magic reflect changes. do you like it?

[Tashka]

Let's see what this change has achieved:
- It nerfed offensive mage playstyle in small scale. JuSt SpUrT takes 2-3 seconds per enemy, and you lose some (very little, but still) hp to reflect. 2-3 seconds sometimes can decide the outcome of a small scale encounter.
- It nerfed offensive mages in large scale, you can't realistically JuSt SpUrT when the enemy team is 15+ people
- It nerfed human hybrids even more, as they don't have the movespeed to cast second spell after they JuSt SpUrT
- It didn't do much to 5 fatmages instakilling a footie that Ratagast is so upset with, 1 spell gets reflected and the other 4 kill the footie. Still, it's 5 people killing 1 guy, the outcome is usually clear no matter what classes are involved
- It even nerfed support mages, as they now need to cast reflect on their whole group before every encounter and hope they'll have the time to regen all that mana
- It reinforced the idea that mages are there only for support purposes, i.e. healing slaves, and now reflect slaves too
- It dumbed down a perfectly balanced spell that had been used cleverly despite what people say, and made the game just worse

It's funny really. We have glaring balance issues in this game. Poleswords are shit for their 200 points, one handed are mostly shit, humans are shit, weight classes that aren't stout are underpowered, terror birds are OP, medium armors almost never used, etc etc. And what was SV's response? Reflect changes that i've never personally seen or heard anyone ever asked for. Literally never i heard anyone saying: "hey, why is reflect triggered by beneficial spells, it's so unbalanced pls fix Henrik". Maybe someone did, but it was never a big issue unlike the ones listed above.

We just got this change and were offered no explanation for why it was needed. Well footies who make 90% of the population are happy, so i don't expect anything to be done about it within the next few months, if ever.

 

[Banespike]

Let's see what this change has achieved:
- It nerfed offensive mage playstyle in small scale. JuSt SpUrT takes 2-3 seconds per enemy, and you lose some (very little, but still) hp to reflect. 2-3 seconds sometimes can decide the outcome of a small scale encounter.
- It nerfed offensive mages in large scale, you can't realistically JuSt SpUrT when the enemy team is 15+ people
- It nerfed human hybrids even more, as they don't have the movespeed to cast second spell after they JuSt SpUrT
- It didn't do much to 5 fatmages instakilling a footie that Ratagast is so upset with, 1 spell gets reflected and the other 4 kill the footie. Still, it's 5 people killing 1 guy, the outcome is usually clear no matter what classes are involved
- It even nerfed support mages, as they now need to cast reflect on their whole group before every encounter and hope they'll have the time to regen all that mana
- It reinforced the idea that mages are there only for support purposes, i.e. healing slaves, and now reflect slaves too
- It dumbed down a perfectly balanced spell that had been used cleverly despite what people say, and made the game just worse

It's funny really. We have glaring balance issues in this game. Poleswords are shit for their 200 points, one handed are mostly shit, humans are shit, weight classes that aren't stout are underpowered, terror birds are OP, medium armors almost never used, etc etc. And what was SV's response? Reflect changes that i've never personally seen or heard anyone ever asked for. Literally never i heard anyone saying: "hey, why is reflect triggered by beneficial spells, it's so unbalanced pls fix Henrik". Maybe someone did, but it was never a big issue unlike the ones listed above.

We just got this change and were offered no explanation for why it was needed. Well footies who make 90% of the population are happy, so i don't expect anything to be done about it within the next few months, if ever.

I agree on most here. I don’t know who asked for that change. It was fine like it was before change.

