I don't know what it is with this change making pole weapons attack like spears, but it sucks. I'm sure not for the 90% of melee that are using them, but that the problem. People spin around and do a circular twist with their mouse and you cannot see what direction it is at all, and the side swing does the same damage as a full roundhouse left swing would, even when it's the blunt side of a bardiche which makes no sense. The stamina cost on them is non existent, even though I'm certain in RL they are heavy as ... and unwieldy. Look I know, I use them too, because it is the most op bs in game right now, and hard to compete if you are not, which is why I think they need something done to them. Before this change, there was a good mix of weapons being used, now if your not using them you are at a disadvantage. Thought?
Pole Weapons new Attacks...
- Thread starter jgonano
- Start date
My argument all along is polearms should be a bit underwhelming in infantry vs. infantry fights (as they were before) and amazing infantry vs. mounted.
"This isn't a counter based game! Buff them vs. infantry!"
Now they are the new FOTM. Go figure.
"This isn't a counter based game! Buff them vs. infantry!"
Now they are the new FOTM. Go figure.
That doesn't seem very realistic at all though, while polearms were decent against cavalry, it was spears/pikes/moats/stakes and massed archers that typically countered cavalry, polearms are very specifically designed to fight well against heavily armored infantry.
Of course but the generalization is for a reason. Counters are for a reason. It's not just pure realism.
1. Daggers
2. Spears
3. 1h Swords
4. 1h Axes
5. 1h Clubs
6. 2h Swords
7. Poleswords
8. 2h Axes
9. Poleaxes
10. 2h Clubs
I'd consider proper balance each of those having their own strengths and weaknesses that makes them feel useful. If you're saying "All of the weapons are meant to be good against infantry", you have 10 different weapons CATEGORIES to balance each with the same general purpose. Good luck. We haven't even gotten into sub-weapons in each category yet.
If the purpose is to counter heavily armored infantry (I'd consider this more of a gross generalization than pike's anti-cav function implied to most polearms given things like the glaive certainly were not) you now share this purpose with 2h Clubs.
And that's why "no counters" leads to FOTM. 10 weapons categories all jockeying to be the best at the same general role. Baking soft or hard counters into a weapon's functionality leads to what I call "self-balancing mechanics" which greatly reduces the impact of FOTM builds.
If mounted melee have the advantage against infantry not armed with polearms, non-polearm infantry have the advantage against polearms, and polearm infantry have the advantage against mounts this leads to a dynamic that keeps the community somewhat balanced even if no balance patches ever come.
If mounted melee becomes dominant, more people will run polearms. If polearms become dominant, more people will run swords, etc. As a FOTM grows in popularity even if just soft counters for it exist, those soft-counters become better to run and in turn make the FOTM less dominant. Self-balancing.
1. Daggers
2. Spears
3. 1h Swords
4. 1h Axes
5. 1h Clubs
6. 2h Swords
7. Poleswords
8. 2h Axes
9. Poleaxes
10. 2h Clubs
I'd consider proper balance each of those having their own strengths and weaknesses that makes them feel useful. If you're saying "All of the weapons are meant to be good against infantry", you have 10 different weapons CATEGORIES to balance each with the same general purpose. Good luck. We haven't even gotten into sub-weapons in each category yet.
If the purpose is to counter heavily armored infantry (I'd consider this more of a gross generalization than pike's anti-cav function implied to most polearms given things like the glaive certainly were not) you now share this purpose with 2h Clubs.
And that's why "no counters" leads to FOTM. 10 weapons categories all jockeying to be the best at the same general role. Baking soft or hard counters into a weapon's functionality leads to what I call "self-balancing mechanics" which greatly reduces the impact of FOTM builds.
If mounted melee have the advantage against infantry not armed with polearms, non-polearm infantry have the advantage against polearms, and polearm infantry have the advantage against mounts this leads to a dynamic that keeps the community somewhat balanced even if no balance patches ever come.
If mounted melee becomes dominant, more people will run polearms. If polearms become dominant, more people will run swords, etc. As a FOTM grows in popularity even if just soft counters for it exist, those soft-counters become better to run and in turn make the FOTM less dominant. Self-balancing.
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At this point we should all just accept that this game will never be skill based.
Yes parrying has been strong since the inception of MO 2 I don't deny that.
but the people who are/were crying because they take damage occasionally have and will break it even more. THE THINGS THAT DO DAMAGE AREN'T THE PROBLEM
At this point i'm genuinely hoping for 500 hp bull horses and 200 damage mauls on horse back, with OP pets. At least it'll be kind of fun and we can blame the community for crying about everything that takes a bit of skill.
