Mortal 2 Combat meta and abilities @Henrik

[fartbox]

I was watching a Slasher stream and saw Henrik pop in, I would love for Henrik to engage on these forums as often as engages in twitch streams. While you were in stream I saw multiple complaints about the combat meta, from both viewers and slasher himself. Slashers chief complaint is the defensive meta, novice players chief complaint is spinning and animation handling as the skill-cap in the game. Also the game revolving around parries which can be anywhere from mildly to severely impacted by ping.

This is something I've brought up before in this forum but i'd like to bring it up again now while its fresh in our minds. So lets talk Henrik, please engage with us here.

Lets talk about the current combat meta and how it resonates within the MMO player demographic and more specifically the demographic of MMO players that might be interested in playing full loot PVP games. Those players are currently playing: OSRS/Albion/EVE/Dark&Darker/Fractured/LeagueOfLegends/Almost human/Dayz/Rust and a handful of other survival games as well as those of us here in Mortal 2. Those are the type of players that *might* be interested in playing a game like Mortal. New players have to come from somewhere, they come from other games.

Currently the melee combat meta in Mortal is very defensive. 1v1's can take in upwards of 15minutes to complete however a 1v3 on the otherhand can be over in just moments. Which doesn't boad well for solo play as most solo players when engaged will be engaged by multiple players, not just 1. With no hard reset mechanics like other open world-pvp games you are often forced into a fights in Mortal that can only end in one outcome(your death). This is bad for the game, a player should never feel helpless, no matter how many people engage them.

Of all these games, most of the populated the survivals are FPS which revolve around equipment and extremely low TTK(TIme to Kill) and all of the MMO's are ability based. With Mortal being a MMO and a FPS viewpoint it makes sense thematically to combine these two elements. It also makes sense for adoption rates among players that might try the game. These players will be coming from a background of mostly ability based games.

What types of abilities?
Mobility & Damage to start. Potentially mitigation abilities later.

How would the meta change with the introduction of mobility and damage abilities?

Mages would be able to cast at full run speed, all the time.
Mages would have their own disengage abilities/peels
Melee would have gap closers, guaranteed damage, slows
Bows could become a viable foot build

Abilities could be balanced by introducing new action points that have perquisite requirements.
Unique hybrid builds could emerge. People could theory craft.
Races could get unique abilities.

Abilities and their damage could also be balanced by weapon class and material. Balancing by weapon damage only might result in everyone running only high damage weapons. IE: Messing maul

Ping would be less of a determining factor.
The meta would be more focused on movement and positioning rather then turtling.

The TTK would be lower with current health pools; health pools can always be adjusted until satisfactory.
A more offensive meta
An average player engaged by 3 players would have a much higher likelihood of taking at least one player with them. (this is good for the game.)
The basic attack system could remain in place with parries.



Notes:
Damage abilities should have to be aimed but if they connect the result should be almost exclusively small radius AOE damage. This will strongly discourage zerging. The ability shouldn't hit the player casting it.

 

[Sally]

As the game is, you have a bunch of simple tools that you can use in a creative way. Like melee, you have the direction you move, direction you attack/block, feints etc, you can combine these simple piece to formulate your own techniques. I found some of the best games usually do this.

Throwing in abilities could contaminate this simplicity, or make it better, difficult to say honestly.

Adding weapon abilities just feels like trying to fix a problem that isn't there, when there are many other glaring issues with the game that just require the adjustment of some numbers.

Heavy armor is one example of a huge issue with the game. It is massively overtuned, rendering archers obsolete against anything that isn't in light armor or a horse. It also creates an issue with self healing, where these people just get endless chances because the higher their defense, the more broken heals become.

Nerfing heavy armor fixes a lot of issues currently plaguing the game. Other than that? Fix people janking the animations with melee spins.

 

[Sniket]

Why worry about any of this?

If we are lucky we will in 6 months be able to vote for new combat abilities , and then they will be implemented in 2025 , they will be buggy and half-assed.

The game will be long dead by then.

 

[ElPerro]

Sounds like you just want to turn this game into Albion Online 2 with MoBA combat...

The game doesnt need any melee special ability, just fix the basic combat. Stam on parries has already helped alot the 1vX scenario and the only thing needed to break the defensive meta is the blink charge counter so you can attack from neutral position. Thats it.

But this wont even matter if they dont fix the retarded tower shield + immortal oghmir meta.

