NPC town black list Yes/No

[Tzone]

I think Blacklisting as a function was harmful only because the system was incomplete. Such a system cannot and should not be attempted without realizing the vision in its entirety. Blacklisting was incredibly useful for giving guilds the ability to exert dominion over their claimed territory and for dealing with griefers, thieves, and enemy blue-flagged meat shields. It was also useful for securing resources rights in their area by targetting non-guild miners and non-guild farmers and woodcutters.

That said, a function that was missing was the ability to toggle, codify, and in effect make your own laws, and elevate your own people to that as enforcers of your guild's law. What sucked was having your guild have to abide by Tindremic or Khurite Law when in effect you owned the town. But even if you owned the town, attacking or dealing with random blues, thieves, etc, or even hitting an NPC or a pet would flag your own men grey, to be targeted by the local guards.

That is what was harmful, the inconsistencies, flaws, and incomplete design of the feature itself, not the inherent concept.

Those are not my concern, my concern is larger guilds using it to protect them selves from PvP and for them to grief individuals or smaller guilds. The only way to fight these zergs that wont come out to PvP untill they have 2 to 3 times your numbers is to get them when they arent ready.

One major flaw is that they can target member of a enemy guild one at a time in town with black listing. If the 10 man guerilla force is defeating the zerg then they could just black list the stronger players or the leaders to cause the group to break up.

Having laws to "complete" the system doesnt adress the issues of the systems for the people getting targeted by the bigger guild.

If they were going to have a system then the guards shouldnt be involved in the fighting. Either just allow them to turn off guards which still has the issue of zerg massing up force before hand and then leaving/logging when they dont have the zerg on anymore. Or have war decs. War decs if allowed agaisnt a individual would allow what ever keep owner the ability to protect their town with out having guards protect them. If they are strong enought to get a keep then it should not be a issue for them to protect the city. You could even give them war dec discounts. You will then have players protecting towns instead of guards protecting the zergs.

 

[ThaBadMan]

I think Blacklisting as a function was harmful only because the system was incomplete. Such a system cannot and should not be attempted without realizing the vision in its entirety. Blacklisting was incredibly useful for giving guilds the ability to exert dominion over their claimed territory and for dealing with griefers, thieves, and enemy blue-flagged meat shields. It was also useful for securing resources rights in their area by targetting non-guild miners and non-guild farmers and woodcutters.

That said, a function that was missing was the ability to toggle, codify, and in effect make your own laws, and elevate your own people to that as enforcers of your guild's law. What sucked was having your guild have to abide by Tindremic or Khurite Law when in effect you owned the town. But even if you owned the town, attacking or dealing with random blues, thieves, etc, or even hitting an NPC or a pet would flag your own men grey, to be targeted by the local guards.

That is what was harmful, the inconsistencies, flaws, and incomplete design of the feature itself, not the inherent concept.

Pretty much this. Even a guild leader so in effect the sole ruler of a town would be hunted down by his own garrison guards if he wanted immediate action in the moment vs a griefer/thief/etc.
Also I feel blacklisting was too limiting, you could only do individuals, not guilds and alliances and unless they changed it you had a certain amount of spots. Imagine that, being a ruler and being limited by your subjects "nonono MR.KingGodEmperor only 50 guys at one time".

 

[Konrad]

so many tears in here.... , those are the groups that complain about blacklisting:
1. griefers
2. small asshole guilds rpk/griefers that don't plan on owning anything and/or know everything they build will get blown up because they pissed off every major guild on every part of the map
3. players and guilds that plan on living in the areas/towns without guards; Kranesh/GK mainly and like to grief in other towns + cant use blacklist feature

Its the exact same freaking people that been crying about blacklisting for years, and not because they couldnt buy a book its because they were not allowed to be dicks xD you dont want to be blacklisted ? cool... maybe dont piss everyone off and think you can just come to someones town and swing your dick around thinking you cant get hit, another option try diplomacy instead of once again being a dick and shittalking on every platform that someone is using a game feature, here here another option, build something yourself collect boulders TRY to make some friends siege the place and than build on top of it ? try to control that town yourself and see how OP, rewarding and easy it is to control a town lmao SPOILER ALERT its freaking not easy and its not rewarding for shit, blacklisting and/or option to turn on/off guards is the only thing that makes town control actually rewarding, everything else is pain.

 

[LordMega]

My vote is allow turning guards off with a 24 hour cool down on the toggle. Allowing people to blacklist someone out of a town with lictors involved sounds like a great way to destroy population.