Yes parrying has been strong since the inception of MO 2 I don't deny that.
but the people who are/were crying because they take damage occasionally have and will break it even more. THE THINGS THAT DO DAMAGE AREN'T THE PROBLEM
At this point i'm genuinely hoping for 500 hp bull horses and 200 damage mauls on horse back, with OP pets. At least it'll be kind of fun and we can blame the community for crying about everything that takes a bit of skill.
I'd be ecstatic too because the current meta is foot-fighters (particularly melee focused ones) are WAY overpowered. Or rather, everything else is super underpowered by comparison.
Like seriously. People were saying things like "If you have your bow out while the group is fighting in melee then either you are Legolas or you're just wrong." during the MIDDLE of the whole "Archery is OP" phase this community went through.
Newsflash. That means Archery was NEVER OP. It was useful. Huge distinction.
People have already been complaining about pets and they're absolutely useless in 90% of fights with the current pathing mechanics, and not so great in group fights either currently. You think I'm going to drag a bear all the way from it's spawn back to a stable just to get separated from or slow down my group every 10 seconds because my bear decides the pebble in front of it is too daunting to walk past?
Pets are garbage. It's why nobody uses them.
Don't even get me started on the current state of mounts / mounted. They only get used if one or more parties start the fight mounted because they were traveling. Massive targets that die insanely easily. Not sure why they even bothered putting all these mounted combat styles in the game when they are dragging their feet on mount armor. And a 500 Bullhorse would be nearly as garbage as a 300 HP Steppe without mount armor.
Mages are pretty good in large group fights only, though they still make up the minority of any force if you aren't anticipating water fights. Hybrids got nerfed to shit when they weren't even OP to begin with.
This game is "foot-fighters online". So yeah I'm 100% in favor of anything the melee elitist community is crying is OP because if they AREN'T crying about something it means it's not even useful.
Hell. I'd even be pumped to see more interesting build variations/roles WITHIN the melee-focused-footfighter arena. Like I seriously wonder how a force of 100% Ohgmir footfighters with polearm primaries and longbow backups would do against every other potential combination of builds. Probably disgustingly well.
Like seriously. People were saying things like "If you have your bow out while the group is fighting in melee then either you are Legolas or you're just wrong." during the MIDDLE of the whole "Archery is OP" phase this community went through.
Newsflash. That means Archery was NEVER OP. It was useful. Huge distinction.
People have already been complaining about pets and they're absolutely useless in 90% of fights with the current pathing mechanics, and not so great in group fights either currently. You think I'm going to drag a bear all the way from it's spawn back to a stable just to get separated from or slow down my group every 10 seconds because my bear decides the pebble in front of it is too daunting to walk past?
Pets are garbage. It's why nobody uses them.
Don't even get me started on the current state of mounts / mounted. They only get used if one or more parties start the fight mounted because they were traveling. Massive targets that die insanely easily. Not sure why they even bothered putting all these mounted combat styles in the game when they are dragging their feet on mount armor. And a 500 Bullhorse would be nearly as garbage as a 300 HP Steppe without mount armor.
Mages are pretty good in large group fights only, though they still make up the minority of any force if you aren't anticipating water fights. Hybrids got nerfed to shit when they weren't even OP to begin with.
This game is "foot-fighters online". So yeah I'm 100% in favor of anything the melee elitist community is crying is OP because if they AREN'T crying about something it means it's not even useful.
Hell. I'd even be pumped to see more interesting build variations/roles WITHIN the melee-focused-footfighter arena. Like I seriously wonder how a force of 100% Ohgmir footfighters with polearm primaries and longbow backups would do against every other potential combination of builds. Probably disgustingly well.
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Context. Nuance. Just because archery doesn't turn a bot into a god doesn't mean it isn't/wasn't OP.
Complete strawman. I'm not talking about turning bots into gods. If the call is for everyone to put bows away when melee is joined then archery is at most balanced. You can't call something OP when it becomes sub-par the moment anyone engages in the primary fighting style in the entire game. Literally all that is needed for one side to end a range exchange is push.
How could anyone possibly call that OP?
Well the problem is in the specifics of that scenario you’re describing.
The people involved probably could’ve kept their bows out if they could hit their targets. And in truth it likely wouldn’t have made a difference if they had melee weapons or not regardless of the call
the reasons that it it’s op was simple. The damage at the top end of the str curve 120-123 is just way too great. 106 str bows for example are fine.
Look at the player aimbot for example who was maybe 10xing the avg foot fighter dmg output but you wanna use random new players as the baseline?
Lmao imagine thinking "archery was never OP", its still completely braindead which is the reason every kid you see in a zerg has a bow in his hands. I wont talk about a full huergar being able to stand still using the stand still clade and out DPSing a melee that's in his face slicing away. Oh but make no mistake, its not only the huergar clade that's broken, any 120~ str bow user can do that.
