How to raise the skill ceiling

[Eldrath]

There is counter play to "spamming" since last patch tho, if you land your counter you can parry again immediately, so its very much possible to parry -> hit -> parry again before they can land their next spam swing.

Yeah a few people have used that against me when I was spamming and it is very effective.

So spamming is only really an option if the other players is bad or for some reason you both believe hit trading will win you the fight. So it´s not really the answer to the lack offensive options. It´s better than before non the less.

 

[Teknique]

There is counter play to "spamming" since last patch tho, if you land your counter you can parry again immediately, so its very much possible to parry -> hit -> parry again before they can land their next spam swing.

It doesn't work super great in that, that swing has to be greatly accelerated to have time for everything to register before you get hit, but still feels good as fuck when you land it.

 

[ThaBadMan]

What I like with this patch is the small delay after wiffing a swing, so if you time a swing correctly you get a guarranteed hit.

 

[Bernfred]

This sounds good on paper, but what happens in game is that heavy weapons become the norm and no one bothers to block. (And then mounted combat comes along and there is nothing someone on foot can do.)

its exagerated but this is not negative its the key because you want that people use slower weapons without making fast weapons useless (more attacks per second). a fair one server game needs to favour slower weapons.

it would push agressive playstyle, gear choice is more important and people still need to block because you still have an advantage with a parry hit.
mounted combat needs to be balanced with dismounting mechanics.
fights would be so much more better because people dont stare and look for the first hit they would constantly try to use this mechanic.

 

[Keurk]

this is extremly scary to read tbh

Anyone find it very scary as i do when they say their combat core features are here and complete and they gonna go on others aspects of the game ? Im very worried about henrik thinking there is no issue with combat and imo, the things a lot of us are waiting like combat move and stuff like that should be actually in this"core combat"
Saying it is mostly impossible to notice diff between EU and US is also a blatant lie
Are they going the lie publicity road again?
@Henrik Nyström

why make it way prettier than what it is ?

While the network and latencies issues did improve greatly, the combat is severely lacking diversity atm and favorising the parry turtling more than ever, like ever, even when it was top mechanik in MO it was less parry lands than it is on MO2

 

[Eldrath]

this is extremly scary to read tbh

Anyone find it very scary as i do when they say their combat core features are here and complete and they gonna go on others aspects of the game ? Im very worried about henrik thinking there is no issue with combat and imo, the things a lot of us are waiting like combat move and stuff like that should be actually in this"core combat"
Saying it is mostly impossible to notice diff between EU and US is also a blatant lie
Are they going the lie publicity road again?
@Henrik Nyström

why make it way prettier than what it is ?

While the network and latencies issues did improve greatly, the combat is severely lacking diversity atm and favorising the parry turtling more than ever, like ever, even when it was top mechanik in MO it was less parry lands than it is on MO2

I think combat is complete from a technical perspective, from here it will be mostly tweaking. Which might mean that speed stays where it is currently at and that gave me the idea to start this thread. Whenever @Henrik Nyström writes something like this you have to keep in mind that he is talking about MMOs and SVs solution seems very good according to many I´ve talked to. Is it as good as we would hope? Nope. But personally I think it´s good enough at this point.

Obviously this is also advertisement and so they have to make it look good without blatantly telling untruths. While it´s not "mostly impossible" combat is smoother after the last patch. It´s also very slow.

Your last point is spot on and I would invite you to add to your ideas to have more diversity and improve offensive play.

 

[Dracu]

There is counter play to "spamming" since last patch tho, if you land your counter you can parry again immediately, so its very much possible to parry -> hit -> parry again before they can land their next spam swing.

Its working unreliably and only really in 1v1, the changes i suggested are not only aimed at 1v1 as its one of the least important.

You have a slower weapon then your enemy? Then he may even hit you faster and parry your counter.

Enemy has a long spear and plays on range hit n run? Nope you cant instantly swing your counter.

Latency also factors in.

In my eyes the change is great and all, i know it exists but i find it nowhere near reliable enough to be a real solution.

