Poise - Parry break

[Woody]

Problem

There is no natural way to break through a parry of a perfectly capable defensive player. Furthermore, being a networked game, the suggested solutions of "kicks" or "special attacks" that aim to partially solve this are limited by animations, desync and varying pings.

Solution

The game requires a parry break effect that can occur naturally throughout the fight, and not simply through an action that needs to be synchronised across varying pings.

I suggest we look at a Poise-like mechanic that creates vulnerability windows during longer fights of equally skilled opponents.

Poise
The idea is that every player has a poise cap that is visible in their statistics. Their current poise during a fight however, is a hidden value. The idea of Poise is that the heavier your Armor, the more poise you get to play with before your [Parry] become [Blocks], benefiting foot fighters.

Poise = 5% of Dex + Equipped Armor weight + 0-10% via "Stagger Resistance"
Stagger Resistance would be a new primary skill under Balance

For each melee attack made against you, parry, block or hit, you will take poise damage.

Poise will only regenerate after 3 secs of not being struck in any form by melee or ranged attacks (note ranged doesn't cause poise damage).

Upon recovery, poise instantly refills to the % amount of stamina you currently have. E.g. if you have 75% stamina at the point of recovery, you will get 75% of your total poise pool. If your stamina increases after this point, your poise will continue to increase alongside stamina. It will stop regenerating if stamina drops below it's current %. If your stamina was below your poise, poise will stay the same.

When your poise reaches 0, you will visibly stagger for 0.5 seconds and for that time will be unable to start a new attack or parry. Additionally, for 3 seconds your [Parry] become [Block], at which point your poise instantly refills to your current stamina %.

Poise damage is calculated based on the weight of the weapon, and the charge time held of the attack:

Weapon weight	Charge Time	Poise Damage Taken (weapon weight)
4kg	100%	4
4kg	50%	2
4kg	25%	1
4kg	120%	4.8
2kg	75%	1.5
2kg	25%	0.5

EDIT
To reward parrying and to give shields some value through their higher frequency of equipment hits, poise damage reduction could also be included based on the following:

[Parry] = 50%
[Block] = 25%
[Equipment] = 50%
[Handle]/[Arm] = 50%

This gives the potential for 100% poise-dmg reduction as it is possible to parry a handle/arm hit etc. This rewards you for parrying properly + penalises the enemy for hitting you with their handle/arm.

Pros

• Targets foot fighters given the large contribution from armor weight.
• Disincentives walling up and simply playing too defensive.
• Charge time variable makes it so quick attack/spam does less poise damage.
• The poise recovery timer of 3 seconds encourages the player to go on the offensive in order to force their opponent to defend for a period.
  • This gives them both a chance to recover poise while also keeping their opponents poise in check.
• Scales off weapon weight/speed.
  • Slower weapons that have a harder time getting through parries get some love.
• Gives further value and importance to stamina management throughout a fight.
• Simply running away to trigger the poise timer is less effective due to stamina being a limiting factor.
• Magic doesn't impact poise.
• Naked's with a basic sword will have very low Poise making them stagger more frequently, which counters this frustrating aspect of the game.
• EDIT: Benefits shields through equipment hit poise damage reduction.

Cons

• Stagger could feel clunky if the visible stagger isn't done correctly.
• Less reactional control as to when you as a player get "staggered" given it's a stat based system and not a push, kick etc.
• Not knowing your current poise might be too frustrating.
• This would increase the disparity between light and heavy armors more with the game's current state.
  • Would require changes to how armor weight impacts core stats (e.g. speed, stam etc).

Thoughts? Workable?

 

[Jackdstripper]

The parry break is a thunderlash to the face.

seriously, can we please focus more on group fighting balance instead of this 1 on 1 dueling elitism?

