exception. And if you can't see the guy, how do you know what direction to block?
in 1v Many, when are you going to on purpose pull off blocks to people attacking you from a direction you can not see? very rarily.
Add a blocking delay mechanic (cooldown) and a connected mechanic to let you chain blocks(delay reset upon successful block for example) and you would have a harder time turtling multiple opponents than currently but very skill dependent on both sides, even if they are all coming at you where you can see them you wont have to be forced to take X - 1 attack every time you block if the block delay would reset on successful blocking. Unless they attack at the very same time from different swing directions or faster than you can block and then quickly adjust it for the next attack. If you have one or multiple people behind you, even with delay reset you are not going to be pulling off reliable blocks to your rear unless they are doing the same attack directions as the people in front, plus you'd have to right after successfully blocking risk putting yourself on delay just to potentially block the guy behind you on the off chance his attack is coming and from that direction.

With limited blocking arc combat will be a game of catching tails, except you cant keep the guy off your tail since what you see is delayed(even with good ping vs good ping) and there are going to be a LOT of events where someone is hitting another guy in the ass when on that guys end he is staring at the guy.


There will also be events like this:

Around the 50 second to the minute mark.
Except whoever decides to block instead of attack will take hits through his block.

Let me explain what is happening in the video, the prediction system shows the guy in front of him with his back turned to him. What has actually occurred is the guy ran around him and is currently on his own end behind the person recording. So they are behind each other at the same time. The person not recording is most definitely thinking this;

Im on his back, lets get some damage in.
(Guy recording sees the guy attacking with his back turned to him, knows that he is getting attacked) And
Guy attacking gets blocked, now he is probably thinking WTF I WAS BEHIND HIM, DAMN 360 BLOCKING
Meanwhile they are infact on each others backs.

This happened all the time in Mo1, except the blocking arc is limited in Mo1, so you get that in a majority of fights, obviously changing between patch to patch. But generally anyway everyone is/was just chasing each others tail. Why? Because it works and there is little you can do about it because in the end, gaming the system is found to be a counter to get around blocks and people will use it. Its not like there are any alternatives.

I didnt have much problem with ppl hitting my back in MO1, you just have to learn to aim your parrys and use footwork so ppl cant get to your back as easily. Its not that big of a deal, you still get reduced blocked damage, it used to do full damage.

"Chasing each others tail" aka using footwork is more fun than Statue Online

We might need a small delay like in MO1 still, but nothing more or the game will become mordhau. This instant block thing only works in M&B because hits dont need to be charged and are instant too, its a bit too op when you have to charge your hits.

 

[bbihah]

I didnt have much problem with ppl hitting my back in MO1, you just have to learn to aim your parrys and use footwork so ppl cant get to your back as easily. Its not that big of a deal, you still get reduced blocked damage, it used to do full damage.

"Chasing each others tail" aka using footwork is more fun than Statue Online

We might need a small delay like in MO1 still, but nothing more or the game will become mordhau. This instant block thing only works in M&B because hits dont need to be charged and are instant too, its a bit too op when you have to charge your hits.

Back hitting was always a major problem in Mo1. It was and is extremely easy to get stuck in a situation where someone is shoving his back into your face while hitting you in the back because how the prediction system works. In reality you are both staring at each others backs. This usually happens the most when you have two people going for each others backs or otherwise sprinting around at each other and then walking when getting close. And usually involves a lot of swearing about him hitting through blocks or loudly exclaiming about how annoyed you are that you keep getting handle hits with him in your face.


A vast majority of the annoying fighters i fought in the past would try to do nothing but hit you in the "back", which would have worked fantastically for them if my fight style didn't involve trading blows instead of relying on parries. My character was and is a max size thur/kall with max damage bonus and wearing heavy armor, even in the period when heavy armor was sort of something people didn't want to wear. The main complaint would be instead of me complaining about being hit in the back, be them complaining how they are being hit while "behind" me.

It has little to do with footwork in a game where everyone is always slightly desynched and sliding around, how the hell could it ever be about footwork when the game is so wonky? If you are one of the people that like sprinting around going for peoples backs and somehow are amazed that people are so bad and not blocking you. Well, just letting you know that they most likely did. Its just that the game doesn't let them. Much like how if you are playing mo2, you probably notice that when you try to do this you keep getting blocked and wondering how he can block you when he is clearly "not" seeing you?

The only time mo1 did not see people sprinting around the netcode people was the famous implementation of defender biased blocking. This is when what the defender saw and did when it came to block was absolute. Even though this might have been fine if there was actual counters to blocking, it was not fine. I think it was referred to as Turtle mode. It was a bad time in MOs history, due to good reason.

SV knows about the problem, why do you think we have 360 blocking right now? The alternative is defender biased blocking which brings a slew of other issues OR people staring at people hitting them through their block.

If you don't ever remember having to look behind you to land a block, you have not played Mo1 long enough. #Gatekeeping


I think the delay might be the only immediate change the game needs right now to add depth to the combat and they should work from there. Adding more depth to the combat that doesn't involve abusing the netcode or animations, but rather makes defending require skill and patience/timing is a step in the right direction. There will be changes needed to the netcode though. As US players already have issues with having way to little time to block against lower ping players (from what i've heard). I think blocking might be completely screwed for them if all you did was implement a delay, so some changes that makes sure the defender always has adequate chance to parry if they actually wait for swings rather than anticipating a hit, like you do now.