I'm in favor of this as well. However I have never really liked Lictors. I don't think they should be in every town. A teleporting guard that 1-2 shots everyone in the game is so antithetical to making the game a "PvP Freedom" type game in the first place. Sure, Lictors can have their place.. maybe deep inside Tindrem and MK and nowhere else, I'd be fine with that. As is, though, they just hinder any criminal action that happens to be even somewhat close to a town.

Back on topic: If you don't have a way to keep unwanted people out of your town (either through PvP or game mechanics), then you don't really own that town at all, do you? What then would be the difference between building a keep next to "your" town and a keep in the middle of nowhere that holds no town? Taxes? Psh. If your worst enemy can seek refuge in "your" town, that's dumb. But yes, this "turn off guards" option is the preferred one, because I think that powerful guard NPCs are antithetical to a true sandbox experience in the first place - to some degree. Because then it's the guard's town, not your town.

 

[Jybwee]

I want guilds to have total control.... just my 2 cents -

Previously when this argument came out i always stopped short of letting a governing guild take over SV placed guards. They were (literally) placed by a higher power to serve basic common law. And if you want to RP a political/dogmatic purpose for those guards, great.

BUT in MO2 i think we need to envision the game along with how SV is envisioning it. Which means a few things to me -
TC/Housing being a huge part of the game
Regional reputation
Much higher population

I can imagine a scenario with full guild control -

After a days long battle a rival guild takes over a city.
Town crier and the bulletin board had given warning for long enough.
Sure, people would be inconvenienced. Player exodus to the hills.
Players logging in. They're likely dead, at least once. Once if they understand what happened. Give 'em a tooltip
I know Bak Ti, Vadda, and Mohki have SV priests pretty close outside the city.
Maybe player made priests/banks/tables to serve as retreat points. Smaller player-made (open and functioning) cities to connect SV ones.

Cries on social media #BaktiDefenseNow
The southern alliance must hold!

RP prophets predicting salvation. RPK guilds intent on anarchy. Protectors urging the peaceful that vengeance is at hand.

At this point in MO2's development i'm completely for Governing Guilds having total control over their territory. With good tooltips and immersive features so that a random player can gain info on hostile takeovers from in-game features. And a social media player can play politics and generals.

Then we can start picturing an SV-imagined realization of an alliances and how that would work in relation to this.

But also while we're talking blacklists and Governing Guilds control, How about -
Crafting table fees?
Mailing fees?
Stable fees?
NPC and TC taxes of course
Broker taxes?
Some sort of passive regional income?
Immunity from guards?


I wonder if someone more creative can come up with laws/AI controls.

 

[Rorry]

I want guilds to have total control.... just my 2 cents -

Previously when this argument came out i always stopped short of letting a governing guild take over SV placed guards. They were (literally) placed by a higher power to serve basic common law. And if you want to RP a political/dogmatic purpose for those guards, great.

BUT in MO2 i think we need to envision the game along with how SV is envisioning it. Which means a few things to me -
TC/Housing being a huge part of the game
Regional reputation
Much higher population

I can imagine a scenario with full guild control -

After a days long battle a rival guild takes over a city.
Town crier and the bulletin board had given warning for long enough.
Sure, people would be inconvenienced. Player exodus to the hills.
Players logging in. They're likely dead, at least once. Once if they understand what happened. Give 'em a tooltip
I know Bak Ti, Vadda, and Mohki have SV priests pretty close outside the city.
Maybe player made priests/banks/tables to serve as retreat points. Smaller player-made (open and functioning) cities to connect SV ones.

Cries on social media #BaktiDefenseNow
The southern alliance must hold!

RP prophets predicting salvation. RPK guilds intent on anarchy. Protectors urging the peaceful that vengeance is at hand.

At this point in MO2's development i'm completely for Governing Guilds having total control over their territory. With good tooltips and immersive features so that a random player can gain info on hostile takeovers from in-game features. And a social media player can play politics and generals.

Then we can start picturing an SV-imagined realization of an alliances and how that would work in relation to this.

But also while we're talking blacklists and Governing Guilds control, How about -
Crafting table fees?
Mailing fees?
Stable fees?
NPC and TC taxes of course
Broker taxes?
Some sort of passive regional income?
Immunity from guards?


I wonder if someone more creative can come up with laws/AI controls.