Yes, 1 on 1 beyween similar skilled warriors is a drawn out and tedious parry fest, but that not the reality of warfare 98% of the time. Its team fights. And in team fights people die very fast, cause you cant parry from multiple angles.

the more complicated and convoluted dueling mechanics are implemented the more tedious and frustrating combat becomes. This is not a dueling simulator. Focus on team and playstyile balance. Mages, warriors, tamers, mounted all contributing. Not this dueling bs.

 

[Woody]

The parry break is a thunderlash to the face.

seriously, can we please focus more on group fighting balance instead of this 1 on 1 dueling elitism?

Yes, 1 on 1 beyween similar skilled warriors is a drawn out and tedious parry fest, but that not the reality of warfare 98% of the time. Its team fights. And in team fights people die very fast, cause you cant parry from multiple angles.

the more complicated and convoluted dueling mechanics are implemented the more tedious and frustrating combat becomes. This is not a dueling simulator. Focus on team and playstyile balance. Mages, warriors, tamers, mounted all contributing. Not this dueling bs.

The devs intent is to already introduce some form of parry breaks anyway (kick, special attack etc) so it doesn't change anything with regards to the potential eventuality that this will be addressed for duellers. Yes absolutely look at the bigger picture when it comes to balance and group play. However, what I'm suggesting is an alternative that happens naturally through combat and doesn't rely on a solution based on synchronizing player kicks/special attacks across a variety of pings.

Additionally, trying to balance group fighting is a fools errand. You need a structured set of variables and matchups to balance anything and the very make up of fighting in MO2 group play is so unstructured that it would be impossible to even get any form or semblance of balance. The best they can hope to do is ensure metas are addressed as they form.

 

[Kelzyr]

I don't think you can add something that buffs heavy armors more. There is already no reason to wear lighter armors and this would give heavier armors even more of a buff.

I could only get behind a change like this if they made it so lighter armors had more benefits other than mana regen. Maybe a speed reduction after 4-6kg or something.

A change like this does sound alright, but you'd continue to increase pointlessness of lighter armors

 

[Woody]

I don't think you can add something that buffs heavy armors more. There is already no reason to wear lighter armors and this would give heavier armors even more of a buff.

I could only get behind a change like this if they made it so lighter armors had more benefits other than mana regen. Maybe a speed reduction after 4-6kg or something.

A change like this does sound alright, but you'd continue to increase pointlessness of lighter armors

Agreed this could force the disparity between armors being used in the game.

While not addressing what can be done with light armors to make them more useful, in this example, the reason heavy armor is used is because it directly targets foot fighters for the intended implementation. It also does end up having some interaction with the stamina penalty through heavy armor usage, when it comes to the amount of Poise recovery.

Added this to the cons cheers.

 

[Tzone]

The solution in 1v1s is feints and morphs. It is high skilled play.
The solution in groupfights is holding attacks, to attack at different directions.

 

[Woody]

The solution in 1v1s is feints and morphs. It is high skilled play.
The solution in groupfights is holding attacks, to attack at different directions.

I don't see how this is relevant but if anything, this suggestion would increase the skill ceiling further while providing a parry break mechanic that is not tied to a physical action like a kick, which is prone to desync and network lag. It would not invalidate feints, morphs, holding attacks etc.

 

[Jackdstripper]

And what happens in group fights when you get focused by multiple people? Do you all of a sudden get staggered galore on top of getting focused?

And what about mages with armour? Do they have to contend with getting stagered after having to block a bunch of hits to try and stay alive cause they cant run away anymore?

are mounted gonna get staggered? If not thats a huge buff for mounteds.

the idea works only in 1vs1. Put it into a group settings and its becomes a huge pain in the ass.

 

[Woody]

And what happens in group fights when you get focused by multiple people? Do you all of a sudden get staggered galore on top of getting focused?

The frequency of staggers would increase simply because you're getting struck more yes but I've taken this into account, in that if you hit 0 poise, you are guaranteed a full recovery up to your stamina %. This ensures stun locking isn't a thing.

And what about mages with armour? Do they have to contend with getting stagered after having to block a bunch of hits to try and stay alive cause they cant run away anymore?

