New way to progress skills in MO2

[Kelzyr]

DISCLAMER: I was going to post this as a comment on this thread (https://mortalonline2.com/forums/threads/suggestions-for-skill-progression-in-mo2.495/) but I felt for as long as my post became it might be better as its own thread.

I think the way skills are in the game now (0-100) will always lead to someone macroing because the way gamers work now is get to the end game as fast as possible and in this game's case its macroing. No form of increasing how fast you get skills or how little the difference is from 0-100 becomes will change the fact that most competitive people will macro their skills to get them to 100 as fast as possible, because why be at a disadvantage to someone.

I think that progression is paramount for an MMORPG, but most games don't make it fun/immersive, its mostly tedious and grueling. I don't know if there is a way to make it fun for everyone, but my friends and I have thought up of a way to make it a little less boring and hopefully more immersive.

This suggestion will pretty drastically change how skills are obtained.

I suggest skills should not be able to be leveled through repetitive tasks...ie spurting yourself in the face (or even thunderlashing), crafting a bunch of spongewood weapons, running back and forth for hours, etc. The only way to level these skills is through going through a 'quest line' of sorts. What these 'quests' would entail would be tasks related to the skill you are trying to advance.

Example: Athletics & Breathing Technique
Say every new player starts in the game in the starter zone and the first npc they interact with (there needs to be something basically compelling them to talk to this npc) is a courier. The courier tells you to go run around a track or go deliver some notes or some other task to get you running and then return to him. When you complete this your skill in Athletics from not existing to 33 points. The courier then gives you a hint on where to go to advance your skill further, maybe he learned his breathing techniques in Vadda and says his trainer was there, this will also show the breathing technique skill in your skill tree but it will be 0. This gives you the next step to increase your skill. You then go to Vadda and talk to the courier's trainer and he gives you another task to do more running and after you complete his task you increase to 66 in Athletics and 50 in Breathing Technique. This could continue maybe another 1 to 3 times around various parts of the map until you hit 100 in the skill.

I think that the primary (root) skills should be 3-5 step 'quests' taking you from trainer to trainer across the map (within reason) as you increase your skill. All of the secondary (advanced) skills should be 1-3 steps, I would argue 1 step for most just to ease up on the development cost on creating all the tasks. These 'quests' should invite people to travel the world to get comfortable with the map, require you to do something in the world, and pretty quickly advance your character.

I do not think that there should be some random exclamation mark over the npc's name, the players should be informed in the starter zone that you will need to talk to npcs to collect hints on who/where to go to to level up your skills. This echo's how the original Everquest did its questing system, running around 'Hail'-ing all the npcs till one talked to you and gave you a task, though instead of items as rewards it will be skills.

I also do not think that all skills should be given easy hints...the more advanced or more scarce the skills are desired to be the more vague the hints should be. For example necromancy could be hinted at from local villagers saying they've seen undead coming from the jungle, prompting you to explore the jungle for the source of the undead (a necromancer) which would start your 'quest' to learn necromancy.

I know that this may seem like a large undertaking on the developer's part, but I think this would be the most effective way to give a more interactive way of progressing your character and completely rules macros out of the question. I fully acknowledge the fact that this will turn the character development into a somewhat longer task as you will have to travel around a much larger world, but with only one character available to each account I don't think that should be much of a problem.

TLDR:
Skills should not be advanced through repetitive small incremental actions.
Skills should be advanced through NPC dialog/task driven actions.

EDIT: changed primary skills from 1 step to 3-5 steps with incremental gains for each step. This was decided so that the current system for attributes to affect skills can stay in effect and allow people to make interesting builds.

EDIT: After getting some pushback I think a more reasonable system would be to place this system alongside the current system while implementing a diminishing returns effect when performing the same skill over too short of a period of time (limit the effects of macroing). I still think that these tasks should be a faster way to progress your character's skills than just macroing even with the addition of diminishing returns. This should allow the people who want to just go out and explore the world to still level up as they go, as there is nothing forcing them to interact with the NPCs that could give them hits/tasks to advance their skill. Adding this system it allows people who want to progress their character faster a way to do it other than macroing.
I will stress that I think these tasks should give a significant amount (20+) skill points so that it becomes the most efficient way of advancing your skills. My goal is to disincentivise macroing and I haven't heard another alternative as of yet.