 

[Emdash]

Let's see what this change has achieved:
- It nerfed offensive mage playstyle in small scale. JuSt SpUrT takes 2-3 seconds per enemy, and you lose some (very little, but still) hp to reflect. 2-3 seconds sometimes can decide the outcome of a small scale encounter.
- It nerfed offensive mages in large scale, you can't realistically JuSt SpUrT when the enemy team is 15+ people
- It nerfed human hybrids even more, as they don't have the movespeed to cast second spell after they JuSt SpUrT
- It didn't do much to 5 fatmages instakilling a footie that Ratagast is so upset with, 1 spell gets reflected and the other 4 kill the footie. Still, it's 5 people killing 1 guy, the outcome is usually clear no matter what classes are involved
- It even nerfed support mages, as they now need to cast reflect on their whole group before every encounter and hope they'll have the time to regen all that mana
- It reinforced the idea that mages are there only for support purposes, i.e. healing slaves, and now reflect slaves too
- It dumbed down a perfectly balanced spell that had been used cleverly despite what people say, and made the game just worse

It's funny really. We have glaring balance issues in this game. Poleswords are shit for their 200 points, one handed are mostly shit, humans are shit, weight classes that aren't stout are underpowered, terror birds are OP, medium armors almost never used, etc etc. And what was SV's response? Reflect changes that i've never personally seen or heard anyone ever asked for. Literally never i heard anyone saying: "hey, why is reflect triggered by beneficial spells, it's so unbalanced pls fix Henrik". Maybe someone did, but it was never a big issue unlike the ones listed above.

We just got this change and were offered no explanation for why it was needed. Well footies who make 90% of the population are happy, so i don't expect anything to be done about it within the next few months, if ever.

You know, the Jungle horse spawn just down Jungle ramp, it's true that jungle horses were trash (altho they might not be as trashy not w/ stam changes,) but people have built up all sorts of structures there. What has begun appearing? Mongrel horses! I heard they like houses! No, but it's almost like... mongrels were put there for the convenience of the people in those TC structures. That should help you understand some balance changes.

 

[Hodo]

Let's see what this change has achieved:
- It nerfed offensive mage playstyle in small scale. JuSt SpUrT takes 2-3 seconds per enemy, and you lose some (very little, but still) hp to reflect. 2-3 seconds sometimes can decide the outcome of a small scale encounter.
- It nerfed offensive mages in large scale, you can't realistically JuSt SpUrT when the enemy team is 15+ people
- It nerfed human hybrids even more, as they don't have the movespeed to cast second spell after they JuSt SpUrT
- It didn't do much to 5 fatmages instakilling a footie that Ratagast is so upset with, 1 spell gets reflected and the other 4 kill the footie. Still, it's 5 people killing 1 guy, the outcome is usually clear no matter what classes are involved
- It even nerfed support mages, as they now need to cast reflect on their whole group before every encounter and hope they'll have the time to regen all that mana
- It reinforced the idea that mages are there only for support purposes, i.e. healing slaves, and now reflect slaves too
- It dumbed down a perfectly balanced spell that had been used cleverly despite what people say, and made the game just worse

It's funny really. We have glaring balance issues in this game. Poleswords are shit for their 200 points, one handed are mostly shit, humans are shit, weight classes that aren't stout are underpowered, terror birds are OP, medium armors almost never used, etc etc. And what was SV's response? Reflect changes that i've never personally seen or heard anyone ever asked for. Literally never i heard anyone saying: "hey, why is reflect triggered by beneficial spells, it's so unbalanced pls fix Henrik". Maybe someone did, but it was never a big issue unlike the ones listed above.

We just got this change and were offered no explanation for why it was needed. Well footies who make 90% of the population are happy, so i don't expect anything to be done about it within the next few months, if ever.

This is all true.

And to be quite frank, its because Henrik barely plays his own game let alone understands what is going on in the meta of his game. He still believes that Alvarins are completely balanced, yet for some odd reason 80% of the people who were with him on stream were Alvarin.

 

[Tashka]

Well it's not all bad, we've got necro after all. Now we can blind ourselves, damage ourselves while healing enemies, disrupt our own mana or stamina regen, it really opens a world of possibilities for mages.

 

[Jasa]

I like the changes, however I think it can be another spell. We have lost the utility of Magic Reflect as a skill. This is just like Overwatch removing Mercies Bunnyhop and making into a telegraphed 'Shoot me' + now have a 100% guarantee that a team will have this spell up. We should be returning the old reflect, though I like the new one.

Magic Reflect; Same as it was before patch

Healing Barrier: Eats one negative spell (and or Halfing the Damage) but healing spells can cast through it and make it 90-100 ecu.