You make it sound waaaaay more interesting than it was. Controlling towns was done by building, not fights or politics or anything interesting like that. Building was easier than destroying so you just build, then slap down some guards and it was so uninteresting to siege that most groups wouldn't bother because about the only control option you got from owning a town was to switch off the guards. The blacklist was used some, but it had a very low capacity so couldn't affect many people at once.
SV kept it very limited, I suspect, because they didn't want to have the unprofitable situation where the entire controllable map was owned by one alliance who could shut everyone else out.
It remains to be seen what it will be in MO2. There has been an awful lot of copy/pasting so far though.

 

[Morpheus]

Alright, this thread has a bit of an issue with getting off topic. I was really thinking about locking it earlier today, but we got some great input before some more stray posts, so I really think this thread might be on a good track. But, take this as a warning, any off topic posts from here on out WILL result in an instant thread ban or further escalation if necessary. If you have to guess "is this off topic?", it's probably safe to assume it is. And as a note, a response to an off topic post that isn't addressing the thread topic will also be considered off topic.

Keep up the good discussions guys, I really like the back and forth here, and even if it might be a bit repetitious, it is nice to see everyone having such discourse on what can be a bit of a hot topic in the community. Keep up the good work!
- Mod Morpheus

 

[Anabolic Man]

Does the community want black listing to be a thing for NPC towns like the ones owned by tind empire or MK empire. Examples are Fab, vadda, medudu, bahkti, both capitals, ect...

Black listing is where the owner of a town which is a guild who won the town, sets the guards to attack certain people on sight.

I personally think it favors zerg guilds as they can own the town using a big zerg in a concentrated time and then black list their enemies who would normally fight them with hit and runs. Most of the bigger/zerg guilds can only keep numbers high for short periods of time. They need to ping discord and wait upto a hour for numbers, or they preset a time for the PvP. They normally cant respond fast enought to get people to come zerg smaller guilds in the moment. Having guards will prevent players from staging in towns to harrass the larger guilds which is the main way of combating them by whittling down their numbers and moral.

Black listing also in my veiw harms the community as people can force players out of the game or mass target indivuals for harrasment to greif them out of the game. It is mainly a power used to protect the powerfull.

I dont think non player towns should have a black list. Player towns can set the rules for their own guards.

Blacklisting Thievs and Grifers is an important Part of the Game. What have to be changed is the wartag System from MO1 which is not in game yet.
This time we get gambling games and Roleplayers want to use the Tavern to play those games and so on. My recommendation is the following.

Smaller Guilds should be able to wartag bigger Guilds without they getting a Massage,
in which they are asked whether they want to accept the war.

Bigger Guilds should be able to wartag a smaller Guild, but in this case they
should be asked whether they would like to accept the war.

It should take at least 8 hours before the declaration of war becomes active.

It would be bad for the game if large PVP guilds could declare war on the smaller PVE and Roleplayer Guilds and if the war would to become active immediatly.

The possibility of blacklisting individual griefers is sufficient.

I would like a Chaos/Order System like in UO. That you have different Factions which a Guild leader or Player without a guild could
join. Any player from a different faction should be flagged orange.

I think that any guild with a keep should automatically be at war with the other guilds that also have a keep. Otherwise every PVP player would blush at some point. The guilds with keeps should not be allowed to give each other murder counts.

 

[Tzone]

Blacklisting Thievs and Grifers is an important Part of the Game. What have to be changed is the wartag System from MO1 which is not in game yet.
This time we get gambling games and Roleplayers want to use the Tavern to play those games and so on. My recommendation is the following.

Smaller Guilds should be able to wartag bigger Guilds without they getting a Massage,
in which they are asked whether they want to accept the war.

Bigger Guilds should be able to wartag a smaller Guild, but in this case they
should be asked whether they would like to accept the war.

It should take at least 8 hours before the declaration of war becomes active.

It would be bad for the game if large PVP guilds could declare war on the smaller PVE and Roleplayer Guilds and if the war would to become active immediatly.

The possibility of blacklisting individual griefers is sufficient.

I would like a Chaos/Order System like in UO. That you have different Factions which a Guild leader or Player without a guild could
join. Any player from a different faction should be flagged orange.

I think that any guild with a keep should automatically be at war with the other guilds that also have a keep. Otherwise every PVP player would blush at some point. The guilds with keeps should not be allowed to give each other murder counts.

From what Ive seen big guilds who would have access to black list are greifer guilds that call others greifers. They already black list people who are not greifers. Black listing will be used for political and war purposes to make the holding guild stronger. It will allow them to remove protections from their enemies and even have guards fight for them.