 

[MolagAmur]

I like this idea. Instead of having everyone afk in towns macroing up skills for hours on end...you could replace it with people having to go out and do tasks like you suggest. It would get people out into the world. It was really interesting how discovering Necromancy was. We had to do this kinda hidden quest chain thing and it was extremely interesting.

Then I remember sitting on the shore prower beach and having to thrown thousands of stacks of carcass in to level up my Necromancy skill. It was the most boring and repetitive system in the world. Literally just having to grind up a skill by repeating it over and over again. The same thing with making a bunch of wooden swords and attacking someone with a macro, or getting a stack of spongewood and crafting 5000 weapon hilts to level up the skill. Point is that kind of progression is not fun at all. There needs to be better and more interesting ways to level up skills. At least as long as the tasks would get your skills up to say 50 or 75 where they would be effective, then the last few points would need to be manually leveled to master it.

Also if anyone has played Tarkov. They had a really interested diminishing returns system added to skills to prevent people from leveling them up too fast. That could work really well in Mortal honestly and would give that feel that you actually need to play the game often and actually level up by playing the game rather than a quick boost to the max level.

 

[Eldrath]

I like the learning by doing approach and the freedom it entails. I don´t like being forced into doing quests to aquire skills. Makes me feel like some sort of empire lackey.

If they fixed the skill gain and introduced diminishing returns on level above 70 it should be possible to raise all skills by playing the game as intended.

Especially considering we will only have one character per account. So it´s not like you have to level breathing technique more than once.

Edit:
I guess it wouldn´t hurt to point out what I mean by "fix"

Experience gain in any skill is tied to the amount damage you do. In crafting it is tied to the amount of durability you create, or a combination of the defense/attack values of the item. Movement skills should level up quite fast and don´t increase actual movement speed over 80/90.

Now if you wanted to make becoming a "master" harder you could say that you have to deal X damage 10 times to gain 1 skillpoint above 90.

 

[Kelzyr]

I like the learning by doing approach and the freedom it entails. I don´t like being forced into doing quests to aquire skills. Makes me feel like some sort of empire lackey.

If they fixed the skill gain and introduced diminishing returns on level above 70 it should be possible to raise all skills by playing the game as intended.

Especially considering we will only have one character per account. So it´s not like you have to level breathing technique more than once.

Edit:
I guess it wouldn´t hurt to point out what I mean by "fix"

Experience gain in any skill is tied to the amount damage you do. In crafting it is tied to the amount of durability you create, or a combination of the defense/attack values of the item. Movement skills should level up quite fast and don´t increase actual movement speed over 80/90.

Now if you wanted to make becoming a "master" harder you could say that you have to deal X damage 10 times to gain 1 skillpoint above 90.

I would argue this system would give a more structured approach to 'learning by doing'. If you read my example the 'quests' or tasks given from the courier would involve you running around, which is what you'd do to level up athletics. The same would apply to things like leveling your crafting or leveling your archery; you would craft some weapons or kill some mobs with a bow, etc.

I get that some people would not like the idea of questing or doing tasks. I can live with a middle ground where you get the majority of your skills through the 'quests'/tasks then master the skill through playing the game using the diminishing returns model.

If you really think that macroing a character to run back and forth while sprinting is learning by doing then I wholeheartedly disagree. I don't think that adding diminishing returns will force players to play the game as intended, you'll simply increase the time it takes for them to macro their character from 0-100.

I think you would want to consider the new player experience as well. If you make the game in a way that doesn't give some sort of structure they will be less likely to stick around for long. Giving people tasks or hints on things to do to progress their character will give them a path on how to level their skills other than telling them, oh go kill bush pigs for 6 hours with a worn shortsword to level your swords skill.

 

[MolagAmur]

I like the learning by doing approach and the freedom it entails. I don´t like being forced into doing quests to aquire skills.

Instead you're forced into macroing or repeating something over and over and over again. Lets not even use the "but you don't have to do that if you dont want to" argument. Realistically people are going to want skills leveled as fast as can be. If there was some way to have a system that gave you the organic experience of learning by doing...then it would be fine. I don't see how that can work though.

 

[Pierre]

I like the learning by doing approach and the freedom it entails. I don´t like being forced into doing quests to aquire skills. Makes me feel like some sort of empire lackey.

