New Player Experience Shaping Up Into a Complete Disaster

[Teknique]

Quick grinds are great. Quickly grinding by macro punching your buddy or running into a corner are not. If it takes 2 days to max level a character I'm fine with that. But I'd rather it be two days of grouping up with farming graveyard zombies or half that time of grouping up with your buddies and doing higher tier content together. Not two days of macroing.

I only macrod when I rerolled to mage and had guild mates to show me auto hotkey. They should make the leveling on magic a lot faster same with armour training and foot speed.

I think I only macrod these skills because they crossed the fun threshold and entered meaningless grind territory

 

[Kaemik]

Half my memories of MO1 were finding corners I could run into or swim into to raise footspeed or survival. Or spamming spurt on myself. The multiple rerolls really helped drive home how bad that system was.

 

[Godkin Veratas]

Imagine the response from StarVault to your initial post, which is very on point, being; "We're implementing Haven to address this." While they fail to even acknowledge any of the actual problems with the implementation. Then, perhaps, go back and read the discussion we had on Haven and see if it still looks the same to you.

 

[Teknique]

Half my memories of MO1 were finding corners I could run into or swim into to raise footspeed or survival. Or spamming spurt on myself. The multiple rerolls really helped drive home how bad that system was.

I think the main difference between our experiences was I didn't know macroing was a possibility and thus was able to have fun.

 

[Kaemik]

I think the main difference between our experiences was I didn't know macroing was a possibility and thus was able to have fun.

I didn't macro either back then. I just numlocked in a corner or just sat there casting spurt on myself manually. I'm imagining the way I intend to do it now if it's allowed (Set up a script and then go do something fun for an hour) will actually be much more enjoyable. Still terrible game design. Still really don't feel like teaching Auto-Hotkey to newbs should be part of helping players get into the game. But TBH after not macroing when everyone else was macro leveling set me back incredibly far in my Darkfall career, if they're adopting some pussy stance on macroing when it's such a powerful leveling tool, I'm just going to do it.

I'm done taking the "high road" on this kind of crap and then suffering for it. Why should I spend hours of my time spamming spurt in-person when I can let a script do it for me? Make a non-crap system I can't script. But if they're just going to be like "eh, you probably shouldn't" and then hand out wrist slaps for macroing as was the case in DFO and seems to be their stance here from what I've heard so far... they're basically outright encouraging it.

They need to take a firm stance and permaban all macroers after clearly stating they will do such, or ideally develop a system that isn't so boring people want to macro instead of playing the game.

 

[Kaemik]

Imagine the response from StarVault to your initial post, which is very on point, being; "We're implementing Haven to address this." While they fail to even acknowledge any of the actual problems with the implementation. Then, perhaps, go back and read the discussion we had on Haven and see if it still looks the same to you.

I stand by my opinion a well-done Haven is a good idea. Haven is of course less important than creating a new player experience so terrible no tutorial can ever sugarcoat it. A fully voiced AAA tutorial telling you "Now setup your macro and run into a wall for the rest of the day, but wait, before you do that, delete your character and remake it because your race sucks and you well get your ass handed to you in every PvP engagement if you seriously play that."

I didn't even imagine the devs were crazy enough to bring back this kind of nonsense though. I really thought they had learned something running MO1.

I would say I look forward to trying Haven later this month, but based on what they are doing with races I imagine Haven will be a cut and paste from MO1. Which literally everyone in that topic including me said is not what they want.

 

[Teknique]

I didn't macro either back then. I just numlocked in a corner or just sat there casting spurt on myself manually. I'm imagining the way I intend to do it now if it's allowed (Set up a script and then go do something fun for an hour) will actually be much more enjoyable. Still terrible game design. Still really don't feel like teaching Auto-Hotkey to newbs should be part of helping players get into the game. But TBH after not macroing when everyone else was macro leveling set me back incredibly far in my Darkfall career, if they're adopting some pussy stance on macroing when it's such a powerful leveling tool, I'm just going to do it.

I'm done taking the "high road" on this kind of crap and then suffering for it. Why should I spend hours of my time spamming spurt in-person when I can let a script do it for me? Make a non-crap system I can't script. But if they're just going to be like "eh, you probably shouldn't" and then hand out wrist slaps for macroing as was the case in DFO and seems to be their stance here from what I've heard so far... they're basically outright encouraging it.

They need to take a firm stance and permaban all macroers after clearly stating they will do such, or ideally develop a system that isn't so boring people want to macro instead of playing the game.

This is why all grindyness needs to be removed.

 

[Kaemik]

This is why all grindyness needs to be removed.

I fully agree. I want to bring newbs out PvPing with me and have them feeling like they are somewhat viable as a part of a greater team and having fun on day one. I should be focusing on teaching them on how to listen commands and work as a team. Not sending them auto-hotkey scripts in Discord and telling them to come back in a day or two when their character is ready.

And if they need to smash zombies for days to be even semi-viable that's a failure as well IMO

I don't mind seeing a fair bit of PVE needed to reach your character's full potential. But minimum viable barrier to entry should be over before or shortly after you finish the tutorial. People will remember running in a squad and getting their kills on Day1 and it will make them love the game forever. There's like two dunces in the back that still enjoy endless grinds in MMOs. Mostly, they're just this genre's greatest failure and why most people switched to MOBAs.

 

[Godkin Veratas]

I stand by my opinion a well-done Haven is a good idea. Haven is of course less important than creating a new player experience so terrible no tutorial can ever sugarcoat it. A fully voiced AAA tutorial telling you "Now setup your macro and run into a wall for the rest of the day, but wait, before you do that, delete your character and remake it because your race sucks and you well get your ass handed to you in every PvP engagement if you seriously play that."

