Magic and PvP

[syldor]

I am trying the pure mage build for somePvP.
The most frustrating thing (apart the lack of spells but we know that they are coming soon) is the fact that a tank in full armour can do the same spells I do. So at the very end they can cast a magic reflect at least a couple of times in a PvP while I will spend most of my time running and casting Spurt (or whatyoumaycallit) before even having a chance to start the fight. I think it is unbalanced and unrealistic, as far as "realistic" a fantasy setting can be. At least, in most of the fantasy saga I read when I was a boy (maaaaaany years ago, unfortunately) it was as easy as that: mage=spells, no armour; fighter=no spells, armour. And it was fair.
My two cents, of course

 

[BleckCat]

we have all skill now. we wont in future.

 

[Evelyn]

Keep in mind that Magic Reflect has a much higher mana cost than Spurt and takes longer to cast. If you're doing formal team practices yeah everyone will have magic up reflect beforehand but it's not always going to be that way.

Personally I think trading my tiny amount of mana for the cost of their magic reflect is a pretty nice trade. They'll miss that mana when you toss Corrupt on them.

 

[Kaemik]

The most frustrating thing (apart the lack of spells but we know that they are coming soon) is the fact that a tank in full armour can do the same spells I do.

You have essentially no mana regen in heavy armor. Mana regen is like 50% of base by the time you reach like 8ish weight. Even stam armor (Armor with 100% stam regen) has terrible mana regen. Compounded upon the fact that base mana regen is based on total mana pool (governed by psyche and int) a full armor caster is almost like a D&D mages with spells per day (Or encounter more realistically since a full rest restores mana) and not many spells before they are out.

While a full mage in ultra-light armor can cast many more spells and regenerate enough mana to cast more during the fight.

I do feel like full mages in light armor though have pretty slow mana regen despite all the factors pulling for them though. Rather than nerfing paladins which are perfectly balanced IMO I'd like to see full mages buffed in terms of mana regen. Possibly as a function of robes both to make them better and encourage mages investing in their armor.

 

[syldor]

a full armor caster is almost like a D&D mages with spells per day (Or encounter more realistically since a full rest restores mana) and not many spells before they are out.

Yes but.... d&d mages cannot wear armours, again

 

[bbihah]

Yes but.... d&d mages cannot wear armours, again

Err, they can. There is little to no restrictions on wizards wearing armor in D&D. Its usually that they can gain about the same AC through spells without the penalties that armor bring. Add multi-class and get the bonuses from spell casting armor heavy classes like cleric and you can be a chunky platey wizard boi if you want....

 

[syldor]

You are probably too young to remember the D&D of Gary Gygax (late 70’)

 

[bbihah]

You are probably too young to remember the D&D of Gary Gygax (late 70’)

You generalized and said D&D, not 1st edition D&D.


And going on your discriminatory statement. You are probably too old to have gone to school.

 

[Jackdstripper]

the biggest problem imo right now with mages is that you consume mana and reagents even when you fizzle due to missing your target. this is retarded as mages have to stand still to cast, AND get interrupted if they get hit. on top of that most spells have a relatively short range that if exceeded will also fizzle your spell. there is no way to know if you are close enough, you just have to guestimate. so yea, fizzling is very common as a mage especially in a battle situation where everyone is moving constantly. losing mana every time you misjudge distance, or aim slightly off, is a bit much imo.

to OP. liek Blackcat said, when the game goes live you'll only have 1100 action (primary) skills in total, so full fighters (heavy plate) wont be able to have magic. hybrids will be able to have some minor spells (reflect, corrupt, minor heal), and a bit of mana regen but will also be forced to wear very light armor and have similar HP as a mage. so yea it will be much different then. having said that, mages were never really good at 1vs1 against fighters/hybrids especially if potions are implemented. mages shine in group pvp where they can stay in teh back lines and support the fighters.