Having both effects in one spell is just too strong, and I believe mages are weak. The change just made it, so mages are forced to be healbots in pvp or be paranoid and cast spurt telegraphing to a foot fighter 'Hey a mage is about to bang you' It is already hard to get 1-2 casts off before a foot fighter decides to be your dance partner.

Idk I might be a little crazy thinking mages are weak, but this is over the line.

 

[Nefnate]

I think people just need to adapt. The major complaint before was that "magic is too strong / instant damage isn't fair", now, if you're with a group, you should at least get spurted before taking heavy mage fire (though a group of mages only needs 1 to spurt...) which gives you some room for counter play.

It takes a very small amount of time to cast spurt to check reflects. It costs a fair amount of mana comparatively to throw up a reflect. I see this as no different to every mage running around with a massive shield now... get used to it, it adds another bit of nuance to fighting that leans more on thought than brute force.

 

[Hodo]

I think people just need to adapt. The major complaint before was that "magic is too strong / instant damage isn't fair", now, if you're with a group, you should at least get spurted before taking heavy mage fire (though a group of mages only needs 1 to spurt...) which gives you some room for counter play.

It takes a very small amount of time to cast spurt to check reflects. It costs a fair amount of mana comparatively to throw up a reflect. I see this as no different to every mage running around with a massive shield now... get used to it, it adds another bit of nuance to fighting that leans more on thought than brute force.

No one ever said magic is too strong. And if they did they never played a mage.

 

[Tashka]

The major complaint before was that "magic is too strong / instant damage isn't fair"

Which was always major bs. Footies just got used to fighting other footies and everything that isn't a footie becomes overpowered and unfair because it breaks their parryspin loop. It's easy to counter a mage, any mage, dex, fat, mounted, any. Two mages vs 1 footie is indeed strong, but it's a very specific situation that happens once in a millenia.

 

[Hodo]

Which was always major bs. Footies just got used to fighting other footies and everything that isn't a footie becomes overpowered and unfair because it breaks their parryspin loop. It's easy to counter a mage, any mage, dex, fat, mounted, any. Two mages vs 1 footie is indeed strong, but it's a very specific situation that happens once in a millenia.

Fact is 2 v 1 of anything is always strong. I mean two melee fighters vs one melee fighter.. of course the two are going to be stronger. I hate when Melee fighters cry about two mages killing them.

 

[Tashka]

Fact is 2 v 1 of anything is always strong. I mean two melee fighters vs one melee fighter.. of course the two are going to be stronger. I hate when Melee fighters cry about two mages killing them.

Well there's really very little counter to 2 dex mages vs anything non-alvarin, and even alvarins have tough time. It's not like 1 vs 2 melee, they'll just harass you to death wether you try to kill them (you try to kill one and get damaged by other) or flee (both just outburst/corrupt you to death). Still, even then the fight can take VEEERY long time, enough for guildies to come to your aid if they aren't too far.

But again, this situation is extremely rare, and 1 mage vs 2 melee alvarins, which happens much more often, isn't much better for the mage.

Mages are only situationally good, in some situations they can be very good, but again, all classes have situations where they're extremely strong. But the only class that is *universally* strong is a footie. I had what, 2k hours on a footie? They almost have no downsides, barely any weaknesses, shine everywhere, yet melee purists insist that just because some class excels in a very specific situation it should be gimped in all other aspects, and even in that specific situation it should be nerfed, hence "reflect is ok".

 

[Albanjo Dravae]

I think people just need to adapt. The major complaint before was that "magic is too strong / instant damage isn't fair", now, if you're with a group, you should at least get spurted before taking heavy mage fire (though a group of mages only needs 1 to spurt...) which gives you some room for counter play.

It takes a very small amount of time to cast spurt to check reflects. It costs a fair amount of mana comparatively to throw up a reflect. I see this as no different to every mage running around with a massive shield now... get used to it, it adds another bit of nuance to fighting that leans more on thought than brute force.

Theres no thought or strategy on having to spam either reflect or spurts, it just cripples mages utility and forces them to be shitty support, while before reflect was situational and might even get someone killed if they reflected a required heal.