If they fixed the skill gain and introduced diminishing returns on level above 70 it should be possible to raise all skills by playing the game as intended.

Especially considering we will only have one character per account. So it´s not like you have to level breathing technique more than once.

Edit:
I guess it wouldn´t hurt to point out what I mean by "fix"

Experience gain in any skill is tied to the amount damage you do. In crafting it is tied to the amount of durability you create, or a combination of the defense/attack values of the item. Movement skills should level up quite fast and don´t increase actual movement speed over 80/90.

Now if you wanted to make becoming a "master" harder you could say that you have to deal X damage 10 times to gain 1 skillpoint above 90.

The ideas Kelzyr is suggesting should not be lumped into the category of quests but rather tasks. These tasks are akin to, say, Arx Meridius telling a new player he can go kill walker heads at the graveyard for money and equipment, or bringing Thorax heads to unlock the Dracogenica Armatus book. Except, instead of running around Nave killing things, you are just running around Nave meeting new NPCs and exploring new content. That is not to say you can still grind skills the old fashioned way of course. His suggestion merely diversifies the methods one can use in leveling up.

 

[Kelzyr]

The ideas Kelzyr is suggesting should not be lumped into the category of quests but rather tasks. These tasks are akin to, say, Arx Meridius telling a new player he can go kill walker heads at the graveyard for money and equipment, or bringing Thorax heads to unlock the Dracogenica Armatus book. Except, instead of running around Nave killing things, you are just running around Nave meeting new NPCs and exploring new content. That is not to say you can still grind skills the old fashioned way of course. His suggestion merely diversifies the methods one can use in leveling up.

Yeah I'm starting to realize now that using the word 'quests' makes people queezy at the thought of the game becoming anything akin to a more traditional MMO.

I think its fair to want it to be a supplement to the current system, but I would want it to be vastly quicker than just macroing to ensure most people will do them. As was stated earlier a combination of this system with the diminishing returns on gaining skill points might be the best way to get people to play the game while being more interactive with the game world while not vastly changing the current system.

 

[Phen]

I suggest if you haven't yet. Go listen to the QnA's Henrik has done. They may help you frame out how he would like the game.

You are suggesting something that he already has plans for, but not going to be taking out the practice makes perfect method. To much of this game has realism in it to push it into a pure RPG. The soul of the game breaths with the idea you can do whatever you want. If it was more of a RPG game it wouldn't have mining to metals be such a processes. Which for those who don't know, it's just like how it works irl...

Highly suggest listening to the 5hr QnA. You might enjoy and dislike what he has to say. Lots is going to be changed from MO1.

 

[Kelzyr]

I suggest if you haven't yet. Go listen to the QnA's Henrik has done. They may help you frame out how he would like the game.

You are suggesting something that he already has plans for, but not going to be taking out the practice makes perfect method. To much of this game has realism in it to push it into a pure RPG. The soul of the game breaths with the idea you can do whatever you want. If it was more of a RPG game it wouldn't have mining to metals be such a processes. Which for those who don't know, it's just like how it works irl...

Highly suggest listening to the 5hr QnA. You might enjoy and dislike what he has to say. Lots is going to be changed from MO1.

I'll have to go take a listen. I'm definitely not suggesting the game be turned into a typical RPG game, its why I tried to clarify what I meant by quests or tasks.

I think we have to acknowledge that the 100 skill in swords doesn't really mean the person is a master of swords. You basically HAVE to be at 100 skill point to be on a level playing field with everyone else who has 100 skill points into that skill. Then the true 'practice makes perfect' comes from honing your ability to fight with your character at its peak conditions rather than be handicapped. Its far to idealistic to think that people will level their skills in an organic way while PvPing or PvEing rather than quickly sprinting to the end to make sure their character is at its peak.

Again I haven't seen his QnA so if he has plans to do something along these lines then I can't wait to see in implemented.

 

[Rulant]

I suggest if you haven't yet. Go listen to the QnA's Henrik has done. They may help you frame out how he would like the game.

You are suggesting something that he already has plans for, but not going to be taking out the practice makes perfect method. To much of this game has realism in it to push it into a pure RPG. The soul of the game breaths with the idea you can do whatever you want. If it was more of a RPG game it wouldn't have mining to metals be such a processes. Which for those who don't know, it's just like how it works irl...