We already have examples of this in meduli of the bigger guilds claim other guilds are "rat" guilds or greifers as a attempt to legitimize their player enforced blacklist.
If this is a player made content game, then let the town owners who own the town keep the peace instead of passing it off to guards to fight for them.

Black list is for guilds that want all the benefits of owning a town when they zerg it down once with minimal effort, but they dont want to put in the work to own it long term.

Its pretty much a grief mechanic for zerg guilds. If people dont like griefers then move to a player made city or implement a many of other systems like town rep or just allow the owner to turn off guards for long periods of time.

 

[Anabolic Man]

From what Ive seen big guilds who would have access to black list are greifer guilds that call others greifers. They already black list people who are not greifers. Black listing will be used for political and war purposes to make the holding guild stronger. It will allow them to remove protections from their enemies and even have guards fight for them.

We already have examples of this in meduli of the bigger guilds claim other guilds are "rat" guilds or greifers as a attempt to legitimize their player enforced blacklist.
If this is a player made content game, then let the town owners who own the town keep the peace instead of passing it off to guards to fight for them.

Black list is for guilds that want all the benefits of owning a town when they zerg it down once with minimal effort, but they dont want to put in the work to own it long term.

Its pretty much a grief mechanic for zerg guilds. If people dont like griefers then move to a player made city or implement a many of other systems like town rep or just allow the owner to turn off guards for long periods of time.

You can only blacklist individual people and that costs a lot of points.
To do this, you have to own a keep and expand the territory.
This is an important mechanic! If the ruler of a town is an asshole you need to take away the controll by destoying the controll tower. In MO2 this will be outpots i guess.

 

[Konrad]

From what Ive seen big guilds who would have access to black list are greifer guilds that call others greifers. They already black list people who are not greifers. Black listing will be used for political and war purposes to make the holding guild stronger. It will allow them to remove protections from their enemies and even have guards fight for them.

We already have examples of this in meduli of the bigger guilds claim other guilds are "rat" guilds or greifers as a attempt to legitimize their player enforced blacklist.
If this is a player made content game, then let the town owners who own the town keep the peace instead of passing it off to guards to fight for them.

Black list is for guilds that want all the benefits of owning a town when they zerg it down once with minimal effort, but they dont want to put in the work to own it long term.

Its pretty much a grief mechanic for zerg guilds. If people dont like griefers then move to a player made city or implement a many of other systems like town rep or just allow the owner to turn off guards for long periods of time.

Tzone stop going off topic please and pushing your anti KotO agenda and propaganda using funny examples throughout the topic, you are constantly crying about 'big zerg griefer guilds', and the only examples you give are the guilds that blacklisted/shitlisted you personally and your friends because you started shit with them or you are simply at war with them, there is no neutrality or sense in your statements as your entire reasoning for your hate on blacklisting is that YOU WILL get blacklisted yourself by many major guilds in-game because you are in-fact a shitter and a griefer. You are giving an example of a city that is in-fact actively supporting trade by protecting the roads and help to trader guilds, noobs -> by providing them with basic gear, game knowledge, explanation of mechanics, etc., also all peaceful meduli citizens that are not attempting griefing on other citizens are held with respect and are given free security and help. Shitters and griefers are in-fact called rats as you mentioned them and are exterminated like all rats should be. Guards do not protect 'big zerg griefer guilds' as you call every major guild in the game that kills you, they protect YOU a rat that will in-fact kill a noob in GY -> go for a swim and than hide in the guard zone protected by guards where the 'big zerg griefer guild' that wants to kill you and give back the gear to the poor noob cant do shit because of guards, blacklisting will delete that problem as small shitters that only want to grief in town and be protected by guards wont be able to do so anymore, and trust me in Meduli we will be very happy with either of the options whether that is using a blacklisting system or being able to turn off guards, blacklisting is just more comfortable option were we are not forced to camp the priest etc to 'police' the town, either way griefers are out. Stop bitching about you getting killed and hiding in the guard zone and crying about the system that will affect YOU negatively and not the majority of players, as the majority of players in MEDULI as you used it as an example would be very happy about that system, you are you using Meduli as an example and you dont even live there you place your griefer account in there to annoy citizens and harass noobs.

