Melee Combat Improvement Thread

[PatWins]

Hey everyone,

As some of you already know, I have a sickening amount of hours in MO2. I'm currently at 1,800 hours (get a life nerd) and continuing to push forward. Because this amount of playtime brings absolutely no value to my life, I'm hoping it can at least help to benefit the game in some way.

While we're on the topic of wasting our precious time on earth, I have an even more sickening amount of playtime in MO1. My melee combat background consists of War of the Roses, M&B, Chivalry 1, Chivalry 2, Mordhau, Reign of Kings (lol), Kingdom Come: Deliverance, Mortal Online 1 and Mortal Online 2. So at a minimum, I hope you will regard the feedback I'm about to offer with some form of credibility.

Although I'm guessing, I'd say 90% of my MO2 playtime has been purely melee combat. Over a year and 1,800 hours later, here's a handful of ideas I feel could improve the game's melee combat without resorting to "make it faster" or "regional servers". If I'm being honest, I feel that those solutions are valid, but will never happen. This thread is designed to offer solutions based off of what we have instead of what will never be.



So, now that's over. Let's proceed.

Suggestion 1 - If a fully committed swing does not make contact with a player, increase the block delay window significantly.

• This system is actually already in place. However, the window of time between a missed swing and your next block is far too short to be truly punishable.
• An increased delay should not apply to a follow-up swing. Aggressive options need to be maintained.
• The block delay HAS to be global and unable to be avoided by simply starting a new attack into a block.
• One handed weapons should automatically have a shorter block delay than two handers to create further incentive for use.
• This rewards well timed/aimed inputs while punishing spammers and unskilled play.
• Movement and footwork will play a much bigger role in the game again similar to MO1.
  

Suggestion 2 - Remove the ability to cancel your block delay with ground/terrain hits.

• Players can completely negate suggestion 1 without suggestion 2. Ramming your weapon into the ground to negate your mistakes is not difficult to do and lowers the skill ceiling significantly.
  

Suggestion 3 - Rework melee damage states to function like archery.

• There should still be an early stage in the charge circle that punishes spammed left clicks by dealing minimal damage.
• Melee damage stages currently function like this - / 0-20% / 20-70% / 70-100% / 100% / 120% /
  Each of these damage states represent the percentage of the circle filled, not damage. Every new bracket equals a damage increase. The time between 20% charge and 70% charge has 0 effect on your damage. This doesn't feel like you're rewarded for squeezing every bit of charge out of your swings.
• With the exception of the 0-20% stage (punishes LMB spammers), adjusting the damage calculation to perform like archery would lead to more controlled damage output and would pair exceptionally well with suggestion 1. This will naturally lower TTK.
• Dodging your opponent's swing, gauging their block delay (based on their weapon/character) and punishing with a perfectly charged attack to output maximum damage requires skill.
  

Suggestion 4 - Kicks, we need them.

• Kicking your opponent while they're in an active block state should either deal low-moderate damage or temporarily disable blocks. (Feedback needed here)
• Kicking an opponent who is not actively blocking should have no effect at all (maybe a small shove MAYBE).
• If we go with the disabled block route, movement should never be affected by a kick.
• Kicks should take A TON of stamina and encourage players to use them strategically/sparingly rather than spamming.
• Stamina should not begin to return until the kick animation has concluded.
• Failed kicks will lock the kicker in place for the entire animation and leave them completely open to attacks. Failed kicks need to be PUNISHABLE!
• Players should be able to feint an attack into a kick to increase mix-up/mind game potential.
• Zergs who spam kicks will fall behind due to the massive stamina penalty + distance lost from the whiffed kick.
• A skilled player will be able to predict a kick and quickly lower their block which will waste the attacker's stam, distance and time.
• If an unskilled zerg spams kicks, they will quickly split their group and leave many behind allowing smaller groups to strike back.
  

Suggestion 5 - Side-steps and dodges.

• We need a small side step or dodge similar to Chivalry 2.
• Dodges pair well with all previous suggestions and come together to make one cohesive combat system.
• Dodges should take a considerable amount of stamina or be tied to a balanced cool-down. We don't want dodge spam and teleporting players.
• Current attacks should not be cancelled by a dodge and must be chargeable during the dodge animation.
  