Highly suggest listening to the 5hr QnA. You might enjoy and dislike what he has to say. Lots is going to be changed from MO1.

I don't think you understand what an RPG is.

 

[Phen]

I'll have to go take a listen. I'm definitely not suggesting the game be turned into a typical RPG game, its why I tried to clarify what I meant by quests or tasks.

I think we have to acknowledge that the 100 skill in swords doesn't really mean the person is a master of swords. You basically HAVE to be at 100 skill point to be on a level playing field with everyone else who has 100 skill points into that skill. Then the true 'practice makes perfect' comes from honing your ability to fight with your character at its peak conditions rather than be handicapped. Its far to idealistic to think that people will level their skills in an organic way while PvPing or PvEing rather than quickly sprinting to the end to make sure their character is at its peak.

Again I haven't seen his QnA so if he has plans to do something along these lines then I can't wait to see in implemented.

You are a grand master weapon crafter at 100 skill. The active amount of skill needed to produce quality gear is only 70. Higher skill level just give you some astedics iirr. Combat wasn't talked much about about maxed skills. Still a min max thing with stat bonus

I don't think you understand what an RPG is.

I do understand what a RPG is.. though very few RPGs let you change whenever you want, this brings up the sandbox half. Its more sandbox than some strict rpg. When searching for MO most will look up medieval combat or sandbox / crafting. I dont feel like RPG is the go to label for MO. It has aspects of RPG though its more sandbox based. No one didn't learns how to sharpen a knife is before getting cut by one, it just happens and you know those ( knives) are sharp. RPGs let you know, like a soft blanket of understanding before getting cut. Which doesn't follow what Henriks ambitions are aiming at.

We on talking about a skilling process, I prefer the sandbox style over the RPGs style. From what I've heard, it's gunna have a mix of both and I'm okay with that. Give new players more to do! Great idea! Happy they aren't restricting us vets by making us go through a mission or quest to learn how to swing a club.

 

[MolagAmur]

Happy they aren't restricting us vets by making us go through a mission or quest to learn how to swing a club

Yeah instead we go and macro right!? Nice

 

[Phen]

Yeah instead we go and macro right!? Nice

According to steam TOS using a macro outside of ingame macros can result in a account ban on their discretion. Just FYI. But yes, macros will be back anyways. It was part of MO1.

 

[MolagAmur]

According to steam TOS using a macro outside of ingame macros can result in a account ban on their discretion. Just FYI. But yes, macros will be back anyways. It was part of MO1.

Yikes

 

[LogchopSupernova]

I think you would want to consider the new player experience as well. If you make the game in a way that doesn't give some sort of structure they will be less likely to stick around for long. Giving people tasks or hints on things to do to progress their character will give them a path on how to level their skills other than telling them, oh go kill bush pigs for 6 hours with a worn shortsword to level your swords skill.

This comment resonated with me. In a world as big as MO/MO2 is, there needs to be some sort of direction for newer players. Not everyone is going to want to search someone out to mentor them. They'll be the solo players about the world. The tasks or quests (however you want to look at them) that Kelzyr suggested is a legitimate alternative to what is currently implemented within the game.

Newer players could run around doing these tasks, while learning the game/mechanics, "skilling up", and being introduced to map locations.

In addition, something else that is important IMO, is that it also saves people time that don't have the necessary time to kill pigs for 4 hours.

Just my two cents.

 

[Rolufe]

Yeah I'm starting to realize now that using the word 'quests' makes people queezy at the thought of the game becoming anything akin to a more traditional MMO.

I think its fair to want it to be a supplement to the current system, but I would want it to be vastly quicker than just macroing to ensure most people will do them. As was stated earlier a combination of this system with the diminishing returns on gaining skill points might be the best way to get people to play the game while being more interactive with the game world while not vastly changing the current system.

Yea makes me feel trapped But i like the idea of meeting characters and getting to know the lore and stuff. Cuz we never had any lore in MO1 but always knowing there is a huge amount of lore sitting in Mats brain and hidden in some odd locations like the website Both like and dislike the idea. It sounds like i will be forced to be stuck in a tutorial to get my skills. or everyone will macro. Either way sounds boring to me. I just hope non of it forces me to be in a certain location. Like Tindrem or Morin khur. I wanna be free to do what i want and learn as i go. Biggest thing i liked with MO1 when i first started whas how nothing held me back. I could compete with the players that played for years pretty fast.