"Black list is for guilds that want all the benefits of owning a town when they zerg it down once with minimal effort, but they dont want to put in the work to own it long term." - zerg it down once ? what ?, do you even understand what needs to get done to even have the blacklisting option available ?
from your words it seems as organising and running a big guild is easy, and it is even easier to build a keep, build it up, place TC towers and take control of a town, like yeah its just 'zerg it once' and you own a town, trust me every guild that is going to sacrifice 100s of hours in the game to take a strong hold of a town wants to keep it long term, and us the players that sacrifice so much time in-game should be rewarded with town systems that benefit us, if you own a town you are THE OWNER and guards work for YOU not some random shitter rat, you dont want to get shitlisted ? cool dont be a dick and stop griefing in that area, you f**** up ? ok speak with the guild that owns the territory and beg for forgiveness.

 

[Kuthara]

I think you need to take a lot of what is being said in here with a pinch of salt. Especially by some people who are trying to push an agenda because they know what is coming and want to dodge the repercussions of being an ass hat for the last few months.

The person who started this thread 'T-Zone' I have never seen in armour. His entire game play basis seems to be around sitting naked in town and shooting horses. I am more than happy for him to do that as it is an allowed mechanic. However behaviour like that should have consequences and black listing is one of them. It allows the local dominant guild to take control and remove these individuals from the security blanket of the Guardzone which they hide behind.

Guilds should be able to control areas of territory, it is in the name 'Territory Control'. It takes a lot of effort to gain control of a town (If it is like it was in MO1) as well as resources and upkeep. It requires dedication, coordination and a big investment. One perk of that should be that they have some control of the area within their territory including the towns. Black Listing does not need to be that the Guards do all the work for the players. It could be that the blacklist turns those on it local grey for the controlling Guild. Allowing them to doll out their justice inside the Guardzone themselves.

 

[Skull507]

That is untrue. By the end of MO1 they just stayed pending forever if the other guild didn't accept them.


You want ai to fight for you, maybe this isn't the game for you.


You misunderstand the system. Only a guild that controls a keep can control a town. Blacklisting favors large guilds, and an unlimited blacklist could be used to keep everyone except the large guild from using a town. Potentially keeping a smaller guild from accessing their stuff in a place that they have lived for years.


A guild who owns a town should be able to attack people without guards interference, and those people should be able to fight back.

On Stream Henrik talked about that and how bad that system was . He also mentioned it would be nothing like that and guilds will not be able to just leave it pending.

 

[Erwinicus]

Players should not own the default NPC towns imo, if a clan wants a town they should have to build it. Having some big ego zerg lord control each town would be a very bad thing.

 

[ThaBadMan]

Players should not own the default NPC towns imo, if a clan wants a town they should have to build it. Having some big ego zerg lord control each town would be a very bad thing.

Default towns are enough towns for Myrland. Keep spots is enough plague on the land.

But influencing the game world through player actions and prowess creates really unique gameplay made by players and not artificial systems or dev work.
Hand the tools with a sturdy frame and the players can do the rest.

 

[Konrad]

Players should not own the default NPC towns imo, if a clan wants a town they should have to build it. Having some big ego zerg lord control each town would be a very bad thing.

Entire content and reason we actually played mo1 was because those features were there lol, territory control and control of towns is the end game without it there is no game lol

 

[ThaBadMan]

Entire content and reason we actually played mo1 was because those features were there lol, territory control and control of towns is the end game without it there is no game lol

I always thought we played(supported) it for the future potential we where falsely sold.

 

[Tzone]

Entire content and reason we actually played mo1 was because those features were there lol, territory control and control of towns is the end game without it there is no game lol

That is one reason MO1 failed. Catered to one group of players to keep them from quiting while ruining the game.

If SV wants to keep players this time and get more they need to not empower zergs this time. Power will just keep snowballing making a few large guilds extreamly safe in their current position choking out player diversity and lowering the total population.

MO2 has potential to attract a lot of people from the competive slasher community if they have the right game design direction.

 

[ThaBadMan]

That is one reason MO1 failed. Catered to one group of players to keep them from quiting while ruining the game.

If SV wants to keep players this time and get more they need to not empower zergs this time. Power will just keep snowballing making a few large guilds extreamly safe in their current position choking out player diversity and lowering the total population.

MO2 has potential to attract a lot of people from the competive slasher community if they have the right game design direction.

According to Henrik, that is not the intended audience since that community is too niche

 

[Kebek]

You want ai to fight for you, maybe this isn't the game for you.

If you have an issue with guarded towns where guards attack the people that are hostile to its owner, maybe this isn't the game for you.
Nobody is asking for guards to go out and fight wars so that's some nice hyperbole. Guards need to continue doing what they do once their owner switches from AI to player: attack people detested by the owner.