Of course, why wouldn't they? If a mage is in melee range of a foot fighter and trying to parry why would they get a free pass? Mages already get a massive advantage against foot fighters given the lack of magic protection in the game. If a foot fighter closes the gap on you, parrying endlessly shouldn't be a given.

are mounted gonna get staggered? If not thats a huge buff for mounteds.

Possibly? But this isn't the focus of this thread and is a whole other aspect of gameplay that needs addressing separately around dismounts etc. I'm addressing parrying on foot.

 

[MolagAmur]

I respect the idea and its honestly not a bad one. I would be all for it if it didn't even further benefit a heavy armor/heavy weapon meta.

This game desperately needs benefits of lighter weight armors and this is a step in the wrong direction.

 

[Rhias]

I respect the idea and its honestly not a bad one. I would be all for it if it didn't even further benefit a heavy armor/heavy weapon meta.

This game desperately needs benefits of lighter weight armors and this is a step in the wrong direction.

I also like it, but it should be the other way around. Light weight armors should get the advantage, not heavy ones.

 

[Jackdstripper]

The frequency of staggers would increase simply because you're getting struck more yes but I've taken this into account, in that if you hit 0 poise, you are guaranteed a full recovery up to your stamina %. This ensures stun locking isn't a thing.


this would make getting focused on an almost guaranteed death sentence. Not only are you getting hit by multiple enemies, but now you get punished further and have to eat a bunch of damage without being able to block or parry. You literally have to stand there and take a bunch of damage completely helplessly. It will simply become a race to whom can focus the most people onto 1 target and spam attacks to trigger the poise cap. Not the least bit fun.


Of course, why wouldn't they? If a mage is in melee range of a foot fighter and trying to parry why would they get a free pass? Mages already get a massive advantage against foot fighters given the lack of magic protection in the game. If a foot fighter closes the gap on you, parrying endlessly shouldn't be a given.

I really dont think you have played much as a mage if you truly believe that a mage has a massive advantage over a warrior. Try and out dps a warrior while you cast and he swings at you. See how massive that advantage is when your cast is interrupted, and you lose 1/3 of your health per hit. On top of this you would ad a mechanic that forces you to eat more damage. I dont think so.



Possibly? But this isn't the focus of this thread and is a whole other aspect of gameplay that needs addressing separately around dismounts etc. I'm addressing parrying on foot.

the only thing you are addressing is parrying in a 1vs1. In group settings this mechanic would be awful. It doesnt take into account any other playstyle besides heavy armour warrior. It is very narrow in scope and frankly quite unfair to every other playstyle.

 

[Woody]

I respect the idea and its honestly not a bad one. I would be all for it if it didn't even further benefit a heavy armor/heavy weapon meta.

This game desperately needs benefits of lighter weight armors and this is a step in the wrong direction.

I appreciate that and I agree that in the game's current state, this would buff heavy armor usage further - no doubt about it. I do think light armours need more love outside the plate realm and outside this idea, absolutely - and I hope there's a way this can be achieved sensibly. As @Kelzyr mentioned above, perhaps a slight movement speed penalty above 4-6kg? I'm not entirely sure.

I also like it, but it should be the other way around. Light weight armors should get the advantage, not heavy ones.

The reason why armor weight has been used in this calculation is because it's the most logical way to directly attribute this to the melee foot fighter/tank playstyle. It simulates the feeling that armour allows you to shrug off more blows in combat. Further to this though and in anticipation of alternative melee playstyles that might utilise lighter armours and speed, I made it so Dex was the base contribution to the Poise value assuming Dex would be of high value for those kinds of lighter/mobility builds. Coupled with the aforementioned movement speed penalty to heavier weights of armour and this could be workable?

this would make getting focused on an almost guaranteed death sentence. Not only are you getting hit by multiple enemies, but now you get punished further and have to eat a bunch of damage without being able to block or parry. You literally have to stand there and take a bunch of damage completely helplessly. It will simply become a race to whom can focus the most people onto 1 target and spam attacks to trigger the poise cap. Not the least bit fun.