 

[Kelzyr]

Yea makes me feel trapped But i like the idea of meeting characters and getting to know the lore and stuff. Cuz we never had any lore in MO1 but always knowing there is a huge amount of lore sitting in Mats brain and hidden in some odd locations like the website Both like and dislike the idea. It sounds like i will be forced to be stuck in a tutorial to get my skills. or everyone will macro. Either way sounds boring to me. I just hope non of it forces me to be in a certain location. Like Tindrem or Morin khur. I wanna be free to do what i want and learn as i go. Biggest thing i liked with MO1 when i first started whas how nothing held me back. I could compete with the players that played for years pretty fast.

I'm not really sure anything that you quoted states that you'd be forced to do any of these tasks. If the original suggestion is laid on top of the current system with a diminishing returns on skill point gains it should be enough to make macroing pretty pointless as well as allow you to do whatever you wish in the game if you don't want to talk to the NPCs.

I think its fair to say that most people that are on this forum like the ability to play the game as they please, but I think the addition of a system like this will add something fresh for vets rather than dusting off their old macros as well as a clear path for new players that are not as familiar with how the game works.

 

[Eldrath]

A. tasks is just a less fancy word for quests. I mean it is literally the same thing.

B. Once the "new" players runs out of "tasks" they will ask for more and still quit because they "finished" the game.

C. These "task" chains would be a lot of work to do proper. Looking at the past I am not optimistic SV can do it in the time that is left. And we do need a skill up system at release that works WELL. Not a broken chain of "not-a-quest".

D. I didn´t like the "tasks" (egg delivery) in the first game very much either. They were static and unrealistic for the most part. I would rather see them replaced with something else than more of them.


In the end it´s just the opposite of the sandbox idea. It´s literally a themepark. Adding it in parallel would eat up delelopment costs for a shitty questline instead of improving the actual game play. It´s another example where people can´t see the benefit of having one character per account to the original design.

I do miss the old days where I would have had support against quest ideas, but I guess times have changed.

Instead you're forced into macroing or repeating something over and over and over again. Lets not even use the "but you don't have to do that if you dont want to" argument. Realistically people are going to want skills leveled as fast as can be. If there was some way to have a system that gave you the organic experience of learning by doing...then it would be fine. I don't see how that can work though.

I have literally just explained it in my post. If experience gain is tied to damage done etc. macroing will be less effective. Maybe a number will clear this up for you:

Macro: Doing 0,1 damage per second with a wooden sword - 0,1 experience gain per second.
Fighting walkers: Doing 10 damage per second (bigger hits split by seconds) - 10 experience gain per second.

One skill point from 0-10 = 100 exp. Macro: 1000 seconds Fightin walkers: 10 seconds + gold + actual gameplay

You can adjust the number to your liking.

 

[Rolufe]

I'm not really sure anything that you quoted states that you'd be forced to do any of these tasks. If the original suggestion is laid on top of the current system with a diminishing returns on skill point gains it should be enough to make macroing pretty pointless as well as allow you to do whatever you wish in the game if you don't want to talk to the NPCs.

I think its fair to say that most people that are on this forum like the ability to play the game as they please, but I think the addition of a system like this will add something fresh for vets rather than dusting off their old macros as well as a clear path for new players that are not as familiar with how the game works.

Okay i must have missed that. Thought it was a system to replace the old. Im fine with it if its there as parallell thing that is faster than the regular system as thats the only way to get people to do it, as macroing dont require you to be there. Probably needs to be quite a bit faster as you need to be there doing it.

 

[Rhias]

I hate quests and I'm happy MO1 had no real quests (NPC's that asks for certain goods for trade is the closest thing to a quest, expect the tutorial).
I don't want to run from Tindr. to Fab. to Meduli or whatsoever just in order to gain skill points.

In MO1 players used a lot of macros cause they needed to do the whole level up for a lot of their characters.
I would say most players in MO1 level their first character up without a macro.
In MO2 you got only one character. Leveling that one character up is endurable.

Skill system should be reworked that the "quality" of the task matters for the experience, and not only the quantity.
Crafting a metal sword should gain more XP than crafting a wooden stick.
Fighting PVE should gain more XP than hitting a dummy for 0 damage with a wooden stick.