Suggestion 6 - Add a small invulnerability window after successfully LANDING a counter attack.

• To further reward skilled, aimed inputs, a player who lands a counter attack on a player should be given a small invulnerability window. Nothing more than 1 second.
• This will slightly increase skilled player's ability to fight outnumbered by allowing a window of time to deal damage and recoup.
• I-frames will not apply to successful normal attacks. Only counter attacks.
• The idea of the entire counter animation being invulnerable crossed my mind but ended up sounding overpowered and abuseable. (Team's feeding counters to each other, further encouraging the defensive meta, etc.)
• This whole idea is a huge maybe. Would love to hear improvements and feedback.
  

Suggestion 7 - True feinting instead of the "Walk" button.

• We need a legitimate feint system which allows us to mix-up our attacks through intended game mechanics. Not a function that was originally intended to be "Walk".
• MO2's free blocking system allows for feints to be acceptable due to the sheer speed we can redirect blocks.
• Feints must take a considerable amount of stamina and not be spammable. Everything must be done in the name of strategy and skill.
• Players should be able to feint or cancel their swing for a very brief window after the swing is released.
• Even morphs might work where certain directions can only be morphed into specific other directions (within reason).
  

Suggestion 8 - Add an active ability similar to overhead strike in MO1.

• An active ability that functions like an on-demand counter would be useful as a finisher or a way to mix up your opponent's defense.
• Same thing here. The stamina penalty or cooldown route should be taken. I personally prefer stamina management over cooldowns in most scenarios.
• After successfully striking another player, the game currently allows us to instantly begin a new attack. This active counter could be weaved into this system as well.
  

Suggestion 9 - Extend the weapon weight and speed system across a longer range.

• Example - If 1kg is maximum speed and 5kg is minimum speed, increase the stages between min and max speed where 1kg will still be fastest and 8kg would become the new minimum (just an example). It's the exact same minimum and maximum speed but spread out across a longer weight range.
• This allows for higher-end materials to become more viable from a speed perspective without actually speeding up the game.
• Heavier, higher damage weapons would see much more use among players and naturally decrease time to kill.
• A higher demand for more protective armor would come with this as well.
  

Keep in mind, these suggestions stem from the fact that this game will always utilize a global server with pings ranging from 1-300. If this was a lobby based game or a regional server MMO, my suggestions would differ greatly. However, that discussion is pointless and I encourage all of you to start accepting that as well. Let's focus on what we have rather than what will never be.

Thanks for reading. Have a great weekend everyone!

 

[StreamerLord]

They had almost a years worth of combat alpha to innovate this slow clunky system and listen to player feedback. People suggested kicks from day one. Great post but it falls on deaf ears.

 

[Glitch]

Hi, my name is Glitchnious and I approve this message.

 

[Snasen]

Really good post! Can see the effort you put into this. Appreciate it! I have been really doubting the addition of kick, but the way you thought it through might just work out in a balanced way, at least in my mind. Only thing that I thought about was that we also need options with low stam consumption other than swinging a light weapon or theres gonna be alot of standing still or empty walking. I think we also need options for pressuring like the way the current feinting works well when used at the right time, but is not that big of a commitment. So your suggestion nr.7 is the one I would probably like to change the most.

Totally agree to have a feint button on its own though or at least they have to tell the players very clearly that the walk button is a feint button in combat mode. It does not even say on the keybinds so far.

Also think ground bops or hitting something should have slightly lower window for being punished compared to openly whiffing through the air. Partly because there is alot of random obstacles to hit in this game atm that would add alooot of frustration to get your ass whooped due to a small leaf or thin branch that was in the way of your polesword. But also to add something for the player to react with to minimize their punishment after noticing their screw up (dodge might also fill this role perfectly if you are allowed to dodge in such a situation).

Alot can also change with active skills being added in the future. A true counter like you suggested is a great idea i think. Either global or weapon specific skill.

About the charging wheel with 4 stages it kind of rewards players with good timing and you would have to calculate how big of a punish you are able to get if someone whiffed a strike. I also think the 4 stages of a charge has potentially an interesting effect on weapon meta. If it is gradual like bows I feel like there will be a more obvious choice of what weapon is the strongest due to higher dps per milisec charged especially mixed with the other suggestions you wrote.