Unblockable melee abilities that need to be dodged by figure 8 will make the game even more ping dependant. Im sure new players will have fun getting hit from miles away by some australian and not being able to do anything about it lmao

Also Henrik hasnt step foot in this forum once, its just filled with old MO1 boomers. If you want him to even read your suggestions its best to try to catch him on discord or twitch.

 

[Philocypher]

I think some balance tweaks for different weapon types would be prudent...
For instance, handle hits shouldn't be uniform 60%. Hitting with the hilt of your sword should go back to like 10% damage, hitting with the handle of a hammer should go up to 80%.

Weapon weight should be factored into parries. There's no way a 250 gram dagger blocks a 5 kilo halberd. Giving heavier weapons bleedthrough against lighter weapons would incentivize heavier weapons whose current existence is difficult to justify.

 

[fartbox]

Sounds like you just want to turn this game into Albion Online 2 with MoBA combat...

The game doesnt need any melee special ability, just fix the basic combat. Stam on parries has already helped alot the 1vX scenario and the only thing needed to break the defensive meta is the blink charge counter so you can attack from neutral position. Thats it.

But this wont even matter if they dont fix the retarded tower shield + immortal oghmir meta.

Unblockable melee abilities that need to be dodged by figure 8 will make the game even more ping dependant. Im sure new players will have fun getting hit from miles away by some australian and not being able to do anything about it lmao

Also Henrik hasnt step foot in this forum once, its just filled with old MO1 boomers. If you want him to even read your suggestions its best to try to catch him on discord or twitch.

If the current rule-set was 5% as successful as Albion this thread wouldn't of been posted. But its not. Henrik is looking at player retention and asking how it can be improved. I believe the combat meta is a big part of the player retention issue. I believe it doesn't resonate with the player demographic that might be interested in a game like Mortal. I believe it's poorly received and widely disliked by people outside of the Mortal 2 community (and even inside the community in some cases). Which for you may not be a problem but unfortunately it is a problem for the health of the server. Because players have to come from somewhere...they come from other games.

 

[CherryKush]

Henrik is looking at player retention and asking how it can be improved.

By actually having interesting things in the world to find and hunt instead of vast patches of nothing between towns. There could be random tephra or rare tree and ground spawns to find. Named mobs that have a chance to drop something rare and of worth. Pathing mobs that actually move around and make the world feel alive. Anything but the vast swaths of barren nothingness... But we might as well be talking to a brick wall, Henrik seems to like it big and empty for some reason...

 

[ElPerro]

If the current rule-set was 5% as successful as Albion this thread wouldn't of been posted. But its not. Henrik is looking at player retention and asking how it can be improved. I believe the combat meta is a big part of the player retention issue. I believe it doesn't resonate with the player demographic that might be interested in a game like Mortal. I believe it's poorly received and widely disliked by people outside of the Mortal 2 community (and even inside the community in some cases). Which for you may not be a problem but unfortunately it is a problem for the health of the server. Because players have to come from somewhere...they come from other games.

Might as well just convert it to a tab target game, I mean thats what the majority of MMORPG players like right? Most of them really dislike FPS combat thats why theres very few MMORPGs with that type of combat. On top of that, Henrik had the genius idea of doing a global server adding even more issues like ping.

If we are talking about the survival genre demographic, almost all of them prefer FPS type combat. But probably not on a global server, unless they are EU. So either way Mortal atm is a niche of a niche, with a sub on top and crazy UE5 system requirements

 

[Teknique]

you’re both wrong. It doesn’t matter what the system is if it’s designed by an idiot. FPS tab target top down platform scroller, it’s all gonna be shit.

 

[fartbox]

By actually having interesting things in the world to find and hunt instead of vast patches of nothing between towns. There could be random tephra or rare tree and ground spawns to find. Named mobs that have a chance to drop something rare and of worth. Pathing mobs that actually move around and make the world feel alive. Anything but the vast swaths of barren nothingness... But we might as well be talking to a brick wall, Henrik seems to like it big and empty for some reason...

Yea I agree with you more content is always good but I just don't know how many players are making it that far? I feel like most players that quit make it to around sewer level of content before they quit. The game flows terribly for solo players, especially novice solo players. Something like RUST for example flows way better because of the combat meta.

Charge strikes aren't going to change anything either. Charge strikes will be great in 1v1's but will make 1vX even harder then it already is.