I didn't even imagine the devs were crazy enough to bring back this kind of nonsense though. I really thought they had learned something running MO1.

I would say I look forward to trying Haven later this month, but based on what they are doing with races I imagine Haven will be a cut and paste from MO1. Which literally everyone in that topic including me said is not what they want.

Yes, and as I see it, many in that thread, including yourself, are arguing about how to do things in an ideal way. How Haven might, or should go, is a fun topic, but was off point. As you say, the assumption is that SV wouldn't do something as dumb as copy past Haven into a game with an attribute gain system so poor. With missing tool tips, with a need for macros, with unfun magic and leveling overall. I did not, and do not share those assumptions. Henrik can be heard in a live stream responding to a viewer's question about why he is repeatedly punching a vendor to level by saying "It will be much better, in Haven, attributes will level faster." What if they massively increase attribute gain on Haven but keep it exactly the same on the main game? Are you satisfied? I'm sure as hell not. I think it should be obvious to see how Haven is being used as a shield for poor implementation, which was the point, correctly anticipated before that live stream. Other negatives can arise from a Haven, but it all starts there.

I have no interest in Haven, I hope it's short, presentable, and very limited. I also hope it doesn't suck up needed thought, focused energy, and development time, from the actual game. As the game progresses, it will become ever more clear, there is a constant shortage of those precious resources.

 

[Kaemik]

Their issue isn't even resources. Implementing a system where you level by actually killing things may take slightly more work, diminishing returns would not. It would be insanely simple to implement and require no new assets. Bet I could get it done in a day with access to the attribute code myself and 90% of that would be learning the language. Just a matter of doing it. Their issue is they clearly haven't learned from their mistakes and have no idea how to properly balance a game. They are putting all this work into clade bonuses and adjusting stat caps when they're basically rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

And they're not even rearranging them after the iceberg. We haven't hit the iceberg yet. The icebergs still coming. This topic and some others are basically saying "Iceberg on the horizon! Divert course!" And they're ignoring it so they can rearrange the deck chairs. That's not a resource issue.

Literally all they would have to do to increase my optimism in the success of this game back to previous levels is be like "We'll look into diminishing returns and less cancerous leveling system."

Instead they are saying: "Alvarins op, oghmirs op thursars op kallards op, sounds good !" - Henrik 2021

Sure. Alvarin will likely be OP footmages. Oghmirs may be OP as fat mages. Thursar/Khallard is OP as a foot fighter. But if you think that "sounds good" you clearly don't understand the concept that people don't want their build to necessitate a specific race in a supposedly sandbox game. Builds should present options for races, and races should present options for builds. And you are giving us neither.

 

[lord_yoshi]

Your ideas are terrible and you should probably move on to another game.

 

[Kaemik]

Your ideas are terrible and you should probably move on to another game.

We all be finding a new game if SV listens to morons like you. Nobody will play MO2 just like nobody played MO1. Even Darkfall was cracking jokes about how small the MO1 community was and that game literally got shut down. MO1 was on life support for it's entire existence. You think faster newb speeds is going to fix that? You're a first rate idiot if you seriously believe that. The problems run deeper and need to be identified and addressed. People saying "this is fine" because they made one minor tweak will absolutely doom this game to repeat it's previous failures.

 

[Jhackman]

Reroll after haven and make killing mobs much faster exp then hitting people. Done..

The amount of combos and ways to build your char is what makes character building fun. With clades there should be even more options. (Havent tested yet)

Diminishing returns would make everyone hybrid tamers.

 

[Bernfred]

Reroll after haven and make killing mobs much faster exp then hitting people. Done..

The amount of combos and ways to build your char is what makes character building fun. With clades there should be even more options. (Havent tested yet)

Diminishing returns would make everyone hybrid tamers.

done

 

[Kaemik]

Honestly, there are so few viable builds per race that the current system may as well be some trash system from Korea where your class determines your race. It basically is that just with a deceptively open seeming system that cons newbs into thinking it isn't.

Every build being some form of hybrid sounds preferable to build determining race / race determining build. So your worst case scenario sounds better to me than the status quo. But it only need be that way if poorly balanced. Only dozens of other RPGS starting as far back as pen and paper have figured it out, some rather successfully. Even the worst I can think of having slightly better racial balance than MO. It shouldn't be that hard to make improvements because we have prettymuch nowhere to go but up.

 

[lord_yoshi]

You want to turn MO into a generic copy of a completely different game. Just go play something else. Thursars will never be the best mages.

 

[Kaemik]

And Khurites which are literally based on the Mongolians and have lore about how they are born to the saddle will never be the best mounted builds I suppose.

 

[Teknique]

We all be finding a new game if SV listens to morons like you. Nobody will play MO2 just like nobody played MO1. Even Darkfall was cracking jokes about how small the MO1 community was and that game literally got shut down. MO1 was on life support for it's entire existence. You think faster newb speeds is going to fix that? You're a first rate idiot if you seriously believe that. The problems run deeper and need to be identified and addressed. People saying "this is fine" because they made one minor tweak will absolutely doom this game to repeat it's previous failures.

I'm firmly of the belief that we'd all still be playing MO 1, if every time you had tried to do something you didn't run into a gate and there were no unkillable guilds.

 

[Kaemik]

Depends on who you mean by "we all". I'm fairly sure it does not encompass the entirety of the audience SV had in mind when they decided to make the map bigger.

 

[Teknique]

Depends on who you mean by "we all". I'm fairly sure it does not encompass the entirety of the audience SV had in mind when they decided to make the map bigger.

I'm talking about when there were guilds playing

ely, ID, pyre, Dred, RPK, unity or union or whatever they were called, req.

all large TC guilds.