 

[Ruthless]

the biggest problem imo right now with mages is that you consume mana and reagents even when you fizzle due to missing your target. this is retarded as mages have to stand still to cast, AND get interrupted if they get hit. on top of that most spells have a relatively short range that if exceeded will also fizzle your spell. there is no way to know if you are close enough, you just have to guestimate. so yea, fizzling is very common as a mage especially in a battle situation where everyone is moving constantly. losing mana every time you misjudge distance, or aim slightly off, is a bit much imo.

Agreed.

There's very little incentive to play mage. They should balance the 3 main types (melee/archer/mage) so they're all viable in a 1v1 PVP situation. Mages have so much going against them.

Where is the trade off? You'd think given the disadvantages you'd be able to 1 shot someone.

 

[pooternackle]

Agreed.

There's very little incentive to play mage. They should balance the 3 main types (melee/archer/mage) so they're all viable in a 1v1 PVP situation. Mages have so much going against them.

Where is the trade off? You'd think given the disadvantages you'd be able to 1 shot someone.

You also have to be morbidly obese in order to be viable as a pure mage. Bony only gives +10 and takes you down around 75hp and some psyche in exchange for a little bit of run speed.

 

[BongRips]

the biggest problem imo right now with mages is that you consume mana and reagents even when you fizzle due to missing your target. this is retarded as mages have to stand still to cast, AND get interrupted if they get hit. on top of that most spells have a relatively short range that if exceeded will also fizzle your spell. there is no way to know if you are close enough, you just have to guestimate. so yea, fizzling is very common as a mage especially in a battle situation where everyone is moving constantly. losing mana every time you misjudge distance, or aim slightly off, is a bit much imo.

to OP. liek Blackcat said, when the game goes live you'll only have 1100 action (primary) skills in total, so full fighters (heavy plate) wont be able to have magic. hybrids will be able to have some minor spells (reflect, corrupt, minor heal), and a bit of mana regen but will also be forced to wear very light armor and have similar HP as a mage. so yea it will be much different then. having said that, mages were never really good at 1vs1 against fighters/hybrids especially if potions are implemented. mages shine in group pvp where they can stay in teh back lines and support the fighters.

I have run across a few kite master mages, but I have to agree with you here.

 

[Trazil]

Mages are incredibly cheap to gear apart from getting the spells once later magic schools are implemented and costing some reagents, most of which you can buy from a vendor for barely anything isn't really a downside at all. You do still have armor but some armor made from scales and silks is significantly faster and easier to produce than the metal armors full footfighters wear. That's one of your benefits of being extremely cheap to gear for each fight. Secondly magic damage ignores armor and if you coordinate it well you can blow someone up instantly no matter what gear they're wearing. They may not be the best 1v1 classes but they don't need to be. They're incredible supports and damage dealers when they have the space and are an absolute must have for any larger scale fight.

Also your character doesn't need to be obese to be a viable mage, you're just trading speed to stack extra int and make your spells even more effective and typically those mages are played as mounteds to cancel out that penalty anyway. You can be plenty viable with a dex mage and move a bit faster than almost all footfighters.

 

[pooternackle]

Also your character doesn't need to be obese to be a viable mage, you're just trading speed to stack extra int and make your spells even more effective and typically those mages are played as mounteds to cancel out that penalty anyway. You can be plenty viable with a dex mage and move a bit faster than almost all footfighters.

There is no way to generate a viable pure mage that is bony. It just can't be done. Oghmir is the only clade that will give you tolerable hp (i.e. over 100), but they lack the attribute points to commit to dex, unless you choose to forgo psych/a mana pool. And if you do that, the low dex cap will mean you will still be outrun.

 

[bbihah]

Outrun and outrun, movement is very different in mo2 than it was in mo1.
In mo1 the highest dex character was about 10% faster than your average 104 dex character fighter. In mo2 the fastest possible dex character(131, 428 cm/s) vs a stout oghmir(89, 400 ) is only 7% faster, Dex is actually quite a lacking stat now as the movement speed is much closer between the clades. If you have above 85 dex you are probably not going to have any big issues even against full dex veelas.