At the end of the day, unless the game flows well for an average solo player the player count will remain low. The combat meta is a major part of the problem that can be *somewhat easily* fixed. I know many of you will raise the argument "It's an MMO, just group up." but it's a bad argument because the results speak for themselves. The MMO's that flow well for average solo players are the ones that have populations. It is what it is, don't shoot the messenger.

 

[fartbox]

Might as well just convert it to a tab target game, I mean thats what the majority of MMORPG players like right? Most of them really dislike FPS combat thats why theres very few MMORPGs with that type of combat. On top of that, Henrik had the genius idea of doing a global server adding even more issues like ping.

If we are talking about the survival genre demographic, almost all of them prefer FPS type combat. But probably not on a global server, unless they are EU. So either way Mortal atm is a niche of a niche, with a sub on top and crazy UE5 system requirements

Actually pretty accurate observations. The majority of the high population Survival games are FPS with the exception of Dark&darker(first person viewpoint) and Vrising(medium population) and one could argue that Dark is not really a survival game, its an extraction game.

But thats why I said since Mortal is both a MMO and a FPS it makes sense to thematically combine the two.

What is the hallmark of FPS combat? Very low Time to Kill.
What is the Hallmark of MMO combat? Stylish abilities/utility/status effects

Mix them together. Somewhere with a moderately low TTK and Abilities that must be aimed with an emphasis on small raidus aoe damage to discourage zerging since there are no map restrictions on group size. I don't see another option here. The current system isn't working. It receives complaints from novice and veteran players everywhere I look. We all don't agree on all the specific complaints but everyone agrees to complain.

 

[Rahz]

Actually pretty accurate observations. The majority of the high population Survival games are FPS with the exception of Dark&darker(first person viewpoint) and Vrising(medium population) and one could argue that Dark is not really a survival game, its an extraction game.

But thats why I said since Mortal is both a MMO and a FPS it makes sense to thematically combine the two.

What is the hallmark of FPS combat? Very low Time to Kill.
What is the Hallmark of MMO combat? Stylish abilities/utility/status effects

Mix them together. Somewhere with a moderately low TTK and Abilities that must be aimed with an emphasis on small raidus aoe damage to discourage zerging since there are no map restrictions on group size. I don't see another option here. The current system isn't working. It receives complaints from novice and veteran players everywhere I look. We all don't agree on all the specific complaints but everyone agrees to complain.

I think you're almost spot on. The only thing i struggle with is the term "MMO combat". I think most MMOs being tab target is because of technical limitations and ping problems when going on a "massive" scale.
MO2s greatest issue is ping. The "one server" policy makes it impossible to base combat around things that usually make good, FUN and skill-based melee combat like spacing and being fast paced. Zergs would in my mind already be less of an issue (they always will be an issue tho since 1v20 is by definition unfair) if the TTK was lower. You could theoretically take out one or two zerglings with a well executed ambush and get away with it. And that would be great fun in a game like that and would encourage people to go out in the wilds and take revenge on the zergs
Combat abilities should not be needed and I always thought of them as needing to be a little different for mortal... like maybe different movesets/ animations, the alvarin jump clade,a neutral attack or maybe a bash that punishes blocking or something. Im not that well-versed in MO2s melee combat so take these suggestions as just examples to clarify my POV.

 

[Teknique]

Actually pretty accurate observations. The majority of the high population Survival games are FPS with the exception of Dark&darker(first person viewpoint) and Vrising(medium population) and one could argue that Dark is not really a survival game, its an extraction game.

But thats why I said since Mortal is both a MMO and a FPS it makes sense to thematically combine the two.

What is the hallmark of FPS combat? Very low Time to Kill.
What is the Hallmark of MMO combat? Stylish abilities/utility/status effects

Mix them together. Somewhere with a moderately low TTK and Abilities that must be aimed with an emphasis on small raidus aoe damage to discourage zerging since there are no map restrictions on group size. I don't see another option here. The current system isn't working. It receives complaints from novice and veteran players everywhere I look. We all don't agree on all the specific complaints but everyone agrees to complain.

I actually consider mo 1 to be a mix of counterstrike and WoW. It was pretty amazing. Not this game though.

 

[fartbox]

Just gonna drop this here @ 23:48 timestamp. It's probably been discussed before (the video) but I want to remind everyone that the MMORPG demographic has a very poor reception on the combat in MO2, we can watch the twitch chat nearly unanimously agree with both narrators, and that twitch chat is almost entirely MMORPG demographic. There are other issues holding MO2 back but the combat is in my belief one of the most critical issues that's causing low adoption rates for the game.