Pets are broken trash, whoever was the idiot that said "Bears only do 3 dmg" is a brainlet, just the other day I had a bear in GK hitting me for 30s through ironbone armor every .5 seconds with like 500 HP. Imagine thinking that "pets are trash" just because that absolutely braindead click and forget pet cant ALSO STICKY CHASE SOMEONE TO DEATH LMAO. If the enemy group has a bear and its on you, you cant fight them period until its off you, its unblockable and trucks you every .5 seconds.
Also imagine thinking mages are only good in large scale fights. Fatmages are probably the most broken shit in the game at the moment, and the same huergar clade that makes the footarchers take 10 damage each hit also works on the fatmages that are hitting you for 80s with flamestrikes. Oh right they can also just pull out a worn shortsword or shield and parry like a warrior.
Yes, I would like to compare the average archer with the average footfighter. Not the best archer with the average melee.
Also I can dig up the graphs/data but there is no exponential curve on archery damage that favors high-end archers. R/S actually falls off a bit as you go up in strength.
I don’t think that’s what you’re doing though. You’re comparing the one experience you had with new players to the average vet
Everyone has a bow because it works off strength making it a 100 point investment for all melee builds. The "zergs" tell you to put your bow away if melee is joined because they are nowhere near as strong as people in your face swinging a melee weapon. Doesn't mean it's not useful in certain strategic scenarios but that is in no way OP which is why melee still dominates EVERY fight right now.
When melee is the dominant fighting style and always has been going back to the beginning of MO2, saying something is OP just because a lot of people make the 100 point dip to put it in their build is basically saying foot-melee deserves to be more prominent than anything else. I realize that DOES make it OP in the opinion of several of posters here because that's precisely what they all want. But is not OP in any kind of rational/objective fashion.
That's why exactly 0 pets were used the entire day after I put mine in the stables after 20 minutes when we were farming your guys all day in GK Sunday? Sure they are powerful but random doorways get them stuck, die easy enough in group fights, and good pet is more valuable than multiple sets of gears. Even with 500 of my primary points being negated by putting my pet away, it was simply easier to not have to look back every 10 seconds to make sure my pet isn't hung up on invisible obstacles.
Fatmages can't parry with shortwords for shit if your enemy has a decent weapon. Did you miss that whole memo were heavy weapons mostly bypass parries of smaller weapons?
Like you guys run 80-90% melee guys and switch to melee for the bulk of the fighting every fight but you can only talk about how powerful everything BUT melee is. You're talking shit on how OP pets are and you don't even run them. It's insane.
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Not one experience. Chieftan was saying the moment melee is joined in any fight people need to put bows away and join the melee push as a blanket statment. And I'm 90% sure you were there and agreeing with him.
To be clear. I agree with that call as well. But that call being true is the complete end of any legitimacy to the claim archery is OP. In Darkfall, we had guys doing special drills on firing into melee because it was a very powerful tactic in some scenarios. In MO2 people put bows away to join the push. /debate
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make em a bit slower and increase stamina drain, done balanced.
Buf for real they hit like a truck, are fast as fuck, stamina drain is low and the animation is very damn good making it easy to hide your swings or stabs right now the most op weapon no arguing here
you can actually hit people without even having your enemy on the screen lol we tested that shit and it can get really stupid add ping and desync and you cant parry for shit lol
Buf for real they hit like a truck, are fast as fuck, stamina drain is low and the animation is very damn good making it easy to hide your swings or stabs right now the most op weapon no arguing here
you can actually hit people without even having your enemy on the screen lol we tested that shit and it can get really stupid add ping and desync and you cant parry for shit lol
...not to get in the middle of this or interrupt but I just wanted to clarify if you invest 60 pts in Blocking a mage can in truth block with a shield just fine. You still take some chip damage but not giant amounts like you do with no skill pt investment.
This. Then they can narrow down the parry arc, and shorten the time you can parry, and also speed up swings.
Yeah lets nerf anything that can get through parries. We cant have players mis parrying right, even if they can correct their block direction in a fraction of a second.
Actually having to duel for a few hours and learn the animations? Nah thats too much work...
Btw they cost more stam to swing and are slower than swords, while costing double the skill points. Why would anyone bother if they drained even more?
Actually having to duel for a few hours and learn the animations? Nah thats too much work...
Btw they cost more stam to swing and are slower than swords, while costing double the skill points. Why would anyone bother if they drained even more?
Btw the whole ping normalization thing actually doesn’t need to be thrown away completely. Right now it’s set to astronomically high ping normalization but if they brought it down to half it would actually be one of the most impressive things and actually is that sv has ever done