You come here, a space of debate to say "get used to it", instead of actually talk about what's being debated.

It's just dumbing down a mechanic that wasn't fine but it definitely didn't require this careless change.

This is what happens when they make changes without thinking, different thing would have been to balance and buff support gamestyle for mages instead of forcing them to throw reflects.

Reflect had more strategic use before, prove wrong.

 

[Hodo]

Well there's really very little counter to 2 dex mages vs anything non-alvarin, and even alvarins have tough time. It's not like 1 vs 2 melee, they'll just harass you to death wether you try to kill them (you try to kill one and get damaged by other) or flee (both just outburst/corrupt you to death). Still, even then the fight can take VEEERY long time, enough for guildies to come to your aid if they aren't too far.

But again, this situation is extremely rare, and 1 mage vs 2 melee alvarins, which happens much more often, isn't much better for the mage.

Mages are only situationally good, in some situations they can be very good, but again, all classes have situations where they're extremely strong. But the only class that is *universally* strong is a footie. I had what, 2k hours on a footie? They almost have no downsides, barely any weaknesses, shine everywhere, yet melee purists insist that just because some class excels in a very specific situation it should be gimped in all other aspects, and even in that specific situation it should be nerfed, hence "reflect is ok".

2 Dex Veelas can pick apart a single Ogh, Thursar or human or even an Alvarin with ease. A pair of Thursars can beat down one of anyone who cant run from it. Same for Oghmirs. Humans would be hard pressed but even they can do it.

It doesnt matter if it is a pair of dex mages, fat mages, foot fighters, archers or even a mix. 2v1 will always have he advantage.

 

[Calcal]

I hate the MR changes. It’s another middle finger to mages. Want to engage in combat and actually do more than be a heal bot… no now spam mr and must spurt everyone. It’s beyond bad. I’m inching closer to being done with MO2.

 

[Calcal]

Well it's not all bad, we've got necro after all. Now we can blind ourselves, damage ourselves while healing enemies, disrupt our own mana or stamina regen, it really opens a world of possibilities for mages.

Good luck hitting any of those spells. On the 10th try you hit and blind yourself. F this game’s magic system.

 

[Jasa]

The problem is that in most cases a Mage only has the ability to get off 1-2 spells unless they are a Dex Elf when confronted by anyone in melee. Currently the only way to survive as a mage is to be a footy of some level and block/parry until someone comes and saves you while you chip away with 5-10 dmg on a footfighter who is going to laugh at the damage or you are playing a "Dagger Mage" in which case you are a Spell/rogue Hybrid not a mage, "I cast dagger." said the mage. We are not allowed to NUKE with these changes. Mages running into any group with larger numbers loses since all you need to do is dance with a mage and they are out of commission. All you need to do against a party of mages or mixed is have just one person on the mage and you force 2 people out of the fight or a greeted kill on a mage.

Image if a mage had an ability where they Stasis lock you & Themselves and you have to play a minigame of dispelling orbs like the Ether in order to get free and you are taking 10 dmg every 5s and when you Frick up the minigame you take 50+ dmg. The mage on the other hand has to just keep casting the spell to make more orbs for you to dispel and they cast as quickly or quicker than you can dispel and the only way to be saved is a MAGE to walk up and cast cleanse since you cannot. EVERYONE would be pissed, that is the game mages play in 1v1s and team fights, its not fun.

Henrik talking about shields applying to armor weight is now opening the door for only Dex/Dagger/Hybrids Mages to exist. Investing 100 points in Combat Maneuvering + Blocking + Armor Training & Melee Primary to some degree is now being considered not enough and now you have to do it without a shield or just accept that your Mana regen was not that important to begin with since you will die OOM or at full mana.

The tools for Mages to unfrick themselves are pets, Being a tamer is cost intensive primary wise, and its like playing a Dominator since you need to go back out there and re-dom some poor chicken nugget or buy it off the broker like a redheaded orphan. But wait Domination is supposed to have POWERFUL pets that you do not get as a tamer. Then again Domination does not even work so good luck. Necromancy perhaps? Reagents are too hard to get and unless your sweaty or rich good luck getting the reagents. Also pipe dream to become a Ritualist. I've been away from the game for just a few days? yet I doubt this has been fixed or will be anytime soon.