You need to read the post again. The effect of being staggered only prevents a new swing or block occuring for 0.5 seconds to simulate the event of the stagger, and for 3 seconds makes your [Parry] (which is 100% damage reduction) -> [Block](which is some damage bleeds through).

 

[MolagAmur]

It is pretty insane that a player in heavy plate armor can move at the same speed as a naked person. If you slowly started getting penalties over 4kg it would be a game changer. They don't need to be large penalties of course, but just enough to make scale/leather armored warriors feel more agile and give them a proper role.

I doubt that'll ever happen though. I've asked Henrik so many times to give incentive for medium armors and he says "we have some balance changes coming in the future".

 

[Woody]

It is pretty insane that a player in heavy plate armor can move at the same speed as a naked person. If you slowly started getting penalties over 4kg it would be a game changer. They don't need to be large penalties of course, but just enough to make scale/leather armored warriors feel more agile and give them a proper role.

I doubt that'll ever happen though. I've asked Henrik so many times to give incentive for medium armors and he says "we have some balance changes coming in the future".

100%. Even -1cm speed per every 1kg of Armor weight above 6kg would still feel okay imo.

 

[Rhias]

It is pretty insane that a player in heavy plate armor can move at the same speed as a naked person. If you slowly started getting penalties over 4kg it would be a game changer. They don't need to be large penalties of course, but just enough to make scale/leather armored warriors feel more agile and give them a proper role.

I doubt that'll ever happen though. I've asked Henrik so many times to give incentive for medium armors and he says "we have some balance changes coming in the future".

Also the jumping & stam penalty starts too late. With heavy armor training at starts at ~16kg. So no reason as a foot fighter to wear anything lighter...

 

[Rhias]

The reason why armor weight has been used in this calculation is because it's the most logical way to directly attribute this to the melee foot fighter/tank playstyle. It simulates the feeling that armour allows you to shrug off more blows in combat. Further to this though and in anticipation of alternative melee playstyles that might utilise lighter armours and speed, I made it so Dex was the base contribution to the Poise value assuming Dex would be of high value for those kinds of lighter/mobility builds. Coupled with the aforementioned movement speed penalty to heavier weights of armour and this could be workable?

A parry is basically blocking the weapon without it touching you/your armor. A person without an armor would have more endurance blocking things, than a person with armor, because he does not need to move the whole armor weight while blocking.

 

[Woody]

A parry is basically blocking the weapon without it touching you/your armor. A person without an armor would have more endurance blocking things, than a person with armor, because he does not need to move the whole armor weight while blocking.

Yup I realised this and initially I toyed with parrying reducing poise damage by 50% and block by 25%. It boils down to the fact that the game mechanics trump realism & absolute logic in the implementation. Perhaps this reduction to poise damage could still be considered in the mix and serve as a slight reward for parrying properly.

 

[Nefnate]

Problem

There is no natural way to break through a parry of a perfectly capable defensive player. Furthermore, being a networked game, the suggested solutions of "kicks" or "special attacks" that aim to partially solve this are limited by animations, desync and varying pings.

Solution

The game requires a parry break effect that can occur naturally throughout the fight, and not simply through an action that needs to be synchronised across varying pings.

I suggest we look at a Poise-like mechanic that creates vulnerability windows during longer fights of equally skilled opponents.

Poise
The idea is that every player has a poise cap that is visible in their statistics. Their current poise during a fight however, is a hidden value. The idea of Poise is that the heavier your Armor, the more poise you get to play with before your [Parry] become [Blocks], benefiting foot fighters.

Poise = 5% of Dex + Equipped Armor weight + 0-10% via "Stagger Resistance"
Stagger Resistance would be a new primary skill under Balance

For each melee attack made against you, parry, block or hit, you will take poise damage.

Poise will only regenerate after 3 secs of not being struck in any form by melee or ranged attacks (note ranged doesn't cause poise damage).