If you compare to fat mages, then you see almost the difference that you did between a veela fighter and a normal fighter in mo1, and thats between the slowest and fastest characters that you would realistically see in game.

 

[Ruthless]

Mages are incredibly cheap to gear apart from getting the spells once later magic schools are implemented and costing some reagents, most of which you can buy from a vendor for barely anything isn't really a downside at all. You do still have armor but some armor made from scales and silks is significantly faster and easier to produce than the metal armors full footfighters wear. That's one of your benefits of being extremely cheap to gear for each fight. Secondly magic damage ignores armor and if you coordinate it well you can blow someone up instantly no matter what gear they're wearing. They may not be the best 1v1 classes but they don't need to be. They're incredible supports and damage dealers when they have the space and are an absolute must have for any larger scale fight.

Also your character doesn't need to be obese to be a viable mage, you're just trading speed to stack extra int and make your spells even more effective and typically those mages are played as mounteds to cancel out that penalty anyway. You can be plenty viable with a dex mage and move a bit faster than almost all footfighters.

In a PvP focused game such as this I think it's incredibly important to balance the classes in such a way to allow them to survive a 1v1 situation vs others. Currently, if you wish to stand a chance in this situation then you'll have to roll a Warrior.

Your point regarding armor is fair. Warriors cost more to outfit and that's their only real disadvantage.

However, mages can’t move while casting, long cast times, fizzle if you miss, cancel or get hit, rely on reagents, loss of inventory space, low speed, low carry weight, low armor, difficulty with PvE etc.

Mages do benefit from the spell not being blocked but psych reduces the damage.

Overall, mages are seriously lacking the ability to defend themselves in a 1v1 situation. Shit, they can't even run away.

 

[Trazil]

There is no way to generate a viable pure mage that is bony. It just can't be done. Oghmir is the only clade that will give you tolerable hp (i.e. over 100), but they lack the attribute points to commit to dex, unless you choose to forgo psych/a mana pool. And if you do that, the low dex cap will mean you will still be outrun.

I never said bony, I said you didn't have to be obese which is the maximum weight. You can be stout or overweight and still be faster than most foot fighters.

In a PvP focused game such as this I think it's incredibly important to balance the classes in such a way to allow them to survive a 1v1 situation vs others. Currently, if you wish to stand a chance in this situation then you'll have to roll a Warrior.

Your point regarding armor is fair. Warriors cost more to outfit and that's their only real disadvantage.

However, mages can’t move while casting, long cast times, fizzle if you miss, cancel or get hit, rely on reagents, loss of inventory space, low speed, low carry weight, low armor, difficulty with PvE etc.

Mages do benefit from the spell not being blocked but psych reduces the damage.

Overall, mages are seriously lacking the ability to defend themselves in a 1v1 situation. Shit, they can't even run away.

This is a guild oriented game and they are balanced for group fights, not everything needs to be amazing for 1v1s. They can't move while prepping spells with the ecumenical school but this will be different with different schools for example necromancy allowed you to move while casting. I don't understand that point about fizzling if you miss because if you miss you shouldn't be rewarded? Getting hit can only cancel while you're prepping the spell. The inventory thing won't really be an issue at all when you're able to just put your reagents in a bag and I think it's funny when reagents are listed as a disadvantage at all when they're incredibly cheap and extremely easy to obtain relative to anything else. Again you don't have to be incredibly slow like that since int doesn't really scale after 60 until you stack it pretty heavily so you do have the attribute points. Also I'm assuming later on again pve will just boil down to you having a pet attack while you heal it and anything that requires a group you'd have a mage for anyway which I wouldn't say is weak for pve exactly.

Also most people have psych as their lowest stat and that's just where their remaining points go if they even have any so I wouldn't really count that as a point. If you coordinate damage you can instantly kill anyone regardless of their armor.

 

[Ruthless]

I never said bony, I said you didn't have to be obese which is the maximum weight. You can be stout or overweight and still be faster than most foot fighters.