 

[Eldrath]

For those interested:

When spamming left click you get off 9 hits in 10 seconds when hitting a target and only 6 when missing - so it´s a 50% increase. The increase should be less with fully charged swings, since the charge timer stays the same.

 

[ThaBadMan]

this is extremly scary to read tbh

Anyone find it very scary as i do when they say their combat core features are here and complete and they gonna go on others aspects of the game ? Im very worried about henrik thinking there is no issue with combat and imo, the things a lot of us are waiting like combat move and stuff like that should be actually in this"core combat"
Saying it is mostly impossible to notice diff between EU and US is also a blatant lie
Are they going the lie publicity road again?
@Henrik Nyström

why make it way prettier than what it is ?

While the network and latencies issues did improve greatly, the combat is severely lacking diversity atm and favorising the parry turtling more than ever, like ever, even when it was top mechanik in MO it was less parry lands than it is on MO2

I agree.

I feel this combat alpha has been mostly wasted effort.

These months have done nothing for combat and imo we are further away from a good solid combat now than after first patch.
Imo these months has been the old MO walking in circles development. Going back and forth instead of steadily going one direction with feedback to guide along.
We have had way to much of the whole "Lets try this out even though we know the results and they being worse than currently but lets try it anyway just because this is combat alpha and what alpha is about".

And I feel the 2 week between patches is wrong in combat focused testing where much of patches is simply change this number into this and see the result and rinse repeat.
Which means instead of 1 day testing and most testers log off for 13 days to test another day. And you miss out on having 5 patches with easy changes and 5 days of testing a week.

 

[Rorry]

I agree.

I feel this combat alpha has been mostly wasted effort.

These months have done nothing for combat and imo we are further away from a good solid combat now than after first patch.
Imo these months has been the old MO walking in circles development. Going back and forth instead of steadily going one direction with feedback to guide along.
We have had way to much of the whole "Lets try this out even though we know the results and they being worse than currently but lets try it anyway just because this is combat alpha and what alpha is about".

And I feel the 2 week between patches is wrong in combat focused testing where much of patches is simply change this number into this and see the result and rinse repeat.
Which means instead of 1 day testing and most testers log off for 13 days to test another day. And you miss out on having 5 patches with easy changes and 5 days of testing a week.

Seriously? From an American perspective the way combat is right now is better than it has ever been, in MO2 or MO 1. Europeans are just feeling the loss of their MASSIVE advantage.

 

[Teknique]

I agree.

I feel this combat alpha has been mostly wasted effort.

These months have done nothing for combat and imo we are further away from a good solid combat now than after first patch.
Imo these months has been the old MO walking in circles development. Going back and forth instead of steadily going one direction with feedback to guide along.
We have had way to much of the whole "Lets try this out even though we know the results and they being worse than currently but lets try it anyway just because this is combat alpha and what alpha is about".

And I feel the 2 week between patches is wrong in combat focused testing where much of patches is simply change this number into this and see the result and rinse repeat.
Which means instead of 1 day testing and most testers log off for 13 days to test another day. And you miss out on having 5 patches with easy changes and 5 days of testing a week.

Seriously? From an American perspective the way combat is right now is better than it has ever been, in MO2 or MO 1. Europeans are just feeling the loss of their MASSIVE advantage.

I'm somewhere in between both opinions. You'll never convince Henrik to go back to this.

And honestly none of us can really blame him for that.

I watched one of my old videos from a couple patches ago and it felt like fighting seizure robots how fast everything looked compared to now.

There's no doubt that the game is way different now.

I'd like to see how other NA players feel about it other than yourself. I suspect they'd like it as well. Given that there doesn't seem to be many NA players on the forums though that might be hard to get a read on.

 

[ThaBadMan]

Seriously? From an American perspective the way combat is right now is better than it has ever been, in MO2 or MO 1. Europeans are just feeling the loss of their MASSIVE advantage.