So the only viable strat to play as a mage that needs things that are not implemented or its too damn hard to get and you are even more rare than a Thursar Mage. Hear me out, perhaps reflect is just the tipping point for some people, MAGE is getting worse before it gets better. Concentration had a stealth nerf so death handing your way out is not viable, unless again you're a dex mage in which case you did not have any problems getting away alive.

I'd say fuck it and change concentration to a Primary that costs 300 and make it 100% guaranteed you do not get interrupted as an April Fools joke just to see it happen. I'd rather spend 300 primary points on something that works, than play a class that causes me to need alcohol to enjoy. I'm getting to that point of quitting, and I've spent 13 years sucking Blizzards Ego and saying 'It's not them it's the investors'

Mages are sticking around on Copium of when they get the thing it solves the issue. However we got necromancy, and it is not solving issues. We have ritualism and the people with it are not winning fights. We know Taming will get better and we just need it, but taming has not been addressed. Domination is coming with UR5:Soon:

I just woke up on the right side of the bed, but Please god SV, Henrik I beg you. If I can wake up in a good mood, and your game makes me not in a good mood. Then I think this relationship is toxic. I really do not want to give up on MO2, but you make it so easy to want too.

 

[Tashka]

I'm amazed that they aren't changing it. Robmo says the new reflect stays, Henrik ignores all questions regarding reflect, like wtf is happening? Keeping reflect as it is now is one of the most idiotic decisions that SV made, it competes in stupidity with the decision that GMs will not remove houses on owner's request. There were some pretty dumb decisions in the past, like removal of red priests near towns, but they at least gave un an explanation, there was at least some logic behind those. But things like reflect change or houses issue are just incomprehensible, there's no logic behind them whatsoever, there's no explanation given. It's like someone in SV is responsible for intentionally coming up with ideas that would make the game just worse.

 

[Tzone]

Yeah IDK why they just double down on these things. I dont really care about the reflect changes but when the best mages and ingeneral competent players are asking for a revert you should listen and revert now instead of in half a year.

The red priest changes almost killed the game and they didn't do anything to alleviate the issue untill months late and tons of damage was done to the population.

They should just listen to the community more instead of just doubling down so much. Its only hurting their population.

 

[Tashka]

People who say "just spurt" seem to not understand how magic works.

A footie who needs a heal, purify, or reflect will try to help mages by at least ensuring they have LOS on them, not moving erratically etc.
But offensive magic is opportunistic by nature. Tlash charges for over 3 seconds, by that time it's very possible that you'll lose LOS to your chosen target. The bigger the fight, the more chances of this happening. You can spurt several people, but again, the bigger the fight, the more people you need to spurt, if it's 10 vs 10 you can't just be standing there spurting them all. Before reflect changes, you'd just discharge at a different enemy as to not waste time. But now, you need to basically chose a specific target in advance by spurting it.

So you cast spurt, thus chosing your target. That takes around 2 seconds. For the sake of the mind experiment, i'll assume everyone is a valorant/overwatch/whatever vet and a perfect lightspeed flicker so aiming takes no time at all, which isn't really true. Now that you have chosen your target, you charge your tlash, which takes over 3 seconds. But after 3 seconds, you've lost LOS to the target, or it's surrounded by friendlies and the chance of accidentially hitting them is too high. So what are your options now?

1) Gamble and discharge at another target. He probably has reflect so you damage yourself for 45 or something. Now you need to heal yourself, which takes 1 greater heal, which takes over 2 seconds. Good: you dispel reflect from another enemy. Bad: you damaged yourself, opening the opportunity for enemy divers to kill you easier. Time wasted: 7+ seconds.

2) Wait until you regain LOS on target. Good: you'll probably hit the target, eventually. Bad: maybe not if you're dived or someone needs an emergency heal. Time wasted: unknown.

3) Cancel the spell and proceed to be a healing slave. Good: None. Bad: you're a slave. Time wasted: 5+ seconds.

 

[Emdash]

they will have to revert eventually imo.