Blocking in MO is currently anticipatory, when it becomes reactionary because of mechanics is when people will stop feeling cheated by the mechanic.

My best guess anyway, wont know until we get to try.

 

[ElPerro]

Back hitting was always a major problem in Mo1. It was and is extremely easy to get stuck in a situation where someone is shoving his back into your face while hitting you in the back because how the prediction system works. In reality you are both staring at each others backs. This usually happens the most when you have two people going for each others backs or otherwise sprinting around at each other and then walking when getting close. And usually involves a lot of swearing about him hitting through blocks or loudly exclaiming about how annoyed you are that you keep getting handle hits with him in your face.


A vast majority of the annoying fighters i fought in the past would try to do nothing but hit you in the "back", which would have worked fantastically for them if my fight style didn't involve trading blows instead of relying on parries. My character was and is a max size thur/kall with max damage bonus and wearing heavy armor, even in the period when heavy armor was sort of something people didn't want to wear. The main complaint would be instead of me complaining about being hit in the back, be them complaining how they are being hit while "behind" me.

It has little to do with footwork in a game where everyone is always slightly desynched and sliding around, how the hell could it ever be about footwork when the game is so wonky? If you are one of the people that like sprinting around going for peoples backs and somehow are amazed that people are so bad and not blocking you. Well, just letting you know that they most likely did. Its just that the game doesn't let them. Much like how if you are playing mo2, you probably notice that when you try to do this you keep getting blocked and wondering how he can block you when he is clearly "not" seeing you?

The only time mo1 did not see people sprinting around the netcode people was the famous implementation of defender biased blocking. This is when what the defender saw and did when it came to block was absolute. Even though this might have been fine if there was actual counters to blocking, it was not fine. I think it was referred to as Turtle mode. It was a bad time in MOs history, due to good reason.

SV knows about the problem, why do you think we have 360 blocking right now? The alternative is defender biased blocking which brings a slew of other issues OR people staring at people hitting them through their block.

If you don't ever remember having to look behind you to land a block, you have not played Mo1 long enough. #Gatekeeping


I think the delay might be the only immediate change the game needs right now to add depth to the combat and they should work from there. Adding more depth to the combat that doesn't involve abusing the netcode or animations, but rather makes defending require skill and patience/timing is a step in the right direction. There will be changes needed to the netcode though. As US players already have issues with having way to little time to block against lower ping players (from what i've heard). I think blocking might be completely screwed for them if all you did was implement a delay, so some changes that makes sure the defender always has adequate chance to parry if they actually wait for swings rather than anticipating a hit, like you do now.

Blocking in MO is currently anticipatory, when it becomes reactionary because of mechanics is when people will stop feeling cheated by the mechanic.

My best guess anyway, wont know until we get to try.

It has everything to do with footwork. This prediction back hitting thing only works on ppl that fight like parry whore statues and its a good counter to that. Even then you can learn the prediction system and how to aim your blocks. Also the game being laggy and desynched actually helps your footwork, you obviously havent fought many australians.

Is it a perfect system? Nope, if only we had regional servers the server wouldnt have to predict so much. But its much better than having 360 blocking and forces ppl to be more aggresive, which ends up in more fun duels/fights. Not to mention the retarded shit this brings like parrying while getting sticky backed.

Btw Henrik already confirmed 360 blocking is getting replaced with blocking arc, so they probably just didnt have enough time or feedback to implement it yet. Looks like your just gonna have to put your big boy pants and deal with it.

 

[Phen]

To be fair to the creators. MO2 is very well done. This doesnt mean I dont get frustrated with latency. Though from MO1 to MO2, theres a wonderful difference.

Parrying and connecting hits felt better in MO1, as it was faster. The down side was the continuous range difference becuase of ping rates. With MO2 it's at least doable even with higher ping rates because of the slower fighting. Even though I rather be more Ninja than Turtle... The team fights are absolutely amazing. Rarely in MO1 was I able to help much. It was fairly easy to see my lag at times (The Magic FU Line) , in MO2 this isnt the case during bigger battles. Making it feel fantastic.

It's a game of battles and strategy, information and exploration, politics and war dicks, with some trial and error. @Dracu I agree with you, although MO1 was rough in many ways that MO2 isnt so rough.

 

[bbihah]

I disagree, this is exactly the route they took last time, and it was clearly the wrong one. They should test other methods instead of having a repeat of what mortal online 1 went through.

360 blocking is not the problem, it is something that makes blocking stronger but the problem people have with it lies in that the combat needs more depth and other limits to blocking is needed and they should test this instead. If they add spears with only one attack direction, 360 blocking will make spears completely unusable unless there are ways to get around blocks. Spears could have multiple attack directions too, a overhead thrust can be easily telegraphed, swing animations that are swings that are less side to side and more direct that deal piercing damage and is easy to distinguish is entirely possible.



I do think the game should have regional servers, but even if that is in their plan down the road they still have to account for high ping players and a very good way to get data on that is not having regional servers right now and having americans and other high ping players test so that they can make their combat better. They should definitely at some point in testing remove the 360 blocking, even if the desynch is still there. Just so they can tweak and tell that its still there and get necessary data.