As I am writing this reply, I feel like the dodge or sidestep mechanic is key to balancing the most of your suggestions. It would heighten the skill ceiling alot by itself also.

Thanks for this thread, Pat! Really hope SV takes their time on this one =)

 

[Rolufe]

They had almost a years worth of combat alpha to innovate this slow clunky system and listen to player feedback. People suggested kicks from day one. Great post but it falls on deaf ears.

Henrik did make a few pages long message about combat additions they planed to put in. Such as special attacks for each weapon group and kicks.

 

[Bicorps]

Henrik did make a few pages long message about combat additions they planed to put in. Such as special attacks for each weapon group and kicks.

RIP MO

 

[StreamerLord]

Henrik did make a few pages long message about combat additions they planed to put in. Such as special attacks for each weapon group and kicks.

Henrik says a lot of things ever hear him go on and on about dragons.

 

[Bernfred]

1. fix broken animations in addition

2. FOV 103 since a few patches is like saying goodbye to every melee enjoyer, you dont only get motion sickness but you can look nicely into the enemy model and you alyways lose the opponent even with a small 144hz screen with 144fps, i bet alot of people enjoy to fight this way...
there was the discussion about distorted pictures with higher FOV, i mean wtf, even FOV 80 is distorted. these 3 guys who wanted a lower max FOV so every picture people post looks less distorted, ruined the melee game entirely. even max. FOV 109 was too narrow and a higher cap was needed. its not even the case that the zoomed in pictures rn are looking better and dont make the mistake and add VR when you forced people to play with FOV 103 for all the years.

 

[Speznat]

I like most of the ideas. Maybe we will see this ingame some day. Give SV time.
Rome can't be build in one day.
The glory of mortal will be infinite.
Party hard:

Spoiler: At your own Risk

 

[Rihn_Watanabe]

I appreciate and agree with many of your suggestions, the sole one I disagree with is the invulnerability window. I simply don't think anything like that belongs in the game.

One thing I've always wanted was more options when it came to attacking. What if you were able to 'charge' forward with a stab, kind of like how you can charge on mounts? I'm not talking about moving THAT fast, or for THAT long, but just enough to close a distance of maybe a few meters and gain bonus momentum damage, in exchange for say 25% of your stamina. similar special attacks for slashes and overhands too, but maybe not with the 'charge' element.

I was completely unaware that the circle charge worked that way, if it really does treat 20%->70% the same, then I'd definitely support a change to making it maybe change for every 10% of the charge (past 20). Same for the weapon weights, I'd even support the normalization of circle charge time and instead change the speed at which the weapon swings more, making it so that you block/parry more on the visual of your enemy swinging rather than watching them sitting there 'charging' the attack for 4 seconds.

As far as kicks go, I've only been a player of mo2 for a short while, but I feel like it would take them forever to implement new animations for a kick. Maybe simply reuse the 'push' for this? I've literally never seen anyone really use the push in a real fight, and it would give it an actual use instead of being used almost purely to knock people into the water. Maybe pushing without a shield could simply drop the opponents block, while doing it with a shield would cost more stamina, disable the block, and do a tiny bit of damage? They could tweak with push speeds or animations until it took similar time to what a kick would.

 

[Runaljod]

Patwins is easy to agree with. Good post!

 

[Tzone]

FOV 103 since a few patches is like saying goodbye to every melee enjoyer, you dont only get motion sickness but you can look nicely into the enemy model and you alyways lose the opponent even with a small 144hz screen with 144fps, i bet alot of people enjoy to fight this way...
there was the discussion about distorted pictures with higher FOV, i mean wtf, even FOV 80 is distorted. these 3 guys who wanted a lower max FOV so every picture people post looks less distorted, ruined the melee game entirely. even max. FOV 109 was too narrow and a higher cap was needed. its not even the case that the zoomed in pictures rn are looking better and dont make the mistake and add VR when you forced people to play with FOV 103 for all the years.