Yes seriously. The biggest progress we have got since the start is ping normalization and it basically did nothing. It made the same players be int he same spot yet decrease the ceiling by 10%. The decrease in player skill usage makes the ping normalization useless in my eyes.

The game got alot slower movement wise, attack and parry wise so I think thats what you americans are really feeling from this patch or else the effect of ping normalization would be more severe in favor of medium pingers and especially against lower pingers who now from your American feedback so far should have way more trouble than they have since the patch.

Low pingers still dont play the entire animation, they still can parry while attacking and will still teleport slightly in combat when turning.
Europeans have not been nerfed in any way shape or form.
All in all, the best EUs are still on the top no problem and the top American players got slightly nerfed because of the slower combat.

I'm somewhere in between both opinions. You'll never convince Henrik to go back to this.

And honestly none of us can really blame him for that.

I watched one of my old videos from a couple patches ago and it felt like fighting seizure robots how fast everything looked compared to now.

There's no doubt that the game is way different now.

I'd like to see how other NA players feel about it other than yourself. I suspect they'd like it as well. Given that there doesn't seem to be many NA players on the forums though that might be hard to get a read on.

No he wont, its MO all over again on that one. Starting off promising old players they have lerned and will go for MOs original vision this time. Starts off in a good spot, gets feedback and makes the game faster paced to positive feedback to gain supporters buying the game with the 150$ package, only to steadily doubble down and turn it into the grandpa speed MO became.
He does not want a fast paced skill based MMO, he just want the crowd to buy into his game by promising them the game of their dreams to crush it shortly after gaining buyers.

They use every excuse that worked back in 2010 to go away from their promises over and over while fanbois are eating up the bad excuses thats not there.

Yes I watched my first videos again and damn they look so much better than the slow shit we have now.

I must say I like these much better for sure.

 

[Eldrath]

Europeans have not been nerfed in any way shape or form.

Yes, they have. Now counters from EU players can be parried by high ping players. Before there were swing that were simply unblockable because of the latency. In a game that relies on counter trading that is a big deal IMO.

 

[Bernfred]

I must say I like these much better for sure.

its good to pose your personal opinion but from a game designer point of view he needs to think about every gameplay aspect and the whole player base.

i had much more success as an EU citizen a few patches ago. the fights are much more difficult for me right now. i fought with fast weapons most people couldnt block and at the beginning it was fun because i thougt it was fair. my reflexes are slightly above average.
every human being has a reflex threshold which is genetical inherent and depends also on your mood. most people have around 220ms, some pros have around 150ms https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime . these guys have the ability to play FPS games professionel.

that means you need to find the point where the average joe can react to the average ivan.

 

[Apocryphal]

This sounds good on paper, but what happens in game is that heavy weapons become the norm and no one bothers to block. (And then mounted combat comes along and there is nothing someone on foot can do.)

That is adressable by how you choose to scale the parry damage in relation to weapon size and speed.

 

[Rorry]

Yes seriously. The biggest progress we have got since the start is ping normalization and it basically did nothing. It made the same players be int he same spot yet decrease the ceiling by 10%. The decrease in player skill usage makes the ping normalization useless in my eyes.

It did much more than nothing, I can now hold my own against many Europeans, whereas before ping normalization a newb who figured out how to choose which direction to parry could parry every hit I tried and then hit right through my block with his riposte.

The game got alot slower movement wise, attack and parry wise so I think thats what you americans are really feeling from this patch or else the effect of ping normalization would be more severe in favor of medium pingers and especially against lower pingers who now from your American feedback so far should have way more trouble than they have since the patch.

I would be happy for them to speed everything up to see which has changed things, I would like it to be fast as long as I can parry and not get hit through blocks. I think also that early on there was something that slowed down the swing of higher ping players, I could not swing as fast as you do in your videos at the beginning, so I think that this combat doesn't seem very much slower at all to me. Movement does seem a lot slower though.

Low pingers still dont play the entire animation, they still can parry while attacking and will still teleport slightly in combat when turning.
Europeans have not been nerfed in any way shape or form.
All in all, the best EUs are still on the top no problem and the top American players got slightly nerfed because of the slower combat.