Its saddening because realizing that the game can never be successful unless one of its core features is changed is not what anyone currently playing the game wants to hear. It will take a ton of dev resources, a ton of testing, and it may negatively impact the small group of players currently playing the game that have adapted to the poor combat meta that Mortal 2 provides.

MO2 is a case example on why a MMO must do open play-tests prior to launch and consider player feedback. A properly tested alpha would of never seen this combat passed through.

 

[ElPerro]

Just gonna drop this here @ 23:48 timestamp. It's probably been discussed before (the video) but I want to remind everyone that the MMORPG demographic has a very poor reception on the combat in MO2, we can watch the twitch chat nearly unanimously agree with both narrators, and that twitch chat is almost entirely MMORPG demographic. There are other issues holding MO2 back but the combat is in my belief one of the most critical issues that's causing low adoption rates for the game.

Its saddening because realizing that the game can never be successful unless one of its core features is changed is not what anyone currently playing the game wants to hear. It will take a ton of dev resources, a ton of testing, and it may negatively impact the small group of players currently playing the game that have adapted to the poor combat meta that Mortal 2 provides.

MO2 is a case example on why a MMO must do open play-tests prior to launch and consider player feedback. A properly tested alpha would of never seen this combat passed through.

Of course, the MMORPG demographic mostly hates FPS type combat. If the goal is to attract as many players as possible then switching to a more WoW like tab target combat would appease more to the average MMORPG gamer. But according to that video, they dont like forced full loot pvp either! So we would need to remove full loot and make pvp optional like New World. And we end up with.... another generic MMORPG for the masses.

 

[fartbox]

Of course, the MMORPG demographic mostly hates FPS type combat. If the goal is to attract as many players as possible then switching to a more WoW like tab target combat would appease more to the average MMORPG gamer. But according to that video, they dont like forced full loot pvp either! So we would need to remove full loot and make pvp optional like New World. And we end up with.... another generic MMORPG for the masses.

I disagree; Rust and Dayz are extremely popular. There are 9x more active players in Rust then there are in New world. While not traditional MMO's their demographics will be compatible with MO2/EVE/Albion/OSRS and many of those players come from that background, many of players from Rust have tried Mortal and complained about the combat and then subsequently quit because of it. The combat metas in both Rust and Dayz are suitable for full loot PVP open-world with no group size restrictions. The combat in Mortal is not suitable for full-loot-pvp open-world with no group size restrictions.

You have to truly be objective to understand just why the combat meta in Mortal is bad. I know that's hard to do when you've invested alot of time in getting good at it, I have as well but i've never once defended the Mortal combat meta. I've always said it was bad, from day 1. The only reason I played the game is because there is a very distinct lack of options for modern full-loot MMO's. My options are limited to EVE/Albion/OSRS/Mortal. Two of those games are several decades old and the other one is a mobile dominant game.

No one is saying to convert the game to tab-target, no one is saying to remove skill-cap, no one is saying that you need to have a million subscribers to make a successful game. But you defiantly need more then 1000 and you aren't going to get there with Mortals combat. That's just how it is and if you can't see that then I don't know what else to say.

Adding aimed melee abilities, mobility, allowing mages to cast at full speed, lowering the TTK especially 1v1, and timed counters would do wonders to improve the combat flow in Mortal not for everyone but for alot more players then we have now.

 

[Philocypher]

I really like the way mortal's combat works. There's some serious issues, though, that I don't believe will be solved by adding moba-esque abilities.

I want to see better balance between the weapons. I want a 9kg hammer to deal bleedthrough against a 200 gram dagger, every time.

 

[fartbox]

I really like the way mortal's combat works. There's some serious issues, though, that I don't believe will be solved by adding moba-esque abilities.

I want to see better balance between the weapons. I want a 9kg hammer to deal bleedthrough against a 200 gram dagger, every time.

I understand that you like it but realize that you are in a very very small minority. Even if the approval rate of the combat in Mortal was at 100% of the current population(and it's not, this thread is also a poll) it would still be an extremely small minority of the MMO/Survival demographic which is millions of players when combining dayz/rust/vrising/OSRS/Albion/Eve/Conan/etc.

The proof is in the reviews on steam, the reviews on reddit, this thread poll, the consensus in MMO communities demonstrated again and again that most players that might be interested in the gameplay that Mortal provides do not like the combat, they dislike it so much that they uninstall the game after only a few hours.