Upon recovery, poise instantly refills to the % amount of stamina you currently have. E.g. if you have 75% stamina at the point of recovery, you will get 75% of your total poise pool. If your stamina increases after this point, your poise will continue to increase alongside stamina. It will stop regenerating if stamina drops below it's current %. If your stamina was below your poise, poise will stay the same.

When your poise reaches 0, you will visibly stagger for 0.5 seconds and for that time will be unable to start a new attack or parry. Additionally, for 3 seconds your [Parry] become [Block], at which point your poise instantly refills to your current stamina %.

Poise damage is calculated based on the weight of the weapon, and the charge time held of the attack:

Weapon weight	Charge Time	Poise Damage Taken (weapon weight)
4kg	100%	4
4kg	50%	2
4kg	25%	1
4kg	120%	4.8
2kg	75%	1.5
2kg	25%	0.5

Pros

• Targets foot fighters given the large contribution from armor weight.
• Disincentives walling up and simply playing too defensive.
• Charge time variable makes it so quick attack/spam does less poise damage.
• The poise recovery timer of 3 seconds encourages the player to go on the offensive in order to force their opponent to defend for a period.
  • This gives them both a chance to recover poise while also keeping their opponents poise in check.
• Scales off weapon weight/speed.
• Gives further value and importance to stamina management throughout a fight.
• Simply running away to trigger the poise timer is less effective due to stamina being a limiting factor.
• Magic doesn't impact poise.
• Naked's with a basic sword will have very low Poise making them stagger more frequently, which counters this frustrating aspect of the game.

Cons

• Stagger could feel clunky if the visible stagger isn't done correctly.
• Less reactional control as to when you as a player get "staggered" given it's a stat based system and not a push, kick etc.
• Not knowing your current poise might be too frustrating.
• This would increase the disparity between light and heavy armors more with the game's current state.

Thoughts? Workable?

I like the idea of a poise system. My version would be much more simple, and less hardcore. Your system is extemely punishing and I feel would not be fun to play outside of tight 1v1's.

Similarly to how stamina works, a 4th bar could be added to our HUD. It would regenerate over time when NOT blocking. Each Parry and Block would lower it. Parries would lower it more than a block. At zero, you lose the ability to parry.

So long as it were balanced to feel fair, I think it could work. It would also add more merit to using shields, for more block power, if you are not great at managing your poise.

This would promote a more balanced, skilled fighting meta. Even in group play. There would be more tug of war between offence and defence.

You could take a lot of your work (or similar) and apply it to this simpler system. People don't like things that feel like RNG, they like control. Having a tangible bar to work with over a partially invisible stat sounds superior to me.

 

[Woody]

Similarly to how stamina works, a 4th bar could be added to our HUD. It would regenerate over time when NOT blocking. Each Parry and Block would lower it. Parries would lower it more than a block. At zero, you lose the ability to parry.

I thought about this too, where the bar becomes visible only when your poise is reduced below 100%, so if a visible bar necessary to make it feel like a manageable system, absolutely.

I also tried working in a passive recovery mechanic into the idea but realised it needed to be an instant recovery mechanic as without it you get stun locked/parry disabled and this ends up feeling worse. You can also look at the 3 second recovery mechanic as taking a step back to regain your composure in a fight. This would be an instantaneous recovery not some gradual process.

Also I'm not sure if you've got this around the wrong way, but blocks would obviously need to be more punishing than parries in the context of how blocks work in game.

I disagree with fully losing the ability to parry/block, this is too punishing. We need to allow the player to still play, thus the [Parry] => [Block] mechanic.

So long as it were balanced to feel fair, I think it could work. It would also add more merit to using shields, for more block power, if you are not great at managing your poise.

I hadn't fully considered how shields would come into the mix. Initially I did include poise damage reduction dependent on [Parry] = 50% reduced, [Block] = 25% and [Equipment] = 10%. Perhaps this could be the benefit of a shield in the natural form of more frequent equipment hits.