Yeah the 103 fov is annoying. Its not my normal FoV and 103 is so narrow. I was wondering if there was a actual reasoning.
Game would be so much better if it allowed us a normal 110 FoV.

 

[Rhias]

I'm not a big fan of any type of invulnerability and the dodge might cause ping related issues (like the one in MO1 did), but I like all other suggestions.

 

[ValhallaRider]

The BIG thing that ruins melee combat to me is:

The very short recovery times between parry/block
This time needs to be increased to reward skilled players feinting their opponent to bait a parry/block.

 

[Bernfred]

Yeah the 103 fov is annoying. Its not my normal FoV and 103 is so narrow. I was wondering if there was a actual reasoning.
Game would be so much better if it allowed us a normal 110 FoV.

the reason why they washed down an already low, non-industry-standard FOV of 109 (maybe even higher in the early alpha) to an absolute mess of 103 is because there where 3 people in the past (at maximum) in discord and in the forum who where not ok with the 0.00001% more side distortion on screenshots compared to 103 even tho 109 looks imo better on screenshots....


look who much you saw from the world and your weapon, 109 was the bare minimum and a maximum of 115 would please every 1st person enjoyer, even people who set it back to 103:

 

[PatWins]

Really good post! Can see the effort you put into this. Appreciate it! I have been really doubting the addition of kick, but the way you thought it through might just work out in a balanced way, at least in my mind. Only thing that I thought about was that we also need options with low stam consumption other than swinging a light weapon or theres gonna be alot of standing still or empty walking. I think we also need options for pressuring like the way the current feinting works well when used at the right time, but is not that big of a commitment. So your suggestion nr.7 is the one I would probably like to change the most.

Totally agree to have a feint button on its own though or at least they have to tell the players very clearly that the walk button is a feint button in combat mode. It does not even say on the keybinds so far.

Also think ground bops or hitting something should have slightly lower window for being punished compared to openly whiffing through the air. Partly because there is alot of random obstacles to hit in this game atm that would add alooot of frustration to get your ass whooped due to a small leaf or thin branch that was in the way of your polesword. But also to add something for the player to react with to minimize their punishment after noticing their screw up (dodge might also fill this role perfectly if you are allowed to dodge in such a situation).

Alot can also change with active skills being added in the future. A true counter like you suggested is a great idea i think. Either global or weapon specific skill.

About the charging wheel with 4 stages it kind of rewards players with good timing and you would have to calculate how big of a punish you are able to get if someone whiffed a strike. I also think the 4 stages of a charge has potentially an interesting effect on weapon meta. If it is gradual like bows I feel like there will be a more obvious choice of what weapon is the strongest due to higher dps per milisec charged especially mixed with the other suggestions you wrote.

As I am writing this reply, I feel like the dodge or sidestep mechanic is key to balancing the most of your suggestions. It would heighten the skill ceiling alot by itself also.

Thanks for this thread, Pat! Really hope SV takes their time on this one =)

Thanks for the well thought out response and kind words!! You make a great point regarding the charge wheel. Definitely a good perspective that I failed to consider. Keep up the good work. Love the feedback.

 

[Kovah Temsik]

Worst part about combat right now imo is the 360 degree block/parry, people should be able to stab other people in the back when they spin around like an idiot.

 

[Tzone]

Worst part about combat right now imo is the 360 degree block/parry, people should be able to stab other people in the back when they spin around like an idiot.

I would agree but its very easy to get behind people in this game, probably due to the ping you can see their back before they can realize and turn.
Im not saying no but maybe some testing towards this.

 

[Bernfred]

I would agree but its very easy to get behind people in this game, probably due to the ping you can see their back before they can realize and turn.
Im not saying no but maybe some testing towards this.

exactly but people live in a colored fantasy world without realizing that even rn you get some hits behind your turned block due to latency. also people dont know that the wide block radius gives smaller groups a better chance to win outnumbered.
also dodge and such funny moves are either broken or a waste of stamina.

 

[Bernfred]

i would like to see chip damage through a parry when you charge an attack for a longer time, maybe together with a 2nd animation state after the first circle is full.
this would also add he ability to use a parry as a time shortener for the heavy attack without relying on broken animations. imo it makes sense on paper.