The best Europeans may still be on top, but overall Eu's got nerfed and many that I fight are not at the top and it is good to be able compete.

No he wont, its MO all over again on that one. Starting off promising old players they have lerned and will go for MOs original vision this time. Starts off in a good spot, gets feedback and makes the game faster paced to positive feedback to gain supporters buying the game with the 150$ package, only to steadily doubble down and turn it into the grandpa speed MO became.
He does not want a fast paced skill based MMO, he just want the crowd to buy into his game by promising them the game of their dreams to crush it shortly after gaining buyers.

They use every excuse that worked back in 2010 to go away from their promises over and over while fanbois are eating up the bad excuses thats not there.

Yes I watched my first videos again and damn they look so much better than the slow shit we have now.

I must say I like these much better for sure.

 

[Svaar]

New players should not be bothered by the technical aspects of the game, as people come to the game for fun and relaxation (after school, work, etc.). They are ready to pay money for this pleasure. I totally agree with "the bad man" that the fight looks very slow right now (swing, no dynamic block, power shot timer, etc.). I am a tester and I will not compare MO 2 with MO1, since I have long lost the experience of the first part of the game and there will be many new people like me. And believe me, they don't care what the fight was like in the first part of the game. If they fall asleep during the battle and do not receive a dose of adrenaline in massive battles, and not in a 1v1 duel, then soon you will receive an outflow of new players in MO2 and there will be no progress in the arrival of new people. people will enter the game, try and leave (if they are not satisfied) and no matter what kind of work was done by the developers .. no one will pay attention to it.

peace for everyone ✌

 

[Rorry]

New players should not be bothered by the technical aspects of the game, as people come to the game for fun and relaxation (after school, work, etc.). They are ready to pay money for this pleasure. I totally agree with "the bad man" that the fight looks very slow right now (swing, no dynamic block, power shot timer, etc.). I am a tester and I will not compare MO 2 with MO1, since I have long lost the experience of the first part of the game and there will be many new people like me. And believe me, they don't care what the fight was like in the first part of the game. If they fall asleep during the battle and do not receive a dose of adrenaline in massive battles, and not in a 1v1 duel, then soon you will receive an outflow of new players in MO2 and there will be no progress in the arrival of new people. people will enter the game, try and leave (if they are not satisfied) and no matter what kind of work was done by the developers .. no one will pay attention to it.

peace for everyone ✌

You think more people will stick around if they are being hit through their blocks? The game will not succeed without non-Europeans. EU's by my estimate only make up 1/4 to 1/3 of players (if the ratio is similar to MO1, you can bet SV knows for sure.) Still, I hope and think they can speed it back up a little without problem.

 

[Svaar]

You think more people will stick around if they are being hit through their blocks? The game will not succeed without non-Europeans. EU's by my estimate only make up 1/4 to 1/3 of players (if the ratio is similar to MO1, you can bet SV knows for sure.) Still, I hope and think they can speed it back up a little without problem.

You do not understand what idea I want to convey. If you run after two hares, you will catch neither. You reference the first part of the game all the time. Which is fundamentally wrong. If the developers make the second part as a remake and a game for fans of the first part of the game, then everything is clear, with this approach, only MO1 players with a small infusion of new players will play in MO2. If the developers make MO2 taking into account the fact that many new players should come, then this is another moment, and we must immediately make the game with this in mind.

 

[Rorry]

You do not understand what idea I want to convey. If you run after two hares, you will catch neither. You reference the first part of the game all the time. Which is fundamentally wrong. If the developers make the second part as a remake and a game for fans of the first part of the game, then everything is clear, with this approach, only MO1 players with a small infusion of new players will play in MO2. If the developers make MO2 taking into account the fact that many new players should come, then this is another moment, and we must immediately make the game with this in mind.

I understand, but disagree. They must meet in the middle as even a new player who never played MO1 will want a chance to be competitive.