This is a guild oriented game and they are balanced for group fights, not everything needs to be amazing for 1v1s. They can't move while prepping spells with the ecumenical school but this will be different with different schools for example necromancy allowed you to move while casting. I don't understand that point about fizzling if you miss because if you miss you shouldn't be rewarded? Getting hit can only cancel while you're prepping the spell. The inventory thing won't really be an issue at all when you're able to just put your reagents in a bag and I think it's funny when reagents are listed as a disadvantage at all when they're incredibly cheap and extremely easy to obtain relative to anything else. Again you don't have to be incredibly slow like that since int doesn't really scale after 60 until you stack it pretty heavily so you do have the attribute points. Also I'm assuming later on again pve will just boil down to you having a pet attack while you heal it and anything that requires a group you'd have a mage for anyway which I wouldn't say is weak for pve exactly.

Also most people have psych as their lowest stat and that's just where their remaining points go if they even have any so I wouldn't really count that as a point. If you coordinate damage you can instantly kill anyone regardless of their armor.

I had to reread the description of the game again, just to be sure. Yeah, it did not put an emphasis on guilds in anyway. It does says "choose your path" etc. Perhaps, someone didn't get the memo? Games clearly indicate guilds being the focus if that's the type of game play they're going for. Anyway, it's clear you're not an advocate for balanced game play in terms of 1v1. I get you're worried about your guild group PvP but sometimes people choose the path of playing solo and since it litterialy states that I hope it can be balanced for both 1v1 and group zerg fests.

 

[Trazil]

I had to reread the description of the game again, just to be sure. Yeah, it did not put an emphasis on guilds in anyway. It does says "choose your path" etc. Perhaps, someone didn't get the memo? Games clearly indicate guilds being the focus if that's the type of game play they're going for. Anyway, it's clear you're not an advocate for balanced game play in terms of 1v1. I get you're worried about your guild group PvP but sometimes people choose the path of playing solo and since it litterialy states that I hope it can be balanced for both 1v1 and group zerg fests.

The game is balanced around those larger aspects. People are free to choose what they want but it of course comes with pros and cons. You could look at mages as being an extremely easy thing for a solo player since you can just get armor crafting and not have to do any weapon crafting, just pick up some taming/dom and you're good to go and can self sustain very very easily and is a viable option. 1v1s are an incredibly small part of the game as even if you're solo you're much more likely to run into groups rather than another solo player and if you change the balance to cater towards that then you obviously change it towards group fights as well which are a much larger part of the game (which it does talk about with the territory control in the FAQ). I'd be much more concerned about every class being viable in given circumstances which I'd say is accurate.

 

[Ruthless]

... You could look at mages as being an extremely easy thing for a solo player since you can just get armor crafting and not have to do any weapon crafting, just pick up some taming/dom and you're good to go and can self sustain very very easily and is a viable option. 1v1s are an incredibly small part of the game as even if you're solo you're much more likely to run into groups rather than another solo player and if you change the balance to cater towards that then you obviously change it towards group fights as well which are a much larger part of the game (which it does talk about with the territory control in the FAQ). I'd be much more concerned about every class being viable in given circumstances which I'd say is accurate.

You're serious? Have you been following the forums? The vast majority disagree with your assertion of a mage being easy for both PvE and PvP. Thinking that not needing to craft weapons makes them easy is beyond ridiculous when weighting each classes pros and cons.

The argument that the classes should not be balanced due to a delusional idea that the game is meant for guild only PvP and thus we should sacrifice balance for anything but is absurd.

You mention viability but only in group fights. You're dismissing 1v1 type situations completely for your group battles. It's a small part of the game from your perspective, sure. Anyway, I get where you are coming from but I'm simply asking that both be balanced (Yes, it's possible) and I'm not sure why you're ok with anything other than that. Asking that all classes are balanced so they can have a fair shot at defending themselves 1v1 especially in a PvP focused game